Government Capital Spending on Roads: 2016-2022

marno21 · 18-10-2016 2:02pm

spacetweek wrote: »

This was always going to be the case. Last year's investment plan set out the transport ramp-up in spending for the next few years and it was clear that we'd have money for maintenance only until 2018 at least. So all the schemes in the plan were never going to start until after that.

Just cos it's the case doesn't make it right. When the funding allocations come out at the end of the year unless there's funding in place to get the N4, N5, N22 and Dunkettle to a 2018/early 2019 start it will be more time wasted

sondagefaux wrote: »

There is no reason why any capital spending projects on infrastructure in Dublin should take precedence over the M20. Ireland's economy is geographically unbalanced enough as it is. A motorway which would proved the missing link in terms of quality roads for four vitally important centres of economic activity (Cork, Limerick, Shannon and Galway) should be prioritised by any state which is serious about balanced regional development, especially when it would be replacing a road that is evidently no longer fit for purpose.

Exactly this. The current N20 is actively stifling the economy along the N20 corridor along with the two cities. It is of benefit to no one to be sitting in Charleville and Buttevant.

spacetweek wrote: »

I must say that sounds quite exaggerated. If the bus is unreliable can you not just get an earlier bus etc.

Must be a rush hour issue as I've been to cork plenty of times and never once gotten stuck in a traffic jam or found the buses unreliable.

It's not exaggerated. The earliest bus leaves Youghal at 7:20 and there is war at the minute that it doesn't reach UCC/CIT for 9am. That is just ridiculous.

Though in fairness, if there was accomodation in Cork it would alleviate the problem. There's more plans to build houses in Ballincollig, Midleton, Blarney and Carrigaline but no plans for houses in the city. It is implied that these would be all for car commuters. This is very unsustainable planning.

hans aus dtschl · 18-10-2016 2:46pm

NiallBoo wrote: »

their point is that smaller cities do need infrastructure.

That we procrastinate so much about building it that the norm for us is to wait until we have a situation like Dublin where there's a dire need rather than planning and building it in good time.

I.e. that cork, Limerick and Galway should be starting to build metros and/or trams now. To accommodate current and future need.

Also that the greater number of people that have to get around those cities should take priority over the lesser number if people that have to get between them.

We shouldn't take Dublin as a model for development, it should be a cautionary tale to scare kids with.

(Note, I'm criticising the how, not the scale of Dublin's development. I think the idea of saying "Dublin needs to be balanced because it's so much bigger than the other cities" is a little short-sighed. It's not a competition between Irish cities, it's a competition between all cities in the world. If a place is too small it won't get a look-in. Companies want to site themselves where things are happening)

No, I'm afraid I must be a little bit slow on the uptake here, because you've lost me I'm afraid:

The statement was "Cork people should focus on sorting out their own city first before looking to have links to Limerick improved" as justification for not having an M20.

And you're saying that this is rational, because we procrastinate about building urban transport, and that Cork and Galway etc need urban transport, so we should not build an M20.

Apologies once more, but I'm failing to draw a link between refusing to build a motorway between our second and third largest cities, and the lack of inner urban infrastructure in those cities.

Is there a best-practice guide you could point to? Some expert recommendation maybe? Because if there's a bigger justification for inner urban transport than there is for an inter urban motorway, I'm certainly all ears.

Forgive me but as it stands, it sounds like "whataboutery". And the conspiracy theorist in me hears "all spending should be in Dublin".
Particularly when you use phrases like "Cork, Limerick and Galway should be starting to build [light rail] now". Cork, Limerick and Galway do not have autonomy over funding: their funding is controlled in Dublin, believe it or not. You're taking a central government planning issue and using it as a stick to beat local government with, are you not?

Bray Head · 24-10-2016 8:41am

What is the point of the N5 schemes through Longford, Roscommon and east Mayo?

Most of Roscommon is best accessed using the N61.

Once the M18 is in place most of Mayo will be best accessed from the south too.

joujoujou · 24-10-2016 12:16pm

Bray Head wrote: »

[...]

Once the M18 is in place most of Mayo will be best accessed from the south too.

