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Should we go Nuclear?

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I remember them well and I was anti nuclear myself and now I see it as a least worst solution . Lovelock convinced me !

    Some of us have moved on Judgement .


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Measure Twice


    Or bamboozle them with info from wikipedia and other sources until they are docile - a bit like the Lisbon treaty. Of course many of the contributors to this thread were probably not on solid food at the time of Chernobyl, Three Mile Island etc and others have short memories. :D

    Sorry Judgement Day - I wasn't trying to bamboozle anyone to docility, and apologies if it came across that way.

    Of all the western-type reactors, the only major incident was at Three Mile Island, as you refer to above (nobody in the west would use a Chernobyl-type design of reactor, so this is not relevant to an Irish situation). In the TMI incident - indeed in the entire history of US nuclear energy reactors - there was not a single death or injury.

    What there has been was a secure and reliable supply of relatively cheap, low-carbon power, along with secure jobs and good infrastructure. I would just like this for Ireland to offer my children a better future than it currently looks like they will have here.

    Instead, we have the appalling situation where it is against the law in Ireland to generate electricity by nuclear fission.

    I would be very curious to see the results of a Poll on that issue - Should Ireland remove the ban on nuclear generation?

    What do you think?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The TMI core meltdown was contained ...in the containment designed to contain it .

    nyway TMI was a gen 2 reactor with inferior design standards and fault indicator instrumentation and not a gen 3 plus version which is what we would build or have built for us . Nearly apples and oranges in design terms .


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Measure Twice


    Spot on, Sponge Bob!

    The Westinghouse IRIS reactor is a gen 3 Plus, super-safe and affordable 335 MW machine. As I mentioned earlier, it is being seriously considered by Estonia, Lithuania and Brazil, and now Mexico and others are looking at it. So should we!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Sorry Judgement Day - I wasn't trying to bamboozle anyone to docility, and apologies if it came across that way.

    Of all the western-type reactors, the only major incident was at Three Mile Island, as you refer to above (nobody in the west would use a Chernobyl-type design of reactor, so this is not relevant to an Irish situation). In the TMI incident - indeed in the entire history of US nuclear energy reactors - there was not a single death or injury.

    What there has been was a secure and reliable supply of relatively cheap, low-carbon power, along with secure jobs and good infrastructure. I would just like this for Ireland to offer my children a better future than it currently looks like they will have here.

    Instead, we have the appalling situation where it is against the law in Ireland to generate electricity by nuclear fission.

    I would be very curious to see the results of a Poll on that issue - Should Ireland remove the ban on nuclear generation?

    What do you think?

    Poll away it will make no difference, the idiots that run this country will do as they please. If some FF/FG muck savage can make money out of Nuclear power we will have it whatever the cost - financial or environmental. As for TMI, my understanding of the situation is that it was only good luck that things did not get completely out-of-hand. Once the reactor core goes into total meltdown and the uranium fuel rods liquify they are capable of penetrating through the 'containment' and on reaching groundwater would cause massive explosions resulting in widespread contamination. The clean-up at TMI, still incomplete, has cost well over one billion US$ - don't we have enough problems?

    Like you I worry about the future and how my children will manage as world resources start to run down but I don't feel nuclear is the way to go. No point in saying more as I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to discuss the topic in any depth.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    serfboard wrote: »
    I was watching David McWilliams on the telly last night, and he was looking at a Pebble Bed Reactor in China. This technology is still being researched, but it seems like much safer fission technology than currently exists.

    ffs why dont you google this technology

    the first pebble bed reactor was build 40 years ago

    and ran safely for 20 years

    in Germany


    its not new and it is safe


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    anyways good thread

    firstly disclaimer i worked in power generation here in ireland

    ESB wont go for it, simply because alot of people would loose jobs (you dont need 10,000 running 1 plant)
    but with the engineers i spoke, alot were very pro nuclear and always giving out how unpredictable wind is


    i think a nuclear plant producing 40%, wind another 40%-60% and gas plants to pick up the slack at peak or low wind times would be perfect for the country, along with more connectors

