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eircom issues statement on illegal file sharing

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24

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    #32
    M.J.M.C
    Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭M.J.M.C


    Making waves already:

    http://torrentfreak.com/isp-3-strikes-anti-piracy-strategy-rewarded-by-big-four-music-service-101208/


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    #33
    pmsurveys
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭pmsurveys


    Inquitus wrote: »
    lol Sub cancelled, UPC just moved into my area, I am about 500 bills a year richer, have a better service, and am now not subject to your draconian abuses.

    Goodbye for good,

    Inq

    Hey can you turn off your security on your wireless so everyone around you can access free wifi. It's not really stealing is it ?


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    #34
    eircom: Ant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭eircom: Ant


    novarock wrote: »
    Can you clarify who you will be relaying the IP information to? Is it just between you and the customer, or is there a third party involved? Also clarify your stance on data protection if this information is to divulged to any law enforcement outside of the Republic of Ireland.

    Also, are you now no longer running DHCP, as was my impression. Surely if it is based on IP information, every customer will now have to have a statically assigned IP, and reconfigure the Netopia router. Otherwise, how can you 100% garauntee that the IP in use was in fact on my router at the time?

    What is stopping anybody from manually assigning themselves another IP from the same subnet without your knowledge?

    Also, I myself am not an Eircom customer, but could never be after this, its all very underhanded.

    Hi novarock,

    Thanks for your query

    If you are not an eircom customer I would advise you to contact your Internet provider for assistance with your router configuration. They will also be able to provide you with information on whether the ISP provides static or dynamic IP addresses when connected across the Internet

    Eircom provide all residential customers with a dynamic IP address which allows them to connect to the Internet across the web. Customer's are welcome to configure their own routers themselves if they want.

    The stated position of eircom is that IP data information is not shared with any external source, although all data transfer is subject to data protection under the law of the land. All data transfer information in the Republic of Ireland is therefore subject to the law.

    If you need further information on Irish Data Law please see - http://www.dataprotection.ie

    I hope this helps you.
    If you need further information on your Internet connection please contact your Internet provider ISP.

    Kind regards
    Ant


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    #35
    Jagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Jagle


    i love and really i mean it, love that if someone downloads illegal content on your eircom network they get shut off for a year, yet eircom ship routers with the worst security ever, that lil java app that hacks any straight out of the box eircom routers is the handiest tool ever, im sorry but i can easily reach 8 eircom networks from my couch, all i have to do is hop on their networks download some awful U2 music and watch everone get disconnected for a year, try harder eircom


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    #36
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Yup. Poor router security and simple IP cloaking mean that many innocent people will be fingered and will have poor legal recourse. Already plenty of instances in the UK.

    Plus the notion that IRMA help the small artist is bull. Two artists I know with plenty in their discographies have never received a penny from them despite plenty of public play.


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    #37
    Jagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Jagle


    yep IRMRA are well known for being horrible to deal with thugs in the irish music scene i personally know a few people who have had to deal with them and its nothing but an uphill struggle


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    #38
    novarock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭novarock


    eircom: Ant wrote: »
    Hi novarock,

    Thanks for your query

    If you are not an eircom customer I would advise you to contact your Internet provider for assistance with your router configuration. They will also be able to provide you with information on whether the ISP provides static or dynamic IP addresses when connected across the Internet

    Eircom provide all residential customers with a dynamic IP address which allows them to connect to the Internet across the web. Customer's are welcome to configure their own routers themselves if they want.

    The stated position of eircom is that IP data information is not shared with any external source, although all data transfer is subject to data protection under the law of the land. All data transfer information in the Republic of Ireland is therefore subject to the law.

    If you need further information on Irish Data Law please see - http://www.dataprotection.ie

    I hope this helps you.
    If you need further information on your Internet connection please contact your Internet provider ISP.

    Kind regards
    Ant

    Hi Ant,

    I am perfectly aware of how to configure a router, and I was asking general questions related to the statement released by eircom earlier. The question I asked was if you are using dynamic addressing, how are you using this to pin point users that are downloading music?

    You say that users can configure IP's themselves, what is stopping a user from manually assigning themselves another IP in their subnet, downloading 50 gigs of data, and then requesting a different IP via DHCP? Surely this negates how you are able to 'pin point' users. Spoofing an IP is incredibly simple, so unless you are using a different technique to pin point users, I dont believe you can do it accurately. Also please clarify if authorities are involved in this. You use the term 'illegal' in your press release, implying that law will be involved, which IRMA are not.

    I myself use Itunes for all music downloading, so I am not asking these questions out of worry of being prosecuted.


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    #39
    novarock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭novarock


    further to that, what of the thousands of customers you have with the first generation netopia router, using WAP encryption which might as well not be there?

    There are even iphone apps for logging in to secure Eircom connections. I can seriously see a lot of innocent customers receiving threatening letters.


