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Garda and Social Welfare Road Checkpoint.

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2

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    #32
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    gally wrote: »
    Look, if you,ve nothing to hide whats the problem?If drawing the dole and working you,re depriving genuine needy cases and stealing from the working taxpayer.

    I take personal offense at your insinuation, but I,m not going to elevate it into an argument, as I dont want to derail this thread. I,ve been contributing to this website for a good few years, and I am 100% confident that you wont find anyone here that can call my honesty or integrity into question.

    I have already stated that I am not involved in any criminal activity, nor have I been stopped at any checkpoint, manned by garda and social welfare , ever. And I would ask you to respect my honesty in relation to any posts I,ve made so far.

    I am interested in the legalities of detaining law abiding citizens in such a situation, thats it. There is no other agenda at play here.

    When I was told that these checkpoints are in operation nationwide, and have been for some time, it surprised me, and aroused my curiosity. I never heard on the tv,radio, or read in the media about these multi agency checkpoints, and i was wondering about a persons rights when stopped at one.Thats why I asked the particular question.

    kadman


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    #33
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,290 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Garda: Good morning, could I ask where you're heading?
    Driver: I'm off to work in _________
    Garda (pointing): OK, can you pull in here to talk to this person.
    thebman wrote: »
    So is this a message to unemployed construction foke to take their jackets out of their vehicles and work tools etc... in case they are stopped?

    It seems kind of crazy, the persond could just have left the crap in the car.

    By that logic, I work in IT so if I have my laptop in my car can they presume I'm going to work with a client instead of visiting my parents or going to help a friend and won't be getting paid?

    Having tools isn't proof that your working I would have thought.


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    #34
    darragh o meara
    Registered Users Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭darragh o meara


    Was stopped recently at one of these checkpoints. Now I was not working at the time and claiming jobseekers. Where I was caughy was I was told that because my jeep was. Commercial and taxed commercialy I was in breach of some law and could expect a subbobs in the next few weeks. Haven't heard anything yet but don't see how or why they would summons me? Also all I was asked was if I was working and for my prsi number.


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    #35
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    Omeara_darragh wrote: »
    Was stopped recently at one of these checkpoints. Now I was not working at the time and claiming jobseekers. Where I was caughy was I was told that because my jeep was. Commercial and taxed commercialy I was in breach of some law and could expect a subbobs in the next few weeks. Haven't heard anything yet but don't see how or why they would summons me? Also all I was asked was if I was working and for my prsi number.

    Hmmmmm that opens a hole new can of worms :D

    Commercial vehicle tax is for a comercial vehicle and you were using it as a private vehicle, think that may be the problem. Admitting you were on jobseekers just proved that you wern't using the vehicle comercially catch 22 as if you were using it comercially please say hello and explain to Mr SW Officer over there.


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    #36
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    But.....

    If you had a commercial pickup, you could only insure it commercialy, tax it commercialy, and use it privately. And you could wave at Mr SW when you drive by him........couldn,t you.

    Commercial insurance policies ask you if you intend to use the vehicle for personal use, or commercial trade, if my memory serves me well. But I am open to correction here.

    kadman


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    #37
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    They can be taxed privately for some crazy amount.


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    #38
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    But if they are taxed privately, do they have to do a doe or Nct.

    kadman


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    #39
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Neither.

    As it is privately taxed the DOE does not apply. NCTS do not test pickups. It is a loophole that has been exploited for years. :)


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    #40
    ttm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭ttm


    kadman wrote: »
    But.....

    If you had a commercial pickup, you could only insure it commercialy, tax it commercialy, and use it privately. And you could wave at Mr SW when you drive by him........couldn,t you.

    Commercial insurance policies ask you if you intend to use the vehicle for personal use, or commercial trade, if my memory serves me well. But I am open to correction here.

    kadman

    I can see your point but I did discuss this at length with someone in the tax office (but that wouldn't mean they knew what they were talking about) and they said that technically if you go home then pop down the shop at night in a commercial vehicle for Fish and Chips after a hard days work you are commiting an offence. They also said that no one ever takes any notice of it.


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    #41
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    ttm wrote: »
    I can see your point but I did discuss this at length with someone in the tax office (but that wouldn't mean they knew what they were talking about) and they said that technically if you go home then pop down the shop at night in a commercial vehicle for Fish and Chips after a hard days work you are commiting an offence. They also said that no one ever takes any notice of it.
    Some councils wanted a goods vehicle declaration to tax a vehicle as goods. It said something along the lines of the vehicle would only be used for commercial use.

