Suicide- Should it be discussed openly.

AckwelFoley · 15-09-2009 11:26pm

Slugs wrote: »

You don't know that mate. I know you're not trying to make a statement out of it, but I just wanted to comment on that. You don't know what the so-called "afterlife", if there even is one, is going to bring. Neither do I (I'm hoping Valhalla ^^)

.

What ever it is, its not life, due to its self defining name "after" life

Sucide affects your life, and loss there of.

Pedantic, yes i know

Sharpshooter · 15-09-2009 11:26pm

stepbar wrote: »

Words fail to describe how retarded I think your opinion is.
---

stepbar apologies for shortening your post but there is no point in quoting irish_bob as he cannot answer.

pablomakaveli · 15-09-2009 11:27pm

stepbar wrote: »

Suicide is definatly a very touchy issue. I will never understand why someone takes the ultimate step and ends their life. Never. Perhaps, some are depressed (and god know I should know enough about how depression can effect a family). But you can't put it all down to depression.

My take on suicide is that it can never be an acceptable way out of life. It causes so much sorrow and pain to family and friends. IMO it's a very cowardly and selfish way out. You've got to hold people to some basic standards and the basic standard I would believe in is the right and respect of life. If we start accepting suicide as being an acceptable way out of lifes problems, we might as well open the floodgates.

While suicide should never be considered an acceptable option (maybe bar euthanasia for the terminally ill but thats a debate for another thread) i don't think its fair to call people who do it cowards or selfish.

You said you can't understand why someone would do it but if you were in their state of mind where they believe there is no escape from their pain or misery it may seem like there only option.

I think the whole selfish cowards label only stigmatizes it further. Think about it. If a friend heard you saying that you thought people who commited suicide were selfish cowards do you think they would feel comfortable approaching you for help if they did have suicidal feelings.

schumacher · 15-09-2009 11:27pm

snyper wrote: »

First rule of fight club. You dont discuss moderators decisions..

...wait that makes no sence..

Point being, take it to feedback if you feel ill'ed by the decision.

My issue with Bob, is that his opinions dont make sence and points he present as facts are, well not accurate.

Hitler had an opinion, we dont have to respect it (im not contrasting bob to the kraut) but i hope you see my point

Point seen but to Bob Im sure his opinions make sense. Theres probably loads of opinion here that dont make sense to him. Im not saying I agree with Bob but who can decide whos opinions make sense? IMO no opinion should take precedent (cant think of another word) over another.

Euro_Kraut · 15-09-2009 11:28pm

snyper wrote: »

.......... (im not contrasting bob to the kraut) ...........

:mad: You better not be!!!

Regards,

The_Kraut

docmol · 15-09-2009 11:29pm

If someone takes the considered view that they don't want to continue living, who are we to stop them? I'm not talking about a spur of the moment thing (my partner left me, I can't go on) but a decision reached over time and with reflection (maybe even talked over with open-minded friends/family) Strangely enough, admiting suicidal thoughts can legally have you detained/drugged/electrocuted without legal recourse, on the say of a couple of psychiatrists. Strange that some people with suicidal thoughts don't seek psychiatric help...

AckwelFoley · 15-09-2009 11:30pm

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

:mad: You better not be!!!

lol

different Kraut!!

Honest!

Darlughda · 15-09-2009 11:32pm

I suspect the suffering endured by the people who are family and friends to a person who suicides, is as remote from anybody's comprehension as is the mind of a suicidal person.

Indeed the reprimand of selfishness to the opionion of a potentially suicidal person may well cause a reaction of withdrawing into one's defensive shell.

Euro_Kraut · 15-09-2009 11:33pm

snyper wrote: »

lol

different Kraut!!

Honest!

Ok, alles in Ordnung.

stepbar · 15-09-2009 11:36pm

pablomakaveli wrote: »

While suicide should never be considered an acceptable option (maybe bar euthanasia for the terminally ill but thats a debate for another thread) i don't think its fair to call people who do it cowards or selfish.

You said you can't understand why someone would do it but if you were in their state of mind where they believe there is no escape from their pain or misery it may seem like there only option.