    ive been to moneypoint and other plants, this country is far from green as long as these places continue to burn mountains of dirty fuel, ironically there are few wind turbines few miles from moneypoint producing few MW when its windy (and they dont work when its too windy btw) compared to the huge size of moneypoint one would need thousands of these taking up huge amounts of land just to replace moneypoint, and at great cost may i add

    ive also been to turlogh hill, i found the spirit of ireland presentation interesting, but seriously they very much underestimate the cost of their proposals, pumped storage is very very expensive :(


    so overall i am pro nuclear, no im not against renewables, but im being pragmatic and a realist and i seen how the industry works

    i would rather live close to new nuclear plant (most of the population already do) than close to coal/oil/turf burning monstrocities

    i would rather have a mix of nuclear + wind than fuels + wind as we have now

    and no, wind will never solve our problems on its own

    my 2 cent :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭serfboard


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    ffs why dont you google this technology

    the first pebble bed reactor was build 40 years ago

    and ran safely for 20 years

    in Germany

    its not new and it is safe

    Why don't you read my post first before jumping up and down about it?

    I did Google it and linked to Wikipedia as well, (there I've just done it for you again).

    From that Wikipedia article:
    The technology was first developed in Germany but political and economic decisions were made to abandon the technology. In various forms, it is currently under development by MIT, the South African company PBMR, General Atomics (U.S.), the Dutch company Romawa B.V., Adams Atomic Engines [1], Idaho National Laboratory, and the Chinese company Huaneng.[3] In June 2004, it was announced that a new PBMR would be built at Koeberg, South Africa by Eskom, the government-owned electrical utility.[4] There is opposition to the PBMR from groups such as Koeberg Alert and Earthlife Africa, the latter of which has sued Eskom to stop development of the project.[5] In September 2009 the demonstration power plant was postponed indefinitely.[6]

    If you know more about it, and have links to back it up, why not post them and/or modify the Wikipedia page?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭Azelfafage


    BluntGuy wrote: »

    (Fission) Nuclear waste has an enormous half-life. It can take up to 10,000 years (or much longer) for it to reduce its radioactivity by a factor of 2. Waste that was dumped into the sea (in a "secure" container) less than 50 years ago has already leaked. Somebody tell me how we plan to keep this waste from leaking for 10000-20000 years?

    Nuclear energurse temperature required to actual generate the energy.
    .


    Utterly Fatuous argument.


    The Poison..........Lead.......... lasts FOREVER.
    The Poison .........Arsenic .......lasts FOREVER


    I could go on.

    Bring on the nuclear reactors.




    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    What about this story on slashdot about a Uranium shortage?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    More detail on that scientists viewpoint here. This may be a serious pitch for research wonga for a form or forms of Thorium Reactor as much as anything else because there is a lot of Thorium about , do read . Dittmar is particularly enthusiastic about a concept called an LFTR which is being pushed as a'green' reactor ( I sh1t nobody) see here .

    Another version is viewed as a Plutonium eater , Thorium/Plutonium goes in and something that will not go bang comes out .

    These Thorium fuel cycles have never gotten much traction when Uranium was cheap ( and there is feck all weapons grade plutonium as a 'side effect' not that it is squeaky clean or anything) .......but were Uranium not cheap they might be worth exploring not least like mooted shortages of Liquid Oil arouse massive interest in Canadian Oil Shale .

    The Oil Drum covered the matter in some detail last week , as always I commend the Oil Drum as essential reading on all matters energy :)

    http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/5929


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭Azelfafage


    Of course we should go nuclear.

    Future generations will dig up our waste and say:

    "Thank you".

    Lots of energy in nuclear waste.

    Still hot after 100 Thousand years.


    What can be be better?

    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,208 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    'Moores Law' will make solar better. Correct but useful AFTER the fact not now . Come back in 10 years and a few Moore cycles for a chat taconnel

    Moore's Law is about making transistors smaller. It's completely, utterly and totally irrelevant to photovoltaic power. There are severe theoretical limits on the efficiency of PV cells due to how semiconductors work at a physical level.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 350 ✭✭rubensni


    Azelfafage wrote: »
    Of course we should go nuclear. Future generations will dig up our waste and say: "Thank you".

