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Double standard of EU 'Prevention of revision of the Past'

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    #302
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    The confidence you have in those sweeping statistics is surprising considering as has already been mentioned the 1.5 million missing germans. You can not take ww2 statistics at face value, you have to look in to what they are based on. So, no, the survival rates have not already been posted here, One estimation of the survival rates, by one author, which the editors at wikipedia find agreeable have been posted there - that is not The Survival Rates.

    If you have a problem with the Author's (Ferguson)survival figures quoted, then surely you should put forward more of an argument against him. In fact the only counter argument you make is that his figures appear on wikipedia. In simple terms try to back up your point. If you have alternative figures, please post them.
    Morlar wrote: »
    Your view that any soviet mistreatment of german pow's is a response to german treatment of russian pow's does not sound like the claim of someone looking at this from a neutral viewpoint. Also - worth mentioning that these last few posts belong in a different thread in case you had not noticed.

    Thats not my view. In future if you wish to attribute a view to me I would prefer you to quote what I have said.

    I agree that this would be more appropriate on the thread dealing with Soviet/ German POW's. Perhaps you might notice that I was responding to a question- Perhaps I should have got permission from you to respond to it!


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    #303
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    ( Reply moved to correct thread )
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70592676&postcount=33


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    #304
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    it is kinda relevant as you 'Appear' to be attempting to justify the Genocide of those POW's as retaliatory, whilst condeming the mindset of the Nazis which was rather simmilar


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    #305
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    it is kinda relevant as you 'Appear' to be attempting to justify the Genocide of those POW's as retaliatory, whilst condeming the mindset of the Nazis which was rather simmilar

    Strange definition of genocide.


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    #306
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    gen·o·cide
       /ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/ Show Spelled[jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
    –noun
    the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.


    the Obvious absurdity of the argument is in the extremes


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    #307
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    the Obvious absurdity of the argument is in the extremes

    So scholars routinely describe the killing of POWs as genocide?


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    #308
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    no I think they use the term War Crime, but its all semantics.


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    #309
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    AnnyHallsal wrote: »
    So scholars routinely describe the killing of POWs as genocide?
    Two quotes come to mind:

    "Kill one man and become a murderer. Kill one million and become a conqueror"

    "History is written by the winners"

    IMO, because of the two quotes, the extermination of thousands of people by the Soviets becomes a statistic, but what the Nazis did, genocide.


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    #310
    Herrmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭Herrmann


    Consider the following: Some time ago a German citizen of Thüringen was accused and put on trial for (correctly) having reported that the plates in Auschwitz, displaying the numbers of victims, had been changed. Because those numbers probably had been reduced, the German was guilty of "denial" by reporting it. The famous author David Irving was convicted by a German court to three years of imprisonment for having (correctly) reported that German historians came to the conclusion that concentration camps on German territory never were equipped wih one single gas chamber. Another draconic jail term was posed on an "animal cruelty activist" for having called the standards in the poultry farming industry "chicken holocaust". That youngster simply saw the holocaust as the highest escalation of barbaric violent behaviour. In no way that person intended to deny, debate or relativate the history of the holocaust. In Germany it is a crime to criticize, discuss, compare or deny the holocaust, the German war guilt or the Nuremberg trials. The discussion about victim numbers acording to the highest German court insults the dignity of the deceased, whose dignity is of a higher value as the right of free expression of opinion. That bigotry is too infamous to be described by words. Reporting facts has nothing to do with "opinion", the punishment of which occured in the very darkest periods of mankind. Even if it would have been opinion, those justifications puts nothing but shame on German jurists. Factual they ignite a second inquisition. Take "Katyn" as an example. Although the Germans conducted an international investigation in the year 1943, it lasted until 1995 until the Russians officially confirmed to have been the "authors" of the massacre. Ten German soldiers however in a Russian version of the Nuremberg trials had been convicted and hanged for Katyn. After the Russian confirmation, what happened of the actor's "dignities"? The Russians with no doubt deserve a lot of honour and appreciation for their courageous confession. The Polish victims in Katyn weren't even touched at their dignity, having been victims whoever massacred them. Only the German officers who had been falsely executed and their families were relieved from shame. Originally it would have been a German court's task to orderly investigate guilt or non-guilt. I have come to the opinion that the legal system in Gemany has ceased to exist. I can only warn everyone to promote those tendencies in the rest of Europe, especially when the promoters hide behind "anti defamation", "tolerance" or "liberty" camouflage. Don't ask yourself anymore why skinheads riot in the streets of German towns. What would you do if your opinion would be a crime, you were jailed for discussing simple facts openly? I am far away from that scene, but that explanation appears to be rather logic to me. That doesn't say it makes me more happy.