I think the whole selfish cowards label only stigmatizes it further. Think about it. If a friend heard you saying that you thought people who commited suicide were selfish cowards do you think they would feel comfortable approaching you for help if they did have suicidal feelings.

I'm sorry but misery is having to walk 20 miles for fresh water, Misery is knowing that it could be a week until your next meal. We have it good truth be told.

Lucky enough my friends all know if any of us had a problem we could talk about it. And if a friend did come to me with suicidal thoughts, I would litterally beg them to get help or talk about it. If I was any sort of friend, I would definatly make it clear that suicide was not the way out.

Elessar · 15-09-2009 11:37pm

snyper wrote: »

It can be almost impossible to tell if someone is suffering inside.

The single biggest thing i hear from people when talking about somone that committed sucide was "jez, i was chatting him in the pub on friday night and he seemed in great form"

This may seem the case, however i can distintly remember shortly before i was admitted to Mullingar psychiatric hospital in 2007 after being admitted with Bi polar depression, i foolishly tried to hide from my problems by going out and getting drunk on a saturday night with some friends. I had an absolute blast of a time, i was for all intensive purposes the centre of attention among our group of friends, all jokes, all chat - looked like i was care free, however, inside below the superficial jokes and laughing i felt like i had cancer eating me inside... i vividly remember dropping home a young woman i was with that night,getting her number to meet up again and waiting to hail a taxi, it hit me like a wet blanket all of a sudden the feeling of despair, similar to the feeling i had for weeks prior to now, but now exasperated by the drink. I began crying uncontrolably.. and as i can do because im lucky, called one of my sisters, she collected me and brought me home to her house.

Within one month i almost committed suicide, pure chance and circumstance prevented it (my sister rang me hysterically, somehow knowing what i was up to just as i was retrieving the rifle from the boot of the jeep down at portlick wood)

I now thank god (a god i dont believe exists ) that im alive for what i have now.. bugger all has changed in my life circumstances apart from meeting my fiance - but i suppose the point im making is that, you just cant tell if someone is hurting inside.

Thats why i am so sickened by the loss of Darren, its i knowing how he felt inside, and knowing that he would look back on how he was feeling in a few years like i do now, and feeling the same as i do - happy to be alive and a world calss spammer of AH or as would be in his case a World champion Boxer...he'd earn more money, but the cake is better here!

I don't understand, are you happy or indifferent at still being alive? What took those feelings of despair away? Or was it just a bad day?

Slugs · 15-09-2009 11:43pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

I do understand what you're saying. While it saddens me, I do understand that there are people out there who will never be happy or satisfied, who after receiving all available help still want to end it all because they find life to be that painful. I can't empathise, as I have never felt anything close to this, but I can sympathise and try to understand.

However there are also plenty of people who attempt suicide who do go on to regret it a few years later, and who go on to live long and fulfilling lives. These people are the reason why I believe suicide discussion and prevention are so important.

However, there're also people who after being saved from suicide, didn't want to come back, and reattempted it, finally succeeding.

Thanks though for an intelligent. Was expecting first reply to be from some Zealot in the words of:- ZOMFG U FKIN FKBAG. U SHUD GTF0 THE INTERWEB5 AND K111 Y0S31F!

Dudess · 15-09-2009 11:45pm

stepbar wrote: »

I'm sorry but misery is having to walk 20 miles for fresh water, Misery is knowing that it could be a week until your next meal. We have it good truth be told.

A person who doesn't have a crap diet and who exercises can succumb to type A diabetes... in the same way, a person whose life circumstances are very fortunate can succumb to depression. It's an illness. Telling people with depression that they should count themselves lucky is akin to goading a person with type A diabetes into eating a Mars - it won't do them any good... in fact it will probably make things a bit worse.

Kalashnikov_Kid · 15-09-2009 11:47pm

My 2 cents:

Yes of course suicide should be talked about only. But there is a caveat to this - it should never be glamourised or even be construed as a rational decision.

It is never a rational decision - it is usually the tragic culmination of an untreated, mis-diagnosed or ignored mental health issue.

