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Government Capital Spending on Roads: 2016-2022

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    #332
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    road_high wrote:
    Just to add I know the N5 between Castlebar and Westport is not great, but I'd hardly put it at the top of any list, particularly when they seem to be allocating so few crumbs. They're are far worse bottlenecks. Clearly a pet Enda Kenny project. It's not of huge national importance.

    Be careful what you say about the N5, the Mayo mob will be out. :pac:

    What's worse is here's what's in the pipeline after the above 13 are done:


    N4: M50 to J8 Kilcock widening/upgrade
    N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge
    M7 Naas to Red Cow
    N11 M50 to Glen of the Downs
    N13/N56 Letterkenny Northern Bypass (TEN-T)
    N14 Manorcunningham to Lifford (TEN-T)
    N14/N15 to A5 Link
    N15 Ballybofey BP (TEN-T)
    N52 Ardee Bypass
    N59 Westport to Mulranny
    N59 Oughterard to Clifden
    N69 Listowel Bypass
    N86 Tralee to Dingle

    NOTHING in the pipeline on the N17, N21, N22, N24 etc, or the high volume national secondaries.

    Of the above, the Ardee & Listowel bypasses are the closest to shovel ready. The N59/N86 schemes are "tourist secondary" schemes that will be done in chunks.


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    #333
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    marno21 wrote: »
    Be careful what you say about the N5, the Mayo mob will be out. :pac:

    What's worse is here's what's in the pipeline after the above 13 are done:


    N4: M50 to J8 Kilcock widening/upgrade
    N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge
    M7 Naas to Red Cow
    N11 M50 to Glen of the Downs
    N13/N56 Letterkenny Northern Bypass (TEN-T)
    N14 Manorcunningham to Lifford (TEN-T)
    N14/N15 to A5 Link
    N15 Ballybofey BP (TEN-T)
    N52 Ardee Bypass
    N59 Westport to Mulranny
    N59 Oughterard to Clifden
    N69 Listowel Bypass
    N86 Tralee to Dingle

    NOTHING in the pipeline on the N17, N21, N22, N24 etc, or the high volume national secondaries.

    Of the above, the Ardee & Listowel bypasses are the closest to shovel ready. The N59/N86 schemes are "tourist secondary" schemes that will be done in chunks.

    Listowel bypass I'm sorry but no way is that a priority above so much else...it's a busy little obscure town on the western seaboard with a road passing through (the N69) that can be handled effectively by an upgraded N21!
    It needs a bypass but nothing like so many other towns and roads I/you can list.
    That N5 stretch is clearly a political pet project, it's need improvement for sure- but not before we have proper N20, 21, 22, 24 etc.
    5,500 people live in Westport and it needs a dual carriageway link why exactly?


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    #334
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,061 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    marno21 wrote: »
    What's worse is here's what's in the pipeline after the above 13 are done:
    Where'd you get that list from? Just from what's in planning?


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    #335
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Where'd you get that list from? Just from what's in planning?
    I think it was Michael Nolan's TII presentation but I could be wrong.

    The current capital plan contains the 8 most advanced schemes in planning and 5 others (2 EU funded ones, Galway BP, cheap Slane BP and we couldn't include the M20 so lets put in something cheaper from the area).

    Most of the ones currently in planning but not funded will be the next schemes built after the Capital Plan ones. The reason being is that the rest are simply too far behind and would take years to get to the construction stage.

    There should be funding given to N4/N17/N21/N22/N24/N25 etc and national secondary schemes to get them shovel ready when the funding is there, otherwise like the M20 you're looking at 10 years from start to finish.


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    #336
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,061 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Still don't understand where you guys are getting these ideas about funding from.

    The Gov stated what the annual road budget would be for the next 5 years last year. From that it was possible to determine when new starts would be happening. It was clear that road maintenance would only reach steady state funding by about 2019 - meaning that spending on maintenance matches deterioration. So of course new starts are ruled out until then too.

    So why is everyone so shocked?


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    #337
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Still don't understand where you guys are getting these ideas about funding from.

    The Gov stated what the annual road budget would be for the next 5 years last year. From that it was possible to determine when new starts would be happening. It was clear that road maintenance would only reach steady state funding by about 2019 - meaning that spending on maintenance matches deterioration. So of course new starts are ruled out until then too.

    So why is everyone so shocked?
    There's no shock - just disappointment that it's the usual cynicism of holding back these schemes til near the election - was there a need to delay the M11/N25 PPPs until early this year to coincide with the election?

    These projects (especially Dunkettle) are massive economic stimulants - it's the fact that there is a severe lack of brain cells across the government that they're being held back. Griffin will lose votes in Kerry because he put up signs along the N22 in Kerry saying "Major Roadworks Ahead - Funding secured for Macroom bypass". He failed to mention that the bypass would open in 2022, and wouldn't start for another 4.5 years.

    That's before you get started on the M20 related ****e.


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    #338
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    The three things that infuriates me currently are the glacial pace of projects, severe lack of funding/will and within that the priorities which I feel aren't always right.


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    #339
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,061 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    More easily explained by a post-recession ramp up in spending. No evidence that it is election related.