South of Mayo maybe. :P

N5 goes through the middle of Mayo, so IMO would be much more handy.

spacetweek · 24-10-2016 12:53pm

Ballina and castlebar are the two biggest Mayo towns by a long way so the N5 gets you directly to them from the east coast.

marno21 · 24-10-2016 1:48pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Ballina and castlebar are the two biggest Mayo towns by a long way so the N5 gets you directly to them from the east coast.

Joint population 20,700. Lets include Westport too - joint population 26,100. Average AADT along the section to be upgraded - 4500-5000. How often do these 26000 people need to go to Dublin??

Or also see it as joint population 26,098 + Enda + Michael Ring. A brilliant reason why one of the quietest national roads in the country is priority #1.

joujoujou · 24-10-2016 2:02pm

marno21 wrote: »

[...] How often do these 26000 people need to go to Dublin??

[...]

Being one of those people I think I can tell you something. I need to go to Dublin quite often. But having in mind what the route looks like I do whatever I can not to go to.

Cannot give any reference at the moment, but it's proven traffic volume will go up once roads been improved.

marno21 · 24-10-2016 2:27pm

joujoujou wrote: »

Being one of those people I think I can tell you something. I need to go to Dublin quite often. But having in mind what the route looks like I do whatever I can not to go to.

Cannot give any reference at the moment, but it's proven traffic volume will go up once roads been improved.

I understand that some people, including yourself, need to go to Dublin often. However, this amount is low and will always stay low. That's why there is only a plan to upgrade the N5 to single carraigeway.

In the last few years, the N5 has had Longford and Ballaghaderreen bypasses, and the Westport-Turlough DC will start in late 2018/early 2019. Soon we will have a fully completed N5 while several other roads will be severely congested and with much higher volumes. From a balanced point of view it doesn't make much sense to have one of the quietest national primaries done but much busier roads not done.

That's in addition to the stupid way the N5 between Ballaghaderreen and Strokestown is being done. It should be rebuilt to join the N4 further north rather than this new roundabout alignment through the complex at Rathcrogan.

24-10-2016 3:27pm

marno21 wrote: »

Joint population 20,700. Lets include Westport too - joint population 26,100. Average AADT along the section to be upgraded - 4500-5000. How often do these 26000 people need to go to Dublin??

Or also see it as joint population 26,098 + Enda + Michael Ring. A brilliant reason why one of the quietest national roads in the country is priority #1.

As we have explained to you before Marno, There is a large amount of Multinationals in the area, how do you expect them to export competitively on such roads. They have previously threatened to move due to the shocking state of the N5 in Roscommon as some of the product was not surviving the journey.

The wages out of one of those companies in just one year will cover the cost of any improvements. With all your irrational constant moaning about the N5 you would think they are building a motorway to Dublin. It is simply widening of existing roads or by small bypass of Strokestown.

Anyway we need a good link to Croke Park. the GAA could almost fund it at this stage.:)

marno21 · 24-10-2016 3:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As we have explained to you before Marno, There is a large amount of Multinationals in the area, how do you expect them to export competitively on such roads. They have previously threatened to move due to the shocking state of the N5 in Roscommon as some of the product was not surviving the journey.

The wages out of one of those companies in just one year will cover the cost of any improvements. With all your irrational constant moaning about the N5 you would think they are building a motorway to Dublin. It is simply widening of existing roads or by small bypass of Strokestown.

Anyway we need a good link to Croke Park. the GAA could almost fund it at this stage.:)

Ah, I understand the concept of multinationals, but Castlebar, Westport and Ballina aren't the only places in Ireland with multinationals having to use ****e roads. The same is true in the southwest, and other parts of the west.

It's not simply widening the existing roads, the current plan is for a complete offline route from Ballaghaderreen to Longford.

By the time this is built this the Mayo team won't be able to mentally motivate themselves to spend a whole year training to be runners up/knocked out in the semis again

I think overall here I mightn't be getting my point across clearly. I am fully in favour of the N5 being upgraded, because the road between Ballaghaderreen and Strokestown is not fit for purpose. However, I am not in favour of a) the circuitous route that has been selected for this scheme, b) upgrading the N5 and not upgrading other routes as well and c) the fact that this is the 4th N5 upgrade since this Government has come into power, meanwhile there are huge jams along the M20, in Adare, Macroom, Carrick-on-Shannon etc.

spacetweek · 25-10-2016 1:27pm

It's probably just easier to get a single C through the planning process/objections/funding. Hence N5 but not M20.