Ignorance and the "taboo" image of suicide in this country is the real tragedy here. The fact that many young people don't feel that they can talk to anyone about their problems is a primary cause for suicide in many cases.

It is appaling that many parts of Ireland to this day still employ a 19th Century attitude towards mental health.

deadhead13 · 15-09-2009 11:47pm

stepbar wrote: »

I'm sorry but misery is having to walk 20 miles for fresh water, Misery is knowing that it could be a week until your next meal. We have it good truth be told.

Misery is also clinical depression and it is relentless.

pablomakaveli · 15-09-2009 11:50pm

stepbar wrote: »

I'm sorry but misery is having to walk 20 miles for fresh water, Misery is knowing that it could be a week until your next meal. We have it good truth be told.

Lucky enough my friends all know if any of us had a problem we could talk about it. And if a friend did come to me with suicidal thoughts, I would litterally beg them to get help or talk about it. If I was any sort of friend, I would definatly make it clear that suicide was not the way out.

Misery for a person can also be feeling completely alone or rejected. Being bullied or made to feel worthless. It does'nt necessaarily have to be physical suffering as mental suffering can be just as bad.

And i'm glad to see you'd be there for you friends if they needed help but i still think calling suicide victims selfish cowards stigmatizes suicide and is something said in ignorance.

Local-womanizer · 15-09-2009 11:50pm

Snyper said it best about it being a rational decsion taken by an irrational mind.Why should a person be stigmatized for what they see is their only escape?After all,sucide I'am sure is not something attempted on a whim.

I could never imagine what its like to have such thoughts(thankfully),but I know that means that I am not immune to them.The human mind is a powerful thing and should never be underestimated.

philologos · 15-09-2009 11:51pm

Kalashnikov_Kid wrote: »

Yes of course suicide should be talked about only. But there is a caveat to this - it should never be glamourised or even be construed as a rational decision.

The only issue in having such an understanding would be with the pro-euthanasia camp. If one supports euthanasia / assisted suicide, people will start to think, why can't I just do it myself?

docmol · 15-09-2009 11:51pm

Is depression always an illness? Can it not also be a reaction to circumstances? Extreme example: if you were black in mississippi in the colonial days, your "depression" could be considered a normal reaction to the horrible circumstances you have to endure. A "cure" is completely beyond your abilites and there really is no light at the end of the tunnel.

asterix · 15-09-2009 11:53pm

Good thread.
The consensus seems to be that suicide is by its nature a complex, difficult and not easily resolvable issue but that, whatever your take on it, it's good to talk and, of course, it always is.
The only legitimate concern with talking about it, as I see it at any rate, is that talk may lead to copycat suicides. However, the reality with copycat suicide seems to be that there is passive observation of the suicide of another, and perhaps the method of suicide, but in an awful vacuum of silence and lack of discussion on the issue of suicide more generally and the very real alternatives to taking one's life.
Thus the "copy-catter" is simply saying to themselves "that's the way out for me" as opposed to making up their mind as a result of an open and sincere discussion of suicide and the alternatives thereto.
There was a dreadful spate of suicides involving young people in a town in Wales last year and into this year. The media became afraid to report on it for fear that they would cause further "copycat" suicides.
But it seems to me that the concern was wrong-headed. It's not talking about suicide that exacerbates the issue (and I mean talking in a positive, lets-try-and-prevent-it sense) but, rather, reporting it directly or indirectly(it's almost worse to use disingenuous language like "in tragic circumstances" as everyone knows what is meant and the failure to call a spade a spade suggests that what is involved is utterly shameful and unspeakable - a real boon for anyone in the depths of despair), as happened with poor Darren Sutherland, and then failing to talk about it with a view to trying to prevent it.
There was a seriously good 3 parter on RTE earler this year on suicide, called "I See A Darkness". It made for compelling viewing. All the various "they're so brave", "they're so cowardly" schools of thought were gently deconstructed into a simple enough line of: a person who is countenancing sucide believes they have no other option.
But of course there is always another option.
It's good to talk.