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    #340
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    No sign of 2017 TII allocations yet, be interesting to see what's given to what. It'll definitely tell us the status of the M7 scheme for 2017.


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    #341
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    spacetweek wrote: »
    More easily explained by a post-recession ramp up in spending. No evidence that it is election related.
    There was projects advanced in 2009, 2010 and 2011 when the economy was in proper ****. Since 2012 bar the 4 PPPs and the Ballaghaderren BP there has been nothing done at all. As soon as this unit came in we got cancellations and suspensions left right and centre, some on projects that had been in planning for 15 years (N22 dualling for example) and will probably have to go back to square one. A disgraceful amount of money spent that's now been spent for nothing.


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    #342
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    marno21 wrote: »
    There was projects advanced in 2009, 2010 and 2011 when the economy was in proper ****. Since 2012 bar the 4 PPPs and the Ballaghaderren BP there has been nothing done at all. As soon as this unit came in we got cancellations and suspensions left right and centre, some on projects that had been in planning for 15 years (N22 dualling for example) and will probably have to go back to square one. A disgraceful amount of money spent that's now been spent for nothing.

    Then you've Simon Coveney talking horse****e about regional planning. Nothing can ever happen without the infrastructure. And no talk of funding. Could do a better job myself, at least I'd be honest about what's achievable.


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    #343
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    marno21 wrote: »
    There was projects advanced in 2009, 2010 and 2011 when the economy was in proper ****. Since 2012 bar the 4 PPPs and the Ballaghaderren BP there has been nothing done at all. As soon as this unit came in we got cancellations and suspensions left right and centre, some on projects that had been in planning for 15 years (N22 dualling for example) and will probably have to go back to square one. A disgraceful amount of money spent that's now been spent for nothing.

    Is that the N22 around Macroom? I thought that one was all but ready to go?
    I know Adare was a cock up alright, should have went ahead with the original plan with the N20.


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    #344
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    road_high wrote: »
    Is that the N22 around Macroom? I thought that one was all but ready to go?
    I know Adare was a cock up alright, should have went ahead with the original plan with the N20.
    N22 Macroom - Ovens dual carraigeway. Recommended in Road Needs Study 1998, been in planning from then until 2011. Badly needed especially east of Macroom where the road is a dirt track and very high traffic, there was an accident there last Friday.

    N22 around Macroom is shovel ready, N21 Adare BP is now in its rightful routing instead of the ridiculous circuitous routing as part of M20 scheme. It seems road planners back 2007-2009 thought they could put a road anywhere and people would use it. (We will see about how traffic on the new M17 is).


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    #345
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    marno21 wrote: »
    N22 Macroom - Ovens dual carraigeway. Recommended in Road Needs Study 1998, been in planning from then until 2011. Badly needed especially east of Macroom where the road is a dirt track and very high traffic, there was an accident there last Friday.

    N22 around Macroom is shovel ready, N21 Adare BP is now in its rightful routing instead of the ridiculous circuitous routing as part of M20 scheme. It seems road planners back 2007-2009 thought they could put a road anywhere and people would use it. (We will see about how traffic on the new M17 is).

    Not overly familiar with the planned original N20/21 route but have vague recollection that it followed an extended M20 down to the next junction and then branched off to become N21 meeting the existing N21 near Rathkeale? I didn't think anything wrong with that idea but you say otherwise - did it add large mileage to the journey?


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    #346
    Vanquished
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Vanquished


    road_high wrote: »
    Not overly familiar with the planned original N20/21 route but have vague recollection that it followed an extended M20 down to the next junction and then branched off to become N21 meeting the existing N21 near Rathkeale? I didn't think anything wrong with that idea but you say otherwise - did it add large mileage to the journey?

    A route to the north of Adare was chosen for the bypass in or around 2006. It was subsequently discarded and replaced by a new route to the south of the village under the premise that the alignment of the proposed M20 necessitated a redesign. But essentially they went for a southern routing just because it provided the cheapest option.

    An Bord Pleanala rejected the planning application in 2012 as it wasn't considered to provide an effective bypass route for the village. That debacle led to the re-examination of the route options and a return to the northern corridor a decade after it had been originally chosen.

    Attached: rejected N21 Adare bypass route.


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    #347
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Vanquished wrote: »
    A route to the north of Adare was chosen for the bypass in or around 2006. It was subsequently discarded and replaced by a new route to the south of the village under the premise that the alignment of the proposed M20 necessitated a redesign. But essentially they went for a southern routing just because it provided the cheapest option.

    An Bord Pleanala rejected the planning application in 2012 as it wasn't considered to provide an effective bypass route for the village. That debacle led to the re-examination of the route options and a return to the northern corridor a decade after it had been originally chosen.

    Attached: rejected N21 Adare bypass route.

    I'm willing to stand corrected but I see nothing wrong with that route? Tying it into the M20 as a spur off it like that looks perfectly sensible to me. Better than the current situation which means nothing happened whatsoever.


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    #348
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    road_high wrote: »
    I'm willing to stand corrected but I see nothing wrong with that route? Tying it into the M20 as a spur off it like that looks perfectly sensible to me. Better than the current situation which means nothing happened whatsoever.