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    #40
    eircom: Mark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭eircom: Mark


    Jagle wrote: »
    i love and really i mean it, love that if someone downloads illegal content on your eircom network they get shut off for a year, yet eircom ship routers with the worst security ever, that lil java app that hacks any straight out of the box eircom routers is the handiest tool ever, im sorry but i can easily reach 8 eircom networks from my couch, all i have to do is hop on their networks download some awful U2 music and watch everone get disconnected for a year, try harder eircom

    Hi Jagle,

    I appreciate your point, eircom have detailed tips and instructions on how customers can check and improve their security. Have a look at http://bit.ly/ewdB83

    I hope it helps. We have been pushing this on twitter and our forum to combat this possibility.


    Thanks, Mark


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    #41
    eircom: Mark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭eircom: Mark


    tricky D wrote: »
    Yup. Poor router security and simple IP cloaking mean that many innocent people will be fingered and will have poor legal recourse. Already plenty of instances in the UK.

    Plus the notion that IRMA help the small artist is bull. Two artists I know with plenty in their discographies have never received a penny from them despite plenty of public play.

    Hi trickyD

    As per the above post, see how customers can check and improve their security. Have a look at http://bit.ly/ewdB83

    It should help.

    Thanks, Mark


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    #42
    Pyongyang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭Pyongyang


    Thanks for skirting my point, but appreciate the response anyway.

    I do have a question about the MusicHub service. Why in the FAQ does it state:
    In what file format and quality level are the music downloads?
    All files are in MP3 format, encoded using the LAME encoding preset at a high variable bitrate (vbr).

    It's a bit vague in terms of bit rate, no mention of high/low settings or what other settings were used.

    For the money Eircom are charging €6.99 per month to stream poor quality audio and charging almost double what they charge Eircom subscribers for the 'Fanatic' package at €22.99 it just makes absolutely zero business sense. I'd want lossless or more bitrate/setting specifics before parting with my money. How can you justify such an enormous mark-up for the service to non-subscribers? That's off-putting in itself and the customer hasn't even opened their wallet yet!

    Is the business venture limited to a deal with a specific number of labels? If so how does it compare against other market players such as iTunes, Zune etc?

    And finally heading back to the original point about Eircom's stance on filesharing and the '3 strikes' policy; What will Eircom's stance be once users wise up and encrypt all data transfer activity? How is it envisaged that the policy will be enforced then?

    Or is Eircom simply preying on the vulnerable and less tech-savvy in the hopes they are an easy catch?

    Thanks.


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    #43
    Jagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Jagle


    thanks mark but im no longer with eircom, were for years but worse and worse service, had 2 weeks of disconnection, numerous phone calls and tech call outs, gave up switched to smart and never been happier,
    my torrents are well faster too which led me to believe ye throttle your traffic at times.

    and no please dont fix your bad routers, very handy if i need to use the internet when im out real quick, and maybe your routers should ship without a major security flaw, instead of asking people to fix them once they have recieved em,
    alot of eircom customers im sure arnt the most tech savvy


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    #44
    Pyongyang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭Pyongyang


    eircom: Mark wrote: »
    Hi Jagle,

    I appreciate your point, eircom have detailed tips and instructions on how customers can check and improve their security. Have a look at http://bit.ly/ewdB83

    I hope it helps. We have been pushing this on twitter and our forum to combat this possibility.


    Thanks, Mark

    <SNIP>


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    #45
    eircom: Ant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭eircom: Ant


    novarock wrote: »
    Hi Ant,

    I am perfectly aware of how to configure a router, and I was asking general questions related to the statement released by eircom earlier. The question I asked was if you are using dynamic addressing, how are you using this to pin point users that are downloading music?

    You say that users can configure IP's themselves, what is stopping a user from manually assigning themselves another IP in their subnet, downloading 50 gigs of data, and then requesting a different IP via DHCP? Surely this negates how you are able to 'pin point' users. Spoofing an IP is incredibly simple, so unless you are using a different technique to pin point users, I dont believe you can do it accurately. Also please clarify if authorities are involved in this. You use the term 'illegal' in your press release, implying that law will be involved, which IRMA are not.

    I myself use Itunes for all music downloading, so I am not asking these questions out of worry of being prosecuted.


    Hi novarock,

    Thanks again. In relation to your query on illegal music downloads I do appreciate what you are saying.

    Eircom have outlined their position - http://bit.ly/gIADCn and although open to ideas or other solutions, they stand by this. I think many consumers and smaller artists have encouraged the initiative on the musichub - http://eircommusichub.ie/

    In particular for yourself, as a non-eircom customer, you will find downloads are much cheaper than on itunes.

    Again, contact your own ISP if you need further information on Internet access through static or dynamic IP addressing.