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 1:37pm

No, I'm afraid I must be a little bit slow on the uptake here, because you've lost me I'm afraid:

The statement was "Cork people should focus on sorting out their own city first before looking to have links to Limerick improved" as justification for not having an M20.

And you're saying that this is rational, because we procrastinate about building urban transport, and that Cork and Galway etc need urban transport, so we should not build an M20.

Apologies once more, but I'm failing to draw a link between refusing to build a motorway between our second and third largest cities, and the lack of inner urban infrastructure in those cities.

The issue is about the here and now. Given a limited " fiscal space" , we have to decide how to prioritise spending. To me , given the huge issues experienced in the capital every day, we should be directing spending there in the immediate future, not into underpopulated areas of the west. ( that is not to argue that they shouldn't get improved infrastructure , just not now )

Its not a question of fixing Dublin strategically , that would require billions and billions, cause even if we built DU, MN and more Luas, wed only be scratching at the surface. Remember this is a capital where NO new rails lines ( of any material significance ) have been built since 1900. Even DART was just a reworking of existing Dublin suburban. Yet we have the ridiculous expenditure of money on WRC and other follies

suggestions that we somehow abandon Dublin , as a bad experiment, as ridiculous in the extreme, the requirements of nearly 2 million people in the countries powerhouse have to be " somewhat" addressed . It certainly cant be ignored and it basically is at present

hans aus dtschl · 25-10-2016 2:28pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The issue is about the here and now. Given a limited " fiscal space" , we have to decide how to prioritise spending. To me , given the huge issues experienced in the capital every day, we should be directing spending there in the immediate future, not into underpopulated areas of the west. ( that is not to argue that they shouldn't get improved infrastructure , just not now )

Its not a question of fixing Dublin strategically , that would require billions and billions, cause even if we built DU, MN and more Luas, wed only be scratching at the surface. Remember this is a capital where NO new rails lines ( of any material significance ) have been built since 1900. Even DART was just a reworking of existing Dublin suburban. Yet we have the ridiculous expenditure of money on WRC and other follies

suggestions that we somehow abandon Dublin , as a bad experiment, as ridiculous in the extreme, the requirements of nearly 2 million people in the countries powerhouse have to be " somewhat" addressed . It certainly cant be ignored and it basically is at present

See I think you're on a different page of the book entirely here: we're all talking about linking Cork and Limerick, not an underpopulated area of the west.
And we're talking about doing that to alleviate the pressure on Dublin's infrastructure.
And we're not talking about this development INSTEAD of upgrading Dublin area infrastructure, we're talking about it ALONGSIDE upgrading Dublin area infrastructure.

Nobody is suggesting we "abandon" Dublin by building the M20. In fact you and others on here are arguing in favour of further isolating Dublin, by ensuring that it is the only economically viable region in the country.

I'm not sure if you realise it, but you're effectively arguing in favour of greater centralisation. You're arguing in favour of Dublin subsidising the rest of the country to a greater percentage in future.

Personally, I think that would be reckless. And several economic reports down through the years agree with me. We need to focus on the urban areas to drive our economy. No report we have commissioned to date states that Dublin should be the only economically viable area in the country.

Lastly, in what way do the aforementioned Cork inner-city traffic issues negate the need for the M20? Or was it - as I was generously hinting - just a ridiculous argument?

I'll put it another way for you: WHY do we need to invest so much in Dublin all of a sudden, just a few years after completing the M50, T2, Luas, Port Tunnel? Because it's growing very very fast. Probably one of the faster growing cities in the EU (I'm guessing). Why is it growing very fast? Because every other region in the country is becoming economically unviable due to chronic under investment. We have a two-tier economy. Once you accept that premise, the question is how to address it. Do we become a city-state, as is the current trajectory, with the rest of the country being designated rural/tourism, or do we implement some of the reports which urge us to build up either one or two other large urban regions. At the moment we're doing neither.