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    #311
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Herrmann wrote: »
    Consider the following: Some time ago a German citizen of Thüringen was accused and put on trial for (correctly) having reported that the plates in Auschwitz, displaying the numbers of victims, had been changed. Because those numbers probably had been reduced, the German was guilty of "denial" by reporting it.

    Could you provide more information about this case- It seems very unfair if this is the full details of the citizens 'crime'.
    Herrmann wrote: »
    The famous author David Irving was convicted by a German court to three years of imprisonment for having (correctly) reported that German historians came to the conclusion that concentration camps on German territory never were equipped wih one single gas chamber.
    Was there not a Gas Chamber at Dachau (I am open to correction on this)- I understood that there was one there although it had not been fully commissioned/ operational. Again could you possibly reference the specific case that you refer to. Your comments carry very little meaning if you don't bother to provide source information to back them up.
    Herrmann wrote: »
    Take "Katyn" as an example. Although the Germans conducted an international investigation in the year 1943, it lasted until 1995 until the Russians officially confirmed to have been the "authors" of the massacre. Ten German soldiers however in a Russian version of the Nuremberg trials had been convicted and hanged for Katyn. After the Russian confirmation, what happened of the actor's "dignities"? The Russians with no doubt deserve a lot of honour and appreciation for their courageous confession. The Polish victims in Katyn weren't even touched at their dignity, having been victims whoever massacred them. Only the German officers who had been falsely executed and their families were relieved from shame. Originally it would have been a German court's task to orderly investigate guilt or non-guilt. I have come to the opinion that the legal system in Gemany has ceased to exist. I can only warn everyone to promote those tendencies in the rest of Europe, especially when the promoters hide behind "anti defamation", "tolerance" or "liberty" camouflage. Don't ask yourself anymore why skinheads riot in the streets of German towns. What would you do if your opinion would be a crime, you were jailed for discussing simple facts openly? I am far away from that scene, but that explanation appears to be rather logic to me. That doesn't say it makes me more happy.


    Restriction of free speech is not a good thing and perhaps not necessary nowadays but you seem to forget that the anti- holocaust denial laws actually had a purpose initially when they were conceived many decades ago. Your reasoning/ excuse for neo nazi skinheads rioting is not credible in my view. These people have far more in their agendas than being angry at the restriction of free speech.

    Although you will find Nazi sympathisers here on boards who will like many of your comments (without wanting any more information on them) you really should try and provide sources for some of these opinions. This would allow debate of the points you make in the free way which you seem to crave.


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    #312
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Although you will find Nazi sympathisers here on boards who will like many of your comments

    Considering I thanked this persons post because I agree with many of the points raised in it - can you clarify who exactly you are referring to here ?

    The recent tendency on here by several new posters to refer to anti-semites and nazis left and right is not a positive development in my view. It would seem to be an attempt to try and use namecalling and mudslinging in order to intimidate people away from expressing their viewpoint on complicated issues. It adds nothing to the level of debate.


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    #313
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Morlar wrote: »
    Considering I thanked this persons post because I agree with many of the points raised in it - can you clarify who exactly you are referring to here ?

    The recent tendency on here by several new posters to refer to anti-semites and nazis left and right is not a positive development in my view. It would seem to be an attempt to try and use namecalling and mudslinging in order to intimidate people away from expressing their viewpoint on complicated issues. It adds nothing to the level of debate.

    No need to be so touchy Morlar, I could'nt care less who you thank (you should not assume I was talking about you- I'm reminded of a certain song by carly simon!). I am also tempted to tell you that 'thats not how it works' in response to your first question.

    I simply asked the poster to expand on his rather non-descriptive and unsubstantiated post. We can all put forward details of 'cases' in our own words but we should in my view at least be clear about what case we are refering to. You may be willing to take Hermanns post as gospel but I would think it is naive to do so with out being able to research them. I agree that name calling, etc is not good, which is why I did not directly do this. Rather, I was pointing out the obvious.
    Regarding your point about new posters refering to "anti semites and nazis"; do you think that if someone makes an anti-semitic comment that they should not be highlighted in the same way as if someone makes a racist comment?