    That's the very issue we're in at the moment with CO2 being spewed into the environment since the days of James Watt. We don't spend our times cursing them for giving us the industrial revolution, instead we deal with it.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    im not a fan of nuclear for the following reasons
    1. I think there is cleaner, safer, less expensive methods which could generate as much power that the country requires. i.e wind, solar, as well as your bio-diesels
    2. the threat of terrorist attacks
    3. After Chernobyl id be very wary of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,141 ✭✭✭masteroftherealm


    im not a fan of nuclear for the following reasons
    1. I think there is cleaner, safer, less expensive methods which could generate as much power that the country requires. i.e wind, solar, as well as your bio-diesels
    2. the threat of terrorist attacks
    3. After Chernobyl id be very wary of it.

    This opinion is why Ireland will ever go nuclear. All three of these points have been refuted/are not relevant at all.

    I have lived within 20km a a French Reactor (St Laurent) and had no saftey fears. So yes they could build it in my backyard and I wouldn't object. Nuclear is the most suitable tech we have available at the moment.
    We need a nuclear baseload and renewable topping that up to the peak load.

    One reason we don't have a thriving datacenter industry in Ireland is due to a lack of power here, we are missing out on so many opportunities in this country due to lack of infrastructure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭placard


    Yes, we should go nuclear. We should promote the use of renewable energy supported by the use of a reliable and safe - they are very safe these days - nuclear power station.

    First of all we should and are making some progress in insulating and heating our homes and other buildings efficiently which will save allot of energy costs.

    I wouldn't agree with Bio Diesel as a renewable source of energy, it takes more to produce then what is harvested, not to mention the other factors like world food shortage, the clearing of land to produce it etc...

    We should support Solar, Wind and Geo thermal. We should also invest in research in renewable energies.

    Finally I would agree with nuclear as a power source as it is reliable and safe. Yes we would have nuclear waste to deal with but with the advances in the sciences I'll bet we'll find some solution to this problem either by neutralizing or eradicating the waste problem.
    The not in my back garden excuse has for a long time slowed the progress of Ireland's infrastructural development, with regard to nuclear I think it is irrelevant as it is already in our back garden in Britain and they plan to build allot more over the next 15/20 years. We should do the same on a smaller scale.


  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    Days numbered for Lithuanian nuclear plant

    Lithuania is making final preparations to close down one of the world’s largest nuclear reactors, but debate rages about whether it is necessary.

    Shutting down the Ignalina plant by January 2010 was a condition for Lithuania’s entry into the European Union in 2004 over safety concerns.

    But the move has been fiercely opposed by some Lithuanians who claim the risk has been exaggerated and their power prices will now rise.

    The Soviet-era nuclear plant uses the same reactors as those installed in the Chernboyl plant in Ukraine, the site of the world’s worst nuclear accident.

    Lithuania failed to convince Brussels to extend Ignalina’s lifespan, despite a referendum last year in which the majority of voters said yes to running the plant until 2012. The result was not considered binding, however, as the turnout was less than 50 percent.

    The plant’s General Director, Viktor Shevaldin, has argued against the closure. He says international experts have estimated the probability of such a major accident at Ignalina to be very slight.

    Lithuania has begun a search for an investor for the construction of a new power plant, saying it hopes to build it by 2018. But that does not answer the immediate concerns of those worried about the effects of the closure.

    Before the first reactor was closed down in 2004, officials say almost 90 percent of power needs were met by Ignalina. The second reactor was opened in 1987. Decommissioning over 25 years will cost an estimated one billion euros, some one thousand jobs will be lost and some experts predict electricity prices will jump by some 30 percent.

    The European Union is reported to have agreed to pay money towards decommissioning and compensation until 2013. In the meantime, Lithuania plans to import electricity, mainly from Estonia, Russia and Ukraine.

    I saw this on Euronews today, I didn't realise there would be opposition to close a Chernboyl type plant, I can understand why - nobody wants higher prices - but safety first, you would think! I would pity any NIMBY groups that would try to stop the new plant there!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,319 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Nuclear is fantastically expensive on a capital basis. We are on the brink of a major reactor replacement here in Ontario but the cost has the govt scared sh!tless.