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 2:38pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

See I think you're on a different page of the book entirely here: we're all talking about linking Cork and Limerick, not an underpopulated area of the west.
And we're talking about doing that to alleviate the pressure on Dublin's infrastructure.
And we're not talking about this development INSTEAD of upgrading Dublin area infrastructure, we're talking about it ALONGSIDE upgrading Dublin area infrastructure.

Nobody is suggesting we "abandon" Dublin by building the M20. In fact you and others on here are arguing in favour of further isolating Dublin, by ensuring that it is the only economically viable region in the country.

I'm not sure if you realise it, but you're effectively arguing in favour of greater centralisation. You're arguing in favour of Dublin subsidising the rest of the country to a greater percentage in future.

Personally, I think that would be reckless. And several economic reports down through the years agree with me. We need to focus on the urban areas to drive our economy. No report we have commissioned to date states that Dublin should be the only economically viable area in the country.

Lastly, in what way do the aforementioned Cork inner-city traffic issues negate the need for the M20? Or was it - as I was generously hinting - just a ridiculous argument?

IN a situation where fiscal space was available, your arguments are fine. IN a situation that is likely to pertain here for some time, i.e. the ceiling placed on capital spending by the growth and stability pact, then you have to consider priority of spending. The " one for all in the audience " type of infrastructure , that is primarily political driven is doing great harm.

The need is to address Dublin's issues now, as they are arguably beyond breaking point. in particular we need a large scale rail-based infrastructure development program, with many such programs running simultaneously.

If that removes spending elsewhere for a time, then so be it. The next time round , funding can return to a more distributed basis.

Arguably Dublin suffered disproportionally during the celtic tiger, when billions were spent on motorways largely outside the GDA to benefit other cities and rural travel to and from DUBlin etc. Now its time to focus on DUBlin itself

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 2:43pm

I'll put it another way for you: WHY do we need to invest so much in Dublin all of a sudden, just a few years after completing the M50, T2, Luas, Port Tunnel? Because it's growing very very fast. Probably one of the faster growing cities in the EU (I'm guessing). Why is it growing very fast? Because every other region in the country is becoming economically unviable due to chronic under investment. We have a two-tier economy. Once you accept that premise, the question is how to address it. Do we become a city-state, as is the current trajectory, with the rest of the country being designated rural/tourism, or do we implement some of the reports which urge us to build up either one or two other large urban regions. At the moment we're doing neither.

There is no evidence that Dublin is growing fast because of infrastructure development. There is clear evidence that Dublin is growing because the type of high tech industry its attracting like a famous style infrastructure where its peers are close and that Dublin as a place to live is attractive ( too a point ) to many young people that typically work there.

Add to this the natural draw to a capital for finance, and clerical operations and you have the growth

If anything Dublin has grown " despite " its lack if infrastructure

M50 was a 1970s planning decision , T2 is a countrywide resource , LUas is incredible limited in scope and the Port Tunnel was and is arguably a compete waste of money as its utterly under utilised and did nothing to help commuters

as I said we have a capital where no heavy rail project has been undertaken since 1900 , 1900 !!!!

hans aus dtschl · 25-10-2016 3:39pm

BoatMad wrote: »

There is no evidence that Dublin is growing fast because of infrastructure development. There is clear evidence that Dublin is growing because the type of high tech industry its attracting like a famous style infrastructure where its peers are close and that Dublin as a place to live is attractive ( too a point ) to many young people that typically work there.

Add to this the natural draw to a capital for finance, and clerical operations and you have the growth

If anything Dublin has grown " despite " its lack if infrastructure

M50 was a 1970s planning decision , T2 is a countrywide resource , LUas is incredible limited in scope and the Port Tunnel was and is arguably a compete waste of money as its utterly under utilised and did nothing to help commuters

as I said we have a capital where no heavy rail project has been undertaken since 1900 , 1900 !!!!

Sorry, you're conflating two things: you're responding as though I said "Dublin is growing fast because of infrastructure development".
I said "Dublin is growing fast because of lack of infrastructure everywhere else in the country".

Like you say, the greater Dublin region's growing in spite of any infrastructural investment. But it is indeed growing faster than anywhere else in the country, is it not?