    Thanks again for contacting the forum

    cheers Ant


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    #46
    KylieWyley
    Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭KylieWyley


    Is Eircom trying to drive away business?

    This approach is very draconian and amounts to an infringement of the rights that internet users should enjoy in a free and democratic society. Any system whereby Eircom (or any 3rd parties it acts in cohort with) act as both the judge and jury, without any appropriate means of appeal to an impartial arbiter, is extremely unfair and should be unlawful.

    You should take at look at France, where the Constitutional Courts struck down a similar measure because internet access was seen as a human right and one that could only be withheld by a Court of Law. http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10262406-93.html

    You guys should be absolutely ashamed of yourselves and your spineless approach to this issue. UPC have proved that the law doesn't require such an approach to this issue and that, therefore, it should not be too late to terminate this memorandum of understanding you have with the music industry.


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    #47
    flyingsnail
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭flyingsnail


    As part of this agreement, IRMA will provide eircom with notifications which will contain among other details, the IP address identified as engaging in illegal music file sharing in breach of copyright along with evidence of the infringement. The IP addresses have been captured in accordance with relevant laws and processed on IRMA's behalf via a third party. eircom on receipt of the notification will:

    What does this evidence consist of and is it included in the letters sent to the customer?

    Is there an appeals process or is it just we say you are guilty and that's that?


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    #48
    Pyongyang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭Pyongyang


    No offence lads but the more you read the small print, the less value the service becomes.

    Some of the albums you offered cannot be purchased as individual songs OR streamed. Taking a purely neutral, observing stance I would like to assume that this means it's geared toward getting users on the streaming only package to upgrade to the more expensive packages.

    The real kick in the shins though is the lack of credits rollover. How can you justify charging so much per month for so little download credits and then force the users hand to ensure they use them up every month or face losing unused credits?

    People who don't use their credits will either lose them or end up downloading items they don't want. No real value in that at all I think.

    A better business concept that I used to subscribe to when I lived abroad is the Zune Pass. A set price per month for unlimited downloads and streaming. Great value, pure straightforward business sense.

    Job done.

    Why make it so tight-fisted and complex? Why charge so much and offer so little?

    It beggars belief that someone, somewhere, drinking fancy water at a big board room table at Eircom thought that this business model has any potential at all in a country currently plagued with financial problems, a country that is falling off the broadband infrastructure charts at a faster speed than the broadband speeds that are being delivered to customers homes... and to top it all off, a business plan geared entirely towards the one thing that customers already hold a negative viewpoint of Eircom for (regardless of the fact that you'll have an impossible time pinning down customers in a court of law with the weak wifi argument or especially those who encrypt their data transmissions).

    If Musichub succeeds and becomes profitable and sustainable I'll eat my own head.


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    #49
    M.J.M.C
    Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭M.J.M.C


    Seriously,

    Ant, Mark, Tony and crew - fair play for taking points and listening to people have their say be it good or bad about this, and answering their questions.
    Hope they gave you a few quid extra to be reps here.
    I seriously mean this when i say the best of luck with musichub.ie
    (on a side note the search function isnt working in chrome for me, might be that im running adblock within chrome)
    Anyway, fair play and dont take bad things people say here personally.

    My final point, Eircom's stance on this, would be like the Guards issuing someone a letter saying :

    You car with reg 10D1234 (IP Address) was seen speeding... then two more letters from the Guards and you loose your drivers licence for a year.

    That wouldn't happen because you could appeal.
    "I was not driving the car"
    "my car was stolen"

    You get my point.

    Anyway - best of luck with MusicHub


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    #50
    Sherifu
    Registered Users Posts: 17,727 ✭✭✭✭Sherifu


    picture_2411.png


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    #51
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    M.J.M.C wrote: »
    Ant, Mark, Tony and crew - fair play for taking points and listening to people have their say be it good or bad about this, and answering their questions.
    Hope they gave you a few quid extra to be reps here.
    Anyway, fair play and dont take bad things people say here personally.

    +1

    It's not personal


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    #52
    yoyo
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,006 Mod ✭✭✭✭yoyo


    flyingsnail wrote: »
    What does this evidence consist of and is it included in the letters sent to the customer?

    Is there an appeals process or is it just we say you are guilty and that's that?

    I have a relative who got a letter and the evidence was the song name/artist name, date, time and IP address, it also stated limewire was used iirc (Probably anything on the Gnutella network is "limewire" to them, not sure a single program like that can be ided)

    Nick

    My Beer Glass collection site 🍺

    My Irish Callcards site



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    #53
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    To all posters - eircom are engaging here openly on Boards - please pay them due accord and respect. Healthy debate is good and welcomed. Abuse and smart alec comments are not so welcome.

    dudara


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    #54
    madmanwithabox
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭madmanwithabox


    What's Eircoms position on this?
    You mentioned illegal downloads in an earlier post, which of the following 2 scenarios are defined as illegal under Eircoms policy/legal requirements (the notice issued only mentions filesharing, which is not the same as downloading)?