    The only way nuclear becomes easy is when you build a lot of similar reactors like the French, the first one or two are hugely costly but by the time you reach 10-12 the unit cost has come way down because of the planning authorities and engineering firms having got their sh!t together. I like the offshoring idea - buy out part of a UK site and contract for the output.

    But realistically if Ireland was to go nuclear natively it should be to replace all baseload power and with the intent to electrify most of the rail network, increase petrol taxes to subsidise plug-in hybrids and aggressively use time of use metering to force the population to use as much power as possible when the nukes are humming at 2 in the morning and not when the gas plants kick in at 8am. However, it would be difficult to avoid a large concentration in the grid, making it vulnerable to disruption.

    One other nuclear option would be to go in with Japan on compact reactors in the 10MW class, especially for grid strengthening in remote areas and/or to backstop renewable plants.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Good points dowlingm

    The 'aggressive' plan to force smart metering and intelligent time of use conditions makes absolute sense but requires smart meters and smart distribution boards instead of dumb trip assemblies and also requires high quality always on broadband to send management directive which service is not available in half of Ireland and more so where the grid is weaker.

    The micronuke for spot generation would be worth exploring if it came on a barge , Ireland like Japan has a long coastline with many weak spots on the grid close to the coast. Canada does too now that I think of it.

    The ESB has leased portable generator sets in the past, certainly early this decade we had four of them in winter 2004 and five of them in 2000 ( two in Mayo and three in Cork)

    I dunno what the story is now.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    im not a fan of nuclear for the following reasons
    1. I think there is cleaner, safer, less expensive methods which could generate as much power that the country requires. i.e wind, solar, as well as your bio-diesels
    2. the threat of terrorist attacks
    3. After Chernobyl id be very wary of it.

    I'm not a ready advocate of nuclear, I oppose it on many grounds (which as far as I remember I've given on this thread).

    However, you're really going to have to expand on this.

    Chernobyl, as it happened, can't happen again because modern reactors would prevent it. Not saying a Chernobyl-style incident with similar effects couldn't occur again, but you have to expand on it.

    As for terrorist attacks, the unforunate reality is you could use that as a reason to oppose any infrastructure or construction. Even though a terrorist attack on a power station could be devestating, the chances are so remote, and it's such a general threat I doubt many people would take it as a serious opposition.

    As for your first point:
    Cleaner, yes.
    Safer, yes.
    Less expensive... now that's the problem area (along with reliability). Wind power/solar power is sadly much more expensive than nuclear power to get to generate the same amount of reliable energy. Now this is where we as a race have to ask ourselves some questions... economy or safety? You'll find economy wins every time.

    Sponge_Bob made a suggestion I agreed with earlier in the thread, using a so-called "clean coal" solution to provide energy along with pumping up renewable production.

    Nuclear fusion is the "holy grail" of nuclear power generation, and I do believe it will happen, but sadly no earlier than 50-100 years from now. But I would rather in that interim, we use any technology that is available and try and keep the fission power plants to an absolute bare minimum, because as much as we may think we have it under control (I won't deny that massive improvements in nuclear safety have been made) - things can go wrong... sometimes catastrophically.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    There's a fascinating thread going at the moment in the Weather forum on solar activity. One post in particular stood out for me. To save people the hassle of having to jump forums, I'll quote it here:
    redsunset wrote: »
    And now to really throw a spanner in the works,here's an article from the mail online,gas how it then concludes that its due but may not happen.im now hoping too that this quiet period we're experiencing isn't the calm before the storm.
    Meltdown! A solar superstorm could send us back into the dark ages - and one is due in just THREE years


    By Michael Hanlon


    Last updated at 11:24 PM on 19th April 2009
    The catastrophe, when it comes, will be beautiful at first. It is a balmy evening in late September 2012. Ever since the sun set, the dimming skies over London have been alive with fire.