It seems a pretty simple decision to me: city-state or all-island economy. You can't have both unfortunately.
If you want the former, we invest heavily in Dublin. Give up on the 61% of citizens outside the greater Dublin region, let them move to Dublin: expand the city and be done with it.
If you want an all-island economy, you need some of the infrastructure elsewhere to broadly match Dublin's. Inter-city travel should be possible (by rail and motorway). Airports and ports should have viable infrastructure.

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 3:44pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Sorry, you're conflating two things: you're responding as though I said "Dublin is growing fast because of infrastructure development".
I said "Dublin is growing fast because of lack of infrastructure everywhere else in the country".

Like you say, the greater Dublin region's growing in spite of any infrastructural investment. But it is indeed growing faster than anywhere else in the country, is it not?

It seems a pretty simple decision to me: city-state or all-island economy. You can't have both unfortunately.
If you want the former, we invest heavily in Dublin. Give up on the 61% of citizens outside the greater Dublin region, let them move to Dublin: expand the city and be done with it.
If you want an all-island economy, you need some of the infrastructure elsewhere to broadly match Dublin's. Inter-city travel should be possible (by rail and motorway). Airports and ports should have viable infrastructure.

The issue is you do both , but transferring significant growth to non GDA regions has proven to be difficult and is probably a 30-50 year project

in the mean time, we need to fix key deficiencies in Dublin mass transit system within a fiscal space that is very limited by diktat. That requires prioritising spending in the Dublin region for a period. Then we can return to outside GDA investment on a longer term plan to de-emphaise the GDA.

hans aus dtschl · 25-10-2016 3:52pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The issue is you do both , but transferring significant growth to non GDA regions has proven to be difficult and is probably a 30-50 year project

in the mean time, we need to fix key deficiencies in Dublin mass transit system within a fiscal space that is very limited by diktat. That requires prioritising spending in the Dublin region for a period. Then we can return to outside GDA investment on a longer term plan to de-emphaise the GDA.

I'm sorry again I don't understand: you're saying we've been trying to transfer growth to non GDA regions...I'm struggling to find evidence of this, when only one location in the country has a proper motorway network, proper light rail network, proper airport, proper broadband infrastructure etc etc etc.
If this is a 30-50 year project, when will the start date be? Presumably when Dublin is complete?
When will Dublin be complete? Presumably when it has >90% of the population and economic output?
What then will be the point of transferring growth to other regions? That would be wasted expenditure.

Carawaystick · 25-10-2016 4:00pm

Galway and Limerick have a rail link and will soon have a motorway linking them. The railway's a pointless waste of scarce resources though.

hans aus dtschl · 25-10-2016 4:11pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Galway and Limerick have a rail link and will soon have a motorway linking them. The railway's a pointless waste of scarce resources though.

I agree.

We followed the "something for everyone" approach rather than the "cost/benefit to our economy" approach.
Though I disagree in some ways with BoatMad above, we're broadly singing from the same hymn sheet: infrastructure needs to be put in place for the key economic centres first. We simply disagree on what those economic centres should be.

Carawaystick · 25-10-2016 4:16pm

I can't understand why there's no motorway from Cork to Limerick though. Having a good link between these would give some pole to oppose Dublin.

I can't help but think even in the northeast with 3 "cities" linked by the same road and trainline, Belfast gets all the benefit.

BoatMad · 25-10-2016 4:21pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I'm sorry again I don't understand: you're saying we've been trying to transfer growth to non GDA regions...I'm struggling to find evidence of this, when only one location in the country has a proper motorway network, proper light rail network, proper airport, proper broadband infrastructure etc etc etc.
If this is a 30-50 year project, when will the start date be? Presumably when Dublin is complete?
When will Dublin be complete? Presumably when it has >90% of the population and economic output?
What then will be the point of transferring growth to other regions? That would be wasted expenditure.

we have had decades of attempted spatial strategies, gateway towns , incentivised regional tax and investment incentives, ( BMW regions) , biased EU grant aid etc.

roadways in places like cork, are arguably better then dublin , many have extensive ring roads, bypasses etc. Dublin has had little road infrastructure added since the M50 a road that was planned in the seventies

repeatedly high capital cost rail projects in the city have been postponed , in order to ensure that rural capital projects were capable of being financed