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    #314
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    Herrmann wrote: »
    Don't ask yourself anymore why skinheads riot in the streets of German towns. What would you do if your opinion would be a crime, you were jailed for discussing simple facts openly?

    This suggests there is a causal link between holocaust denial laws and neo-nazism, when the former is a response to the latter.

    Many countries have incitement to hatred laws, which include laws against racism, that many such rioting skinheads would also be prosecuted for.


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    #315
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    In my experience of Germany, I'd agree with many of the things Herrmann has outlined. It's difficult for anyone who has not lived in Germany to understand the insane level of political correctness that exists with regard to this issue in German society.

    Many young Germans are frustrated and confused at why they are still carrying baggage belonging to their Grandparents. Many others are equally confused at why they are paying compensation to the state of Israel, when Israel have Apartheid style laws, and are engaged in extremely brutal violence against Palestinians. They (The Germans I've spoken to) also, in many cases, feel a sense of irony, that in paying this compensation, they are indirectly responsible for helping to finance the policies of the current Israeli regime.


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    #316
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    marcsignal wrote: »
    In my experience of Germany, I'd agree with many of the things Herrmann has outlined. It's difficult for anyone who has not lived in Germany to understand the insane level of political correctness that exists with regard to this issue in German society.

    Many young Germans are frustrated and confused at why they are still carrying baggage belonging to their Grandparents. Many others are equally confused at why they are paying compensation to the state of Israel, when Israel have Apartheid style laws, and are engaged in extremely brutal violence against Palestinians. They (The Germans I've spoken to) also, in many cases, feel a sense of irony, that in paying this compensation, they are indirectly responsible for helping to finance the policies of the current Israeli regime.

    Yet there are many other Germans, among them Germans I've spoken to, who are angered by the resurgence of Neo-Nazism and the support, tacit or otherwise, given to it by people like Irving.

    It's up to the Germans you speak of to find a political voice for their frustrations and have that voice heard on a national level. 'The Germans' will collectively determine the way they believe the Holocaust should be spoken of in their country.


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    #317
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    AnnyHallsal wrote: »
    Yet there are many other Germans, among them Germans I've spoken to, who are angered by the resurgence of Neo-Nazism and the support, tacit or otherwise, given to it by people like Irving.

    Although I'm aware of who Irving is, I've never read any of his work, other than the odd article. Other than that I have no idea what he has ever said in relation to this issue.
    AnnyHallsal wrote: »
    It's up to the Germans you speak of to find a political voice for their frustrations and have that voice heard on a national level. 'The Germans' will collectively determine the way they believe the Holocaust should be spoken of in their country.

    They can't, it's forbidden to have any voice on the issue, other than the status quo. In fact, it's a custodial offence in many cases. I believe that's the point Hermann was making.


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    #318
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    marcsignal wrote: »

    They can't, it's forbidden to have any voice on the issue, other than the status quo. In fact, it's a custodial offence in many cases.

    This is untrue. Holocaust denial and explicit Anti-Semitism (under incitement to hatred) is a crime in Germany. It is not a crime to campaign for freedom to deny the Holocaust. See the pro-freedom of speech arguments of Beate Rudolf, Director of the German Institute for Human Rights, for example.


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    #319
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    AnnyHallsal wrote: »
    This is untrue. Holocaust denial and explicit Anti-Semitism (under incitement to hatred) is a crime in Germany. It is not a crime to campaign for freedom to deny the Holocaust. See the pro-freedom of speech arguments of Beate Rudolf, Director of the German Institute for Human Rights, for example.

    I have found that defining what is considered Holocaust Denial is not an exact science in Germany, but generally, the subject is a no no.

    Have you a direct link to Beate Rudolf's pro freedom of speech arguements ? I can't find anything in relation to it here: http://www.institut-fuer-menschenrechte.de/en/topics.html

    I would be interested in reading it.


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    #320
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    marcsignal wrote: »
    I have found that defining what is considered Holocaust Denial is not an exact science in Germany, but generally, the subject is a no no.