Slugs · 15-09-2009 11:53pm

And why shouldn't they be allowed to. I mean isn't suicide actually a prosecutable offence? Same for euthenasia and assisted suicide.

"Oh look, we're sorry you're *insert relative friend here* was so upset and depressed with their perception of reality that they decided to end it, couldn't do it, and needed your help, but look, it's illegal so eh... ya we're charging you for it."

The Big Red Button · 15-09-2009 11:55pm

Slugs wrote: »

However, there're also people who after being saved from suicide, didn't want to come back, and reattempted it, finally succeeding.

This sounds quite crude, and I apologise for it in advance.

If you attempt suicide and do not succeed, you can always try again.

If you attempt suicide and do succeed, you cannot try again at life.

Again, I do apologise to anyone reading this who may have been affected by suicide.

My point is that suicide prevention should be a paramount concern. It is better to presume that a suicidal person can be saved and can go on to live a long and fulfilling life, than to presume that a suicidal person is better off dead.

Suicidal thoughts are often caused by depression. Depression is often treatable through medication. Sure, there are exceptions to this, but - well, if someone is determined enough they'll do it eventually. In my opinion, all other options (e.g. medication, counselling etc.) should be explored first.

Samaritans - completely anonymous, and I have no personal affiliation - 1850609090

Slugs · 15-09-2009 11:58pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

This sounds quite crude, and I apologise for it in advance.

If you attempt suicide and do not succeed, you can always try again.

If you attempt suicide and do succeed, you cannot try again at life.

Again, I do apologise to anyone reading this who may have been affected by suicide.

My point is that suicide prevention should be a paramount concern. It is better to presume that a suicidal person can be saved and can go on to live a long and fulfilling life, than to presume that a suicidal person is better off dead.

Suicidal thoughts are often caused by depression. Depression is often treatable through medication. Sure, there are exceptions to this, but - well, if someone is determined enough they'll do it eventually. In my opinion, all other options (e.g. medication, counselling etc.) should be explored first.

Samaritans - completely anonymous, and I have no personal affiliation - 1850609090

Of course it's not crude

It's a discussion

And don't apoligise to people. If they lacked the abilities to differentiate an opinion or thought from a blatant insult, then maybe they should seek help

But aye completely agree. I just think that if you've helped a person to the best of their ability, then what more can you do

philologos · 15-09-2009 11:59pm

Slugs wrote: »

And why shouldn't they be allowed to. I mean isn't suicide actually a prosecutable offence? Same for euthenasia and assisted suicide.

How can suicide be an offence if the perpetrator is deceased? - It's impossible to legislate against suicide.

stepbar · 15-09-2009 11:59pm

Dudess wrote: »

A person who doesn't have a crap diet and who exercises can succumb to type A diabetes... in the same way, a person whose life circumstances are very fortunate can succumb to depression. It's an illness. Telling people with depression that they should count themselves lucky is akin to goading a person with type A diabetes into eating a Mars - it won't do them any good... in fact it will probably make things a bit worse.

I know it's an illness. My mum has been depressed half of her life. I know you can't tell someone who is depressed to snap out of it. I know that. And it kills me to know that the way she feels because sometime I feel like screaming, get some more help, take up a hobby, do something, ANYTHING!!!!. But I can't. I know I can't. And fcuk me she tries, tries real hard. Takes her pills to make her better. And for the most part they make her better. I'm glad that there's medicine out there that can help. The point to what I'm saying is that whilst there's misery, they're always someone out there in a worse suitation or prediciment. People who are depressed, feeling sucidal whatever, have to be constantly reminded of that (there's always worse suitations) or they'll just slip into a sence of hopelessness and start believing that they're not worthy of a presence in the world.

Mars Bar · 16-09-2009 12:00am

Great thread.

Of course it should be discussed.
The day before yesterday, one of my friends would have been, and should have been, enjoying his 18th birthday. Instead, he is 15 and will forever be 15 years of age to us. Should have started college last week. He was the least guy we would have expected to take his own life.