I would agree that urban focused developments should be also made in other major centres, like Cork and limerick. I would de-prioritise rural and interurban development until major Dublin large scale capital projects are complete

I;m not saying that Dublin should be endlessly prioritised , merely over a 10 year period to ensure that strategic high capital cost projects are completed within the available fiscal space

hans aus dtschl · 25-10-2016 4:34pm

BoatMad wrote: »

we have had decades of attempted spatial strategies, gateway towns , incentivised regional tax and investment incentives, ( BMW regions) , biased EU grant aid etc.

roadways in places like cork, are arguably better then dublin , many have extensive ring roads, bypasses etc. Dublin has had little road infrastructure added since the M50 a road that was planned in the seventies

repeatedly high capital cost rail projects in the city have been postponed , in order to ensure that rural capital projects were capable of being financed

I would agree that urban focused developments should be also made in other major centres, like Cork and limerick. I would de-prioritise rural and interurban development until major Dublin large scale capital projects are complete

I;m not saying that Dublin should be endlessly prioritised , merely over a 10 year period to ensure that strategic high capital cost projects are completed within the available fiscal space

I understand your point and I'm arguing that it's not reasonable to de-prioritise interurban development when one city currently has >6 interurban links, and all other cities only have one link: to that same city! In finishing the Dublin links and no others, we've basically implemented the perfect economic sink-hole.

We have one airport, which now needs to be expanded, the other two either after being asset-stripped, hamstrung by debt and controlled by their direct competitor, or sold as a lost cause. One urban light rail system, one motorway-linked city.

When you look at it like that, the miracle is that anywhere outside of Dublin is a net contributor to the economy at all. But you're arguing that we need to focus only on Dublin, for 10 years. I argue that in those 10 years, there would be no economy outside Dublin worth attempting to build up.

marno21 · 29-10-2016 3:18am

Updates after October 2016:

* N4 C-C and N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle both to have consultancy services appointed for construction phase. Should see both starting now in 2018.
* N6 Galway to be put to ABP in 2017. Assuming no delays and provision of funding we could be looking at a start in 3-4 years time.
* M7 Naas/Newbridge scheme is continuing apace and confirmation from DTTAS that the project will start in 2017.
* Feasability study ongoing on N72 Mallow project.

marno21 · 18-11-2016 3:07am

Various members of TII sat with the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tuesday. Here's an update on the schemes mentioned:

* N52 Ardee BP: CPO done, shovel ready. €15m cost

* N2 border crossing: No firms plan at present, awaiting A5 Phase III

* N2 Clontibret to Emyvale to be advanced as soon as possible

* N6 Galway BP: EIS & business case to be published soon. Submission to ABP due Q1 2017.

* N4 Mullingar to Longford: 50km DC scheme shelved, although corridor protected.

* N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramogue: Preliminary design & EIS being prepared. No plans for funding.

* N16: Being carrierd out as realignments

* N56 Dungloe-Glenties & Mountcharles-Inver: to be carried out as series of small realignments, no major schemes.

* N4 Carrick-on-Shannon BP: Environmentally tricky scheme, but no funding available.

* M20 Cork-Limerick: Traffic surveys to begin shortly, junction strategies and land research. Starting from scratch, consultants to be procured in at least 6 months time. Plan for road scheme to be created over next 6-9 months.

Submission to ABP: approx mid 2020
ABP decision due: 2021 (barring objections)
Construction start: 2023
Completion: 2027

* N72 Mallow Relief Rd: Currently trying to create a route that will eventually fit into the M20 scheme.

* M17/M18 Gort-Tuam: To be opened by 2017 end barring exceptional setbacks

* N17 remaining upgrades from Tuam - Sligo: All suspended. No change expected soon. Charlestown & Tobercurry BPs prioritised.

* N60 Castlebar-Claremorris: To be upgraded piecemeal. 3 Minor schemes (Manulla Cross, Heathlawn & Lagnamuck) being brought to tender stage. No funding at present.

* N73 & N72: Small schemes in pipeline, no funding available to advance.

* N22: Archaeology, fencing, utility diversion in 2017.

* M21/N69: Presented to ABP in 2017.