    1) downloading a music track (via torrenting etc), but disabling the ability for that track to be uploaded to anyone else (downloading)

    2) downloading a track and leaving uploading enabled (filesharing)

    It's important to note that "downloading" covers a multitude of activities:
    Opening a video in youtube that contains music from an artist (streaming is still downloading, that information exists on your computer once the streaming has finished, and can be retrieved and the audio track ripped).
    Opening a website that has a music sample playing on launch - again, it's downloaded to your computer.

    Another question, you have several wholesale companies that use your services, will you be providing IP addresses from those companies to any 3rd party in relation to this - is UPC the only way forward?


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    #55
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Was asked by some web PR person to check out your "Musichub" for my site.
    Immediate reaction? What a load of toss.

    "It's free to stream"? Nope, you have to be an eircom customer for free streaming, something that has been conveniently left out of posts from eircom. Yes, you see the message that it's 6.99 a month to stream if you aren't in the eircom family, but only after you visit the site.


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    #56
    Jagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Jagle


    im honestly very surprised that they came up with this idea, didnt anyone in eircom or IMRA know that they will not be beaten by itune, and any other big time media streaming site, already in opperation.
    if eircom customers dont use these already why would they bother going to the musichub now, just start using itunes


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    #57
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Jagle wrote: »
    im honestly very surprised that they came up with this idea, didnt anyone in eircom or IMRA know that they will not be beaten by itune, and any other big time media streaming site, already in opperation.
    if eircom customers dont use these already why would they bother going to the musichub now, just start using itunes

    Pretty much, no fan of Apple or the Itunes service myself.
    this signing up per month thing is bull imo.
    Just go listen to free streaming radio like shoutcast, or you can stream artists music on youtube using their official accounts.

    edit- actually, was the deal with IRMA anything to do with Musichub? When the deal was struck, did the big music companies (Universal Music, Sony, EMI, Warner Music) offer you their tracks for your new shop?

    edit 2- any comment regarding this?
    To this end, Eircom is guaranteeing that it will never hand subscribers’ personal details to the music industry and will never monitor their online activities. They will, however, take the word of the music industry and their monitors on face value and presume it is accurate as a matter of course.


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    #58
    Jagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 870 ✭✭✭Jagle


    Nerin wrote: »
    Pretty much, no fan of Apple or the Itunes service myself.
    this signing up per month thing is bull imo.
    Just go listen to free streaming radio like shoutcast, or you can stream artists music on youtube using their official accounts.

    same im not a big time itunes user, but if my isptold me i had to stop downloading illegally and that i could use their service id say thanks but no thanks, unfortunetly most of our brothers and sisters arnt tech savvy and wil probably think this is the bees knees


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    #59
    blubloblu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,226 ✭✭✭blubloblu


    eircom: Tony wrote: »
    Hi folks

    I've been asked to share this press release, issued today, with you:



    Any questions, please let any of us know and we'll try to help.

    Thanks

    Tony
    Can I ask you to kick someone I don't like off the Internet on the basis of an accusation? If it's good enough for IRMA, why isn't it good enough for me? Do I just need to have enough money to sue eircom?

    Will you be policing the Internet on the behalf of book publishers, the Pentagon (re:wikileaks) and god knows how many other begrudged organisations?

    Why didn't you stand up for your customers as UPC did, who were then proven right, unlike eircom's cowardly out-of-court settlement?


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    #60
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Can we change the thread title to illegal music file sharing?

    Eircom have no such policy regarding movies, computer software, books or even child porn.

    The cynic in me thinks that the 3 strikes policy was agreed upon because musichub wouldn't get clearance from IRMA without it.

    Eircom have really missed a real opportunity to be a leader in digital music distribution in Ireland (let's overlook the 3 strikes just for a minute). They could have been the first port of call for people to buy music from up and coming Irish artists.

    However, if you don't hand over some cash, you can't even listen to 10 seconds of a song. You have youtube/myspace/last.fm/grooveshark all offering free streaming. Why would anyone pay eircom for their service.

    They also don't have the catalogue of other sites, but I'll put that down to the service just starting up.

    If the streaming was free to all (customers and non-customers) and you still could undercut itunes for the price of a song, you might be in with a chance.

    Anyways to sum up, eircom won't be getting any business from me due to the 3 strike policy (even though I always pay for music) and because of the locked box nature of musichub.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #61
    bastados
    Registered Users Posts: 606 ✭✭✭bastados


    I've noticed site blocking instances by Google due to virus/trogan alerts..and that really got up my nose..imagine a service where your channeled to the sites they deem fit?...crazy.I got badly stung by Eircom's tactics recently and now will never use them.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056013740&page=5


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