The same way a lot of people didn't think Darren Sutherland would take his own life with such bright prospects ahead of him.

I hate September, it's a month I associate with death.

Slugs · 16-09-2009 12:00am

Jakkass wrote: »

How can suicide be an offence if the perpetrator is deceased? - It's impossible to legislate against suicide.

Well let's see, can you not be charged for "attempted murder" or "intention to commit crime". Couldn't it be applied to "attempted suicide". I'm sure in some country it is :P. Don't take it for a statement. if someone can prove me wrong, I'll step back

AckwelFoley · 16-09-2009 12:01am

docmol wrote: »

Is depression always an illness? Can it not also be a reaction to circumstances? Extreme example: if you were black in mississippi in the colonial days, your "depression" could be considered a normal reaction to the horrible circumstances you have to endure. A "cure" is completely beyond your abilites and there really is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Depression and clinical depression are related as is my football boot and the boot of my car.. pretty much by name only.

Thats one of Clinical depressions biggest problem, the feeling people have that they are whingers and "sure we all get sad" reactions from others.

Ive posted it before, ill post it again..

The feeling of Depression most people get is "sh1te, united lost at the weekend, i spent fortune in the pub and can remember none of it and i think on top of that im goding to lose my job"

Clinical depression feels like... "My mother, father, sister, brother, best friend, my only child and wife were all killed in a freak road accident yesterday" Imagine that feeling inside, and have to live with it now and again for most of your adult life sometimes for weeks on end, and even when you dont feel like that, knowing it will come back.

CatacombKittens · 16-09-2009 12:03am

I remember seeing on another forum(Thumped) a link to a thread here where someone was at the end of their rope, and posted a suicidal thread.

A moderator(Thaedydal) locked the thread, telling them this wasn't the place(depsite the being the Personal Issues forum) and to contact the "Professionals"(Note: The Samiratans are volunteers). I think this is some twist of Board's policy not to give out "medical advice".

It's very possible that was the only conduit that person had and that moderator's actions could have pushed them over the edge.

I thought that was really shameful, and would like to think we'd stop electing sociopaths as moderators. Forum rules shouldn't come before human life.

I just thought I'd point this out since I noted a few mods thanking the original post of this thread. If you really believe Suicide is a serious issue, then sort this ****e out.

RealEstateKing · 16-09-2009 12:06am

It's high in Ireland for several reasons: The main thing is that we come from a quite traditional, Catholic, repressed Northern European society, with a good deal of the old British "Stiff Upper Lip" mixed into us, making it very difficult for people, particularly men, to express negative emotions in public: Many men in Ireland can live an entire lifetime without ever developing a friend they can actually tell about their problems.

Secondly, we have imposed an American-style Capitalist, individualistic, lifestyle-obsessed culture on top of this one in the past 20-odd years. The two do not necessarily sit very well with each other.

The competitive American type of culture works reasonably well, if one lives in an advanced industrial economy like America where the sky is the limit, where you can simply pack up and move on when things don't work out for you. Ireland, even at the height of the Celtic Tiger, is by neccessity a land of limited opportunites: Not only is it small, it is also a country that it is very hard to better yourself in. If you're born a "knacker" from Finglas, it is hard to ever move up, the odds are stacked against you. Ireland is like a small town where everybody knows everybody else, it is not an easy place to reinvent yourself in.

In a sense the good side of our traditional culture was that it designed itself to deal with this reality: Irish culture was very good at commisseration, and very good at comforting the unhappy - we threw this away to chase American-style optimism and success - while ignoring that this dream was only a reality for a very small number of us. The rest were simply made to feel more like losers than they ever had before.

And that's without mentioning the weather, which lets face it, is also a major reason for this: We have what is probably the least amount of direct sunshine of any inhabited place in the world: Sure Scandinavian countries/Canada etc, get dark and cold winters and all, but at least they have a nice warm, sunny, Summer to look forward to. We just have endless grey nothingness. From what I can see, we get more sun in the Winter now than we do in the Summer. Though this is probably not the major cause of suicide, I'm sure it plays a part.

Suicide- Should it be discussed openly.

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