    Have you a direct link to Beate Rudolf's pro freedom of speech arguements ? I can't find anything in relation to it here: http://www.institut-fuer-menschenrechte.de/en/topics.html

    I would be interested in reading it.

    A no-no, perhaps. But contrary to what you have asserted, Germans are free to campaign for the law to be changed, and it will be changed if there is enough organised mass support.

    You will find what Rudolf said on the matter here:

    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2329693,00.html


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    #321
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    AnnyHallsal wrote: »
    A no-no, perhaps. But contrary to what you have asserted, Germans are free to campaign for the law to be changed, and it will be changed if there is enough organised mass support.

    You will find what Rudolf said on the matter here:

    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2329693,00.html

    As it happens, I was reading that article before you posted.
    Rudolf doesn't mention anything in that article to back up what your saying.
    Interestingly however, she does seem to agree (in bold below) with what I said earlier in this thread @post 234 Here.
    Beate Rudolf, an expert on European law at Berlin's Free University, believes the initiative is doomed.

    "I do not think they will be able to rally all member states behind their proposal. Traditionally, there is too big a difference between members' practice on this specific issue," she told AFP.

    Rudolf said Germany was seeking to make article 13 of the European Community treaty more legally binding to fight discrimination.

    "This is a difficult argument because they are saying that to promote one basic human right you need to limit freedom of speech, which is another basic human right."

    She predicted the German proposal would again be opposed by Britain, as well as states who "do not think that the power of the EU extends far beyond the economic arena".


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    #322
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    A no no.....................
    Semantics again.

    Simple question, Could we have this Conversation regarding the Holocaust in a Bar in Germany????
    Marc has alreeady outlined his experiences of one such incident


    NOW

    If we had the same conversation Regards the Gulags and Soviet oppression what would the reaction be???????


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    #323
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    marcsignal wrote: »
    As it happens, I was reading that article before you posted.
    Rudolf doesn't mention anything in that article to back up what your saying.
    Interestingly however, she does seem to agree (in bold below) with what I said earlier in this thread @post 234 Here.

    I cited Rudolf as a prominent German intellectual who expressed opposition to holocaust denial laws, opposition you claimed cannot be voiced in Germany. Friedrich Kubler debates the issue in "How Much Freedom for Racist Speech?"

    Contrary to what you assert, the German people are free to agitate for the law to be repealed. That they do not in significant numbers has more to do with acceptance than state suppression.


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    #324
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    Simple question, Could we have this Conversation regarding the Holocaust in a Bar in Germany????
    Marc has alreeady outlined his experiences of one such incident

    We couldn't have this conversation on boards.de (if there is such a thing??) without problems, let alone a public place.

    @ AnnyHallsal I appreciate the point you're trying to make with regard to denial and campaigning for the freedom to deny. However, even the most extreme right wing political parties don't campaign for the freedom to deny, as far as I can make out.

    Overview on relevant parties and their agendas Here

    Campaigining for freedom to deny is certainly not without it's risks either, even if you're an 81 year old woman.

    Now it's impossible for me to comment on the exact content of Ursula Haverbeck's pamphlet without having seen a copy. However I did see her on the documentary 'The Last Nazis' recently, and she seemed to be making the point that what Ethnic Germans suffered at wars end could be equated to the Holocaust.

    Listen to how carefully the protesters choose their words in the clip below.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YaZBXd-peo
    .

    EDIT:
    AnnyHallsal wrote: »
    I cited Rudolf as a prominent German intellectual who expressed opposition to holocaust denial laws, opposition you claimed cannot be voiced in Germany.

    Can you post a link citing her opposition to HD laws? There is nothing in the article you posted pertaining to this.

    .


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    #325
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    Sure, Marc, I don't want to get into a nit-picking exchange with you either.

    Having recently watched the documentary about Norman Finkelstein, I appreciate much of what you are saying is true, that the Holocaust can be appropriated by special interest groups to further suspect political agendas. At the same time, freedom of speech is used as a smokescreen by other groups with profoundly troubling agendas. In the round, I'm pro-freedom of speech, though do believe there have to be some parameters.

    My main disagreement with you is on the issue of how widespread frustration with Holocaust denial laws is in Germany. Having lived and worked with Germans, my anecdotal experience differs from yours. I'll agree to differ with you there, though.


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    #326
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    marcsignal wrote: »

    EDIT:

    Can you post a link citing her opposition to HD laws? There is nothing in the article you posted pertaining to this.