    If they hadn't binned the original Northern route so that they could tie into the M20 then Adare would probably have a bypass by now.


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    #349
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The route as proposed on the M20 scheme around 2010 was an incredibly circuitous route that benefited no one. When built, it would've been quicker routing through Adare than taking the "bypass". The new (2015) route is much more beneficial for N21 traffic and doesn't take users on a massively circuitous route. The M20 scheme can now proceed without this ludicrous "bypass".


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    #350
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    road_high wrote: »
    I'm willing to stand corrected but I see nothing wrong with that route? Tying it into the M20 as a spur off it like that looks perfectly sensible to me. Better than the current situation which means nothing happened whatsoever.

    The M20 scheme was canned so it wouldn't have been built regardless
    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    If they hadn't binned the original Northern route so that they could tie into the M20 then Adare would probably have a bypass by now.

    True, but it would likely have been a single carraigeway bypass and be under serious pressure at this stage anyway. Hopefully sense is seen and this is built as motorway.


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    #351
    MayoSalmon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭MayoSalmon


    marno21 wrote:
    There was projects advanced in 2009, 2010 and 2011 when the economy was in proper ****. Since 2012 bar the 4 PPPs and the Ballaghaderren BP there has been nothing done at all. As soon as this unit came in we got cancellations and suspensions left right and centre, some on projects that had been in planning for 15 years (N22 dualling for example) and will probably have to go back to square one. A disgraceful amount of money spent that's now been spent for nothing.


    15 years planning a bypass..How Irish my god!!


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    #352
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    15 years planning a bypass..How Irish my god!!
    Still not built, and won't be done this side of 2025 either


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    #353
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,414 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    15 years planning a bypass..How Irish my god!!

    That's nothing...if only it were 15 years most of these places would be well bypassed by now :pac:


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    #354
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,061 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    15 years planning a bypass..How Irish my god!!

    There are plenty that took far longer than that! I recall a few taking 30+ years.


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    #355
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII allocations for 2017:

    Capital plan

    Scheme title | Allocation (€)
    N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin | 7,500,000
    N5 Westport to Turlough | 14,550,000
    M7 Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade | 13,610,000
    N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange | 0
    N22 Macroom to Ballyvourney | 14,000,000
    N56 Dungloe to Glenties | 1,850,000
    N56 Mouncharles to Inver | 500,000*
    N59 Moycullen BP | 2,040,000
    |
    N2 Slane BP | 1,200,000
    N6 Galway City Bypass | 1,700,000
    N21/N69 Foynes to Limerick | 2,300,000
    M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy | 500,000
    N72 Mallow Relief Road | 0


    Other major schemes
    Scheme title | Allocation
    N5 Ballaghaderreen to Longford | 700,000
    N13 Ballybofey/Stranorlar BP | 1,000,000**
    N13 Letterkenny DC Upgrade | 1,000,000**
    N14 Letterkenny to Lifford | 1,000,000**
    N56 Letterkenny Relief Road | 1,000,000**
    M20 Cork to Limerick | 1,000,000
    N3 upgrade near Dublin | 300,000
    N86 Tralee to Dingle | 5,000,000***




    * includes "Mountcharles to Drumbeigh" - is this scheme being done in parts despite being 4.9km of mainly online SC?
    ** 1m shared between four schemes, early planning done together
    *** planning for rest of scheme, €2,200,000 allocated for 2017 start of Listowel-Mountoven section


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    #356
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭Limerick74


    Are the TII 2017 allocations published by DTTAS or TII?


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    #357
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,545 ✭✭✭kub


    Dunkettle gets 0.

    Does anyone know the daily traffic numbers at Dunkettle ?

    Interesting that Ringaskiddy gets 500.000, isn't Dunkettle supposed to be finished before that Ringaskiddy Motorway can open?


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    #358
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    kub wrote: »
    Dunkettle gets 0.

    Does anyone know the daily traffic numbers at Dunkettle ?

    Interesting that Ringaskiddy gets 500.000, isn't Dunkettle supposed to be finished before that Ringaskiddy Motorway can open?
    Most estimates for traffic numbers at Dunkettle are ~80/90k daily.

    The word earlier in the year was that Dunkettle was priority #1, Macroom next. Lots for Macroom this year and nothing for Dunkettle. Creed must be worried.

    Ringaskiddy is still a few years from starting. Dunkettle is ready to go. Dunkettle has a programmed start date of early 2019, whereas M28 won't start til 2021 at least.


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    #359
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    Nothing for the Killaloe bypass, Shannon crossing & R494 Birdhill-Killaloe?


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    #360
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Nothing for the Killaloe bypass, Shannon crossing & R494 Birdhill-Killaloe?
    These are national roads only, from the TII. There's nothing about the Limerick Distributor Road either, those allocations are to the local authorities involved.


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    #361
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Feel free to post about it if you find something. The Killaloe package is a Government funded scheme under the Building on Recovery Capital Investment Plan, so is definately on topic here. It's just not part of the TII's allocations announced yesterday.


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