    Pillars of incandescent green writhe like gigantic serpents across the skies. Sheets of orange race across the horizon during the most spectacular display of the aurora borealis seen in southern England for 153 years.

    article-1171951-048ABEAF000005DC-343_468x286.jpg Trouble ahead: How the sun storm might look in London

    And then, 90 seconds later, the lights start to go out. Not the lights in the sky - they will dazzle until dawn - but the lights on the ground. Within an hour, large parts of Britain are without power. By midnight, every mobile network is down and the internet is dying. Television - terrestrial and satellite - blinks off the air. Radio is reduced to a burst of static. By noon the following day, it is clear something terrible has happened and the civilised world has plunged into chaos.

    A year later, Britain, most of Europe plus North America is in the grip of the deepest economic catastrophe in history. By the end of 2013, 100,000 Europeans have died of starvation. The dead go unburied, the sick untreated. It will take two decades or more for the first green shoots of recovery to appear - recovery from the first solar superstorm in modern history.

    This catastrophe is not some academic one-in-a-million chance scenario. It is a very real threat which, according to a report in the latest issue of New Scientist, remains one of the most potent, yet least recognised, threats to the future of human civilisation. Moreover, it is something that has happened before - not that long ago - and indeed has the potential to arrive every 11 years.

    So what actually is it?

    Solar storms do not normally cause much concern. Swarms of electrically charged subatomic particles from the Sun periodically buffet the Earth and its surroundings, causing health worries for astronauts and the owners of satellites, whose delicate electronics can be fried.

    But down on the surface, cocooned under an ocean of air, we rarely notice more than the pretty lights in the sky, created as the electrically charged particles from the Sun sweep into the Earth's own magnetic field to generate the Northern and Southern Lights.

    But every now and then, the Sun is convulsed by a gigantic tempest: 50,000-mile-wide eddies of boiling hydrogen plasma on its surface ejecting a billion-tonne, malevolent blob of crackling-charged gas into space at a million miles an hour.

    And, very occasionally, one of these mighty coronal mass ejections, as they are called, smacks into the Earth head-on. This last happened on the morning of September 1, 1859. That day, one of Britain's top astronomers, Richard Carrington, was observing the Sun. Using a filter, he was able to study the solar surface through his telescope, and he saw something unusual. A bright flash of light erupted from the Sun's surface and detached itself from it.

    Unbeknown to Carrington, that bright spot was a cloud of charged plasma on its way to Earth. Just 48 hours later it struck, and the effects were extraordinary. Brilliant aurorae lit the Earth's night skies right down to the Tropics - their light being so brilliant it was possible to read a newspaper at midnight. In California, a group of gold miners were roused from their bed hours early, thinking the dawn and a new day's prospecting had come. It was 2am. Telegraph operators received severe electric shocks as solar-induced currents surged through the networks. It was as though the Earth had been immersed in a bath of electricity.

    Such damage as there was, was easy to repair. In 1859, the world ran mostly on steam and muscle. Human civilisation did not depend on a gargantuan super-network of electric power and communications. But it does now. Electric power is modern society's 'cornerstone technology', the technology on which virtually all other infrastructures and services depend.

    Daniel Baker, a space weather expert at the University of Colorado, prepared a report for the U.S. National Academy of Sciences last month, and the conclusions make grim reading. 'Every year, our human technology becomes more vulnerable,' he says. A repeat of the 1859 Carrington event today would have far graver consequences than the frying of some telegraph wires. The problem comes with our dependence on electricity and the way this electricity is generated and transmitted.

    A huge solar storm would cause massive power surges, amounting to billions of unwanted watts surging through the grids. Most critically, the transformers which convert the multi-thousand-volt current carried by the pylons into 240v domestic current would melt - thousands of them, in every country. This would bring the world to its knees. With no electricity, we would not just be in the dark. We are dependent, to a degree few of us perhaps appreciate, on a functioning grid for our survival. All our water and sewage plants run on electricity. A couple of days after a solar superstorm, the taps would run dry.

    Within a week, we would lose all heat and light as reserves ran out, the supermarket shelves would run empty and the complex supply and distribution networks upon which our society depends would have started to break down. No telephones, no medicines, no manufacturing, no farming - and no food.

    Global communications and travel would also collapse - a solar superstorm would probably destroy the network of GPS satellites upon which every airline depends. Of course, the power grid can be rebuilt, new transformers and cables made, new satellites launched - but organising this in a world teetering on the brink of collapse would not be easy. Humanity would recover, but it would take decades. A seemingly innocuous event, one which apparently poses no direct threat to human health at all, would have an effect on our world comparable to that of a small nuclear war.