* Dunkettle: To start on site in early 2019.

The video clips of the meetings are available on the Oireachtas website. It's over 2 hours long so have at it if ye wish.

AugustusMinimus · 18-11-2016 9:39am

The M20 to be completed a full 10 years after the final M17/M18 scheme. Utterly disgraceful by FG.

marno21 · 18-11-2016 9:32pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Has this been officially confirmed? I have read various estimates from September 2023 (RWC) & 2027.

Even in Ireland the planners surely can't ignore the years of work already carried out?

If so, the original project work wasn't put on the shelf. It was sent straight to the landfill, I doubt they even recycled it.

Kieran O'Donnell asked Michael Nolan to go through the process for the M20 and the above is what he said. Sherlock cut this out of the video he put up on Facebook I posted earlier.

19-11-2016 9:19pm

marno21 wrote: »

Various members of TII sat with the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tuesday. Here's an update on the schemes mentioned:

* N52 Ardee BP: CPO done, shovel ready. €15m cost

* N2 border crossing: No firms plan at present, awaiting A5 Phase III

* N2 Clontibret to Emyvale to be advanced as soon as possible

* N6 Galway BP: EIS & business case to be published soon. Submission to ABP due Q1 2017.

* N4 Mullingar to Longford: 50km DC scheme shelved, although corridor protected.

* N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramogue: Preliminary design & EIS being prepared. No plans for funding.

* N16: Being carrierd out as realignments

* N56 Dungloe-Glenties & Mountcharles-Inver: to be carried out as series of small realignments, no major schemes.

* N4 Carrick-on-Shannon BP: Environmentally tricky scheme, but no funding available.

* M20 Cork-Limerick: Traffic surveys to begin shortly, junction strategies and land research. Starting from scratch, consultants to be procured in at least 6 months time. Plan for road scheme to be created over next 6-9 months.

Submission to ABP: approx mid 2020
ABP decision due: 2021 (barring objections)
Construction start: 2023
Completion: 2027

* N72 Mallow Relief Rd: Currently trying to create a route that will eventually fit into the M20 scheme.

* M17/M18 Gort-Tuam: To be opened by 2017 end barring exceptional setbacks

* N17 remaining upgrades from Tuam - Sligo: All suspended. No change expected soon. Charlestown & Tobercurry BPs prioritised.

* N60 Castlebar-Claremorris: To be upgraded piecemeal. 3 Minor schemes (Manulla Cross, Heathlawn & Lagnamuck) being brought to tender stage. No funding at present.

* N73 & N72: Small schemes in pipeline, no funding available to advance.

* N22: Archaeology, fencing, utility diversion in 2017.

* M21/N69: Presented to ABP in 2017.

* Dunkettle: To start on site in early 2019.

The video clips of the meetings are available on the Oireachtas website. It's over 2 hours long so have at it if ye wish.

So basically there going to do almost no new infrastructure within the next 10 years, its embarrassing at this point.

BoatMad · 20-11-2016 11:18pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I understand your point and I'm arguing that it's not reasonable to de-prioritise interurban development when one city currently has >6 interurban links, and all other cities only have one link: to that same city! In finishing the Dublin links and no others, we've basically implemented the perfect economic sink-hole.

We have one airport, which now needs to be expanded, the other two either after being asset-stripped, hamstrung by debt and controlled by their direct competitor, or sold as a lost cause. One urban light rail system, one motorway-linked city.

When you look at it like that, the miracle is that anywhere outside of Dublin is a net contributor to the economy at all. But you're arguing that we need to focus only on Dublin, for 10 years. I argue that in those 10 years, there would be no economy outside Dublin worth attempting to build up.

if we dont focus on Dublin projects , we will have chaos in Dublin
instead we get WRC , while dublin based rail projects get cancelled

hans aus dtschl · 22-11-2016 11:25am

BoatMad wrote: »

if we dont focus on Dublin projects , we will have chaos in Dublin
instead we get WRC , while dublin based rail projects get cancelled

Perhaps we're derailing the thread and should have this discussion elsewhere you and I, but we're 100% agreed, the WRC is a vanity project.

Government Capital Spending on Roads: 2016-2022

Comments