    .

    If you speak French read this interesting piece, "“Le droit allemand face au discours raciste et aux partis racistes”:

    http://www.rtdh.eu/pdf/2001277.pdf


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    #327
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Agreed. ;)

    It's just my opinion that the extent to which they have gone to in Germany, with regard to this issue, is in danger of becoming completely counter productive.

    Interestingly, you mention Norman Finkelstein. I heard him say recently in a lecture, that when he is examining aspects of Anti-Semitism in Europe, he completely ignores German statistics on the issue, because, in his opinion, the measuers taken by the German state are, to quote him: "Completely Whacky" pertaining to a nanny state gone mad, looking for Anti-Semites behind every tree.

    edit: thanks for last link, don't speak french, but can have it loosely translated.


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    #328
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    marcsignal wrote: »

    It's just my opinion that the extent to which they have gone to in Germany, with regard to this issue, is in danger of becoming completely counter productive.

    This is kind of Rudolf's argument too. There is a similar problem in some schools of feminism, reluctant to countenance any dissenting voices.
    marcsignal wrote: »

    Interestingly, you mention Norman Finkelstein. I heard him say recently in a lecture, that when he is examining aspects of Anti-Semitism in Europe, he completely ignores German statistics on the issue, because, in his opinion, the measuers taken by the German state are, to quote him: "Completely Whacky" pertaining to a nanny state gone mad, looking for Anti-Semites behind every tree.

    Finkelstein's a fascinating figure and that documentary was gripping. Some of what he says goes too far for me - his generalizations about Jewish nature/character and the tone of some of his more polemical works, for example, but there is no doubting his principles and his willingness to suffer for his convictions.


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    #329
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Just on a side note.

    Recently Germany suspended payments to an African Aids charity, to which they were among the biggest contributers, because of allegations of fraud, that the funds own investigators have turned up.
    German Development Minister Dirk Niebel said the serious questions raised in two AP articles on Sunday and Monday require a thorough investigation.

    "I take the allegations of corruption and breach of trust carried by media against the Global Fund very seriously and I expect that the fund will promptly clear them up," said Niebel. "I have halted all further payments to the fund until it is fully cleared up."

    Full Article

    These German contributions were immediately stopped, and by all accounts, nobody had any prolem with that, and rightly so, in my opinion.

    However, also recently, the FBI in America were called in to investigate another fraud, relating to Holocaust compensation payments by Germany to an organisation called 'The Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany' founded in 1951.
    Seventeen people have been charged in the US with the theft of $42m of Holocaust compensation funds provided by the German government.

    Prosecutors alleged the 17 fooled a non-profit-making group that distributes the funds into making 5,500 false payments.

    Six of those charged work for the group - the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany.

    Full Article

    The fraud in the second case amounted to 42 Million Dollars. Now I believe we can all agree, that's a pretty large fraud by any standards.

    Can you imagine the International uproar that would have ensued, had Germany also suspended payments to this fund, pending the findings of the FBI investigation ?

    My money would be on Abraham Foxman having a stroke at such a prospect, and Germany being villified on every western media outlet.


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    #330
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    marcsignal wrote: »
    Just on a side note.

    ...........

    Can you imagine the International uproar that would have ensued, had Germany also suspended payments to this fund, pending the findings of the FBI investigation ?

    My money would be on Abraham Foxman having a stroke at such a prospect, and Germany being villified on every western media outlet.

    You make a very good and correct point which I think most would agree with. I was'nt aware of payments to Israel- do you have links or more info on this as it sounds interesting. Is it an agreed compensation or what type of payment is it. Sounds to me like a guilt payment which is ridiculous 66 years on. Maybe in 66 years the Israeli's will be paying guilt money to palestine!!!


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    #331
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,117 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    You make a very good and correct point which I think most would agree with. I was'nt aware of payments to Israel- do you have links or more info on this as it sounds interesting. Is it an agreed compensation or what type of payment is it. Sounds to me like a guilt payment which is ridiculous 66 years on. Maybe in 66 years the Israeli's will be paying guilt money to palestine!!!

    Finkelstein was lambasted for drawing attention to the issue around these reparations. As far as I'm aware, they never reached their intended destination ie individual survivors and have been traced to offshore bank accounts of dubious origin.


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