    So could this really happen? And why is 2012 a year to worry about? Well, we know that solar superstorm did happen, back in 1859. And we know that 20 years ago a much smaller storm knocked out the power grid across much of eastern Canada, leaving nine million people without electricity. We also know that the Sun's activity waxes and wanes in 11-year cycles. Currently, the Sun is very quiet. But a solar maximum - a peak of activity - is predicted for 2012, and this is when a superstorm could strike, probably around either the spring or autumn equinox, when the orientation of the Earth's magnetic field to the Sun makes us very vulnerable.

    The main point is that every solar maximum puts us more in danger as our growing population becomes ever more dependent on electricity. Ironically, the least-affected parts of the world would probably be the poorest areas. Those Third World nations that usually suffer most from natural disasters, on account of their poor infrastructure, would adjust most quickly to life without electricity, while richer nations would be paralysed. So can anything be done to prevent an epic disaster?

    A more robust electricity grid would be a start. And we need new satellites to give warning of what is happening on the Sun. Of course, it may not happen in 2012 - it may not happen in 2023, the year of the next solar maximum. But sooner or later, a re-run of the Carrington event is inevitable.

    To which one poster responded:
    I do subscribe to the view that sooner or later (whether in 2012 or later) the odds favour another giant solar storm that will certainly throw the earth's electrical grids into chaos. The largest event of recent years, in March 1989, had that effect on the Quebec (eastern Canada) grid, and I remember the bright auroral display at that time, living fairly close by in Ontario. However, our power didn't go out for more than a few minutes. In Quebec it was more like one or two days.

    You would think that the world would have 24-48 hours warning of such an event as the 1859 flares, and it might be possible to stage a planned outage of most electricity before the magnetic storm hit the earth, then bring back the power in a controlled manner after the storm faded out. This would require more international co-operation than we presently might expect, but it could be done region by region, the world's electrical grids are basically continental in scale, or regions within continents. If North America managed its grid successfully and Asia did not, the aftermath would be different in each case, although there would be some effects either way.

    My question is this: In the event of a 'solar storm', would it be possible to shut down nuclear power plants safely before the storm shuts them down for us?


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Measure Twice


    Furet wrote: »
    My question is this: In the event of a 'solar storm', would it be possible to shut down nuclear power plants safely before the storm shuts them down for us?

    Yes, Furet, the plants would shut down safely, as they would in any load rejection scenario. The primary cooling circuit would become less dense, the neutrons no longer travel at "thermal" velocity, and the reaction shuts itself down.

    Some earlier posts referred to smaller nuclear reactors as being ideal for Ireland, and they are right. But there is no need, imho, to go to the extremely small units of 10 MW or so. They are more suited to extremely electrically isolated environments.

    Ireland could use the Westinghouse IRIS reactor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Reactor_Innovative_and_Secure that is 335 MW (a similar size to many units currently employed in Ireland). This is due to be licensed in 2012 and be ready for deployment in 2015. A number of countries (including Estonia [http://en.rian.ru/world/20090218/120198063.html], Mexico, Brazil) are already planning on installing these IRIS machines, and we could do worse than to prepare ourselves to go down this route if we considered it to be appropriate.

    We could eventually have a fleet of these (suggested as being an advantage by dowlingm) and they are much cheaper and safer than the current crop of Candu and EPR reactors, having learnt from the experiences over the past 50 years.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Furet wrote: »
    My question is this: In the event of a 'solar storm', would it be possible to shut down nuclear power plants safely before the storm shuts them down for us?

    Ah yes , I referred to an "overdue Carrington Event in this thread early on this year in the Weather forum , you may follow the link to see what I mean.

    Ireland is overdue three cataclysmic events in the same sense that San Francisco is overdue another earthquake. They could roll along next year or not in our lifetimes. They have profound implications for infrastructure all the same.

    These are

    1. Freak Waves ( essentially a freak localised Tsunami) read that link above.
    2. An earthquake offshore/east atlantic causing an actual Tsunami, the last was during the Great Lisbon Earthquake 250 years ago.
    3. A massive solar storm like the Carrington Event.

    Either of these three events would have grave implications for infrastructure , particularly the latter two.

    We should be able to shut a fission reactor down to a safe level nevertheless. We have advanced solar warning systems in place at the Lagrange Points nowadays such as the SOHO sat and others.

    Our electricity grids will be toast as will many communications systems in the case of a Carrington Event. If you want some survivability then installing large scale fibre is absolutely essential as is a buffer stock of grid/generation components and a blackout protocol.

    I have been warning about this for over four years on Boards but I may as well be talking to the ****ing wall as trying to get anybody to realise the implications of a large solar storm .....never mind that we are overdue one in my opinion :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    great article

    http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/

    thorium solves alot of issues of uranium plants


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    im not a fan of nuclear for the following reasons
    1. I think there is cleaner, safer, less expensive methods which could generate as much power that the country requires. i.e wind, solar, as well as your bio-diesels
    2. the threat of terrorist attacks
    3. After Chernobyl id be very wary of it.

    1.
    Check the system demand on eirgrid's site for the 21st December. http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/systemdemand/

    Check the wind generation the same day. http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

    We have about 1.2GW or 1200MW of wind generation capacity installed.
    Before the recession, the peak electricity demand happened during the week leading up to Christmas before business shut down for the break.

    We needed 5GW of electricity. The 1.2GW of wind power could only generate 80MW or 0.08GW of the electricity needed, or 1.6% of the country's electricity as there was no wind.

    Every year during the winter we have cold calm weather. The cold increases the demand for electricity as there are electric heaters and storage heaters being used. the calm reduces the electricity being generated by wind power as there is no wind.

    2.
    What conventional power stations suffered terrorist attacks, in Ireland or Britain, during the troubles?
    France had terrorists blowing up underground trains stations in the 90's. They generate most of their electricity from nukes. but no attacks.

    3.
    Chernobyl was the result of a poor design, operated by a poor system of governance, and a ludicrous test, with no containment unit to completely feic the thing up. the Un reckons that less than a hundred people died directly from the Chernobyl accident. More coal miners in China die mining coal for electricity power each year than died in Chernobyl. More radioactivity is released from Coal power plants each year than Chernobyl.

    4. radioactivity' not all bad. Your smoke alarm uses a bit of radioactive americium in it. It won't kill you but smoke and fume sure as hell would if you were unfortunate enough to be involved in a fire.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 fraz1971


    It would actually be cheaper to invest in wind and wave technology. I find it hard to believe that we find it preferable to have nuclear waste on our doorstep than the eyesore that is a wind farm.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18 fraz1971


    Chernobyl was the result of a poor design, operated by a poor system of governance

    Well that's that argument beaten down if we try to do this in Ireland.

    If we couldn't not build the Bertie Bowl without going over budget then I would be at great pains to trust the government on this. If Ireland does build a nuclear power station then I hope they build it in Kerry, about as far away from me as possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Measure Twice


    fraz1971 wrote: »
    It would actually be cheaper to invest in wind and wave technology.
    How much cheaper than nuclear is wind and wave technology?
    fraz1971 wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that we find it preferable to have nuclear waste on our doorstep than the eyesore that is a wind farm.
    It is not a question of preference for nuclear waste over an eyesore. It is a question of security of a reliable, low-carbon supply of electricity at competitive prices. Nuclear power can supply this, and that is why countries such as France, Sweden, Switzerland and Belgium all use nuclear to supply over 50% of their electricty.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Measure Twice


    fraz1971 wrote: »
    If Ireland does build a nuclear power station then I hope they build it in Kerry, about as far away from me as possible.
    Fraz,

    It is not the government that will build our nuclear stations, it will be a reactor manufacturing company such as Westinghouse who will build them for a utility with experience in these matters. Good utilitities who already operate in Ireland include ESB, Endesa, Viridian and Airtrticty.

    Note that there are over 440 nuclear electricity plants in operation worldwide without a single death in any OECD country. Our nearest one is in Wales, less than 80 miles from the GPO. Not a bother!


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