    I don't think the form had any basis in law but some places demanded it and others didn't and I haven't heard of it for years.


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    #42
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    Bond-007 wrote: »
    Neither.

    As it is privately taxed the DOE does not apply. NCTS do not test pickups. It is a loophole that has been exploited for years. :)

    But how do you explain to Mr Plod, why you dont have either to prove roadworthiness.

    kadman


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    #43
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Most of them are aware of it.


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    #44
    Johnny Utah
    Registered Users Posts: 2,157 ✭✭✭Johnny Utah


    Bond-007 wrote: »
    The Garda can ask what he likes but he is only entitled to certain information required by law such as name and address, Date of Birth, insurance information etc. Things like where have you been and where are you going and other chit chat do not need to be answered. Pages 132 and 133 of the current rules of the road explain what the Gardaí can ask for.
    McCrack wrote: »
    In relation to no 1 if you are the driver of a motor vehicle in a public place you are required to allow the Garda reasonable time to discharge their duties. This means stopping if requested and having them check tax, ins., licence, tyres etc. They can demand your name and address and you are obliged to give them this...nothing more, nothing less. So questions like where are you coming or going or what you ate for dinner you don't have to answer.

    If the Garda are operating a mandatory alcohol checkpoint you are of course obliged to co-operate by blowing into the bag if requested.




    Are you both sure about that?

    The Garda could simply say he's investigating an offence in the area, involving a vehicle of similar description, in which case you would probably be obliged to answer any number of questions such as where are going to, etc...... Would you agree?


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    #45
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Nope.

    Only information required by statute is required to be given. Anything else the right to silence can be invoked.


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    #46
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    I drop my casual slips into the social welfare office in Tallaght. 2 or 3 times theres been northern reg cars pulled into the coach stop outside the office, 50 yard sor so from the Garda station. If the Gards want they dont have to go very far to catch someone...........

    With the amount of Gards in and out of the station , the only conclusion to draw is that they dont very much care.



    Why try to antagonise Gards at a checkpoint by refusing to answer them (assumign you've nothign to hide)? All it's going to achieve is they will think you do have somehtign to hide and will look for any tiny reason to take you in and quiz you further.

    The "stick it to the man " attitude is quite frankly retarded and helps no one, not least yourself. You might think your being cool and showing him whos boss but tbh, your better off heading home to sit under the stairs with a tinfoil hat where no one can get you.


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    #47
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Nobody suggested anybody should play mute at a checkpoint, the legal requirements of persons in control of a vehicle in a public place to give a Garda were stated, that's all.

    The tinfoil hat under the stairs is a new for to me.


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    #48
    kadman
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭kadman


    McCrack wrote: »
    Nobody suggested anybody should play mute at a checkpoint, the legal requirements of persons in control of a vehicle in a public place to give a Garda were stated, that's all.

    The tinfoil hat under the stairs is a new for to me.

    Am I legally obliged to relinquish my tin foil hat at a checkpoint.....:D

    kadman


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    #49
    Disky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Disky


    The "bend over and take it" attitude of most posters in relation to this topic is quite shocking.

    People have a right to go about their activities without answering every question under the sun, and this "if you remain silent you must have something to hide" notion is insane.


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    #50
    Disky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Disky


    ttm wrote: »
    If someone can dig through the legaleze the act that is being used is here Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005

    Edit> important bit is here......

    (16) A social welfare inspector may, for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, if accompanied by a member of the Garda Síochána in uniform—

    (a) stop any vehicle which he or she reasonably suspects is used in the course of employment or self-employment, and

    Well, the highlighted part would suggest that suspicion is required on the part of the welfare and gardai. Therefore a checkpoint is in contravention of this, unless of course every person on the road is a suspect.


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    #51
    dlambirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭dlambirl


    This used to happen years ago when the Gardai, Customs and Social Welfare had checkpoints. Hit 3 birds with the one stone!

    So what does this mean - the guard stops you and then the social welfare dude talks to you. Asks you what? If your claiming?

    Say your claiming as a single person and you've got a boyfriend/girlfirend with you - what would they do?!

    Surely people on the dole or claiming benefits are entitled to drive and be on the road too!!


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    #52
    Disky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Disky


    dlambirl wrote: »
    This used to happen years ago when the Gardai, Customs and Social Welfare had checkpoints. Hit 3 birds with the one stone!

    So what does this mean - the guard stops you and then the social welfare dude talks to you. Asks you what? If your claiming?

    Say your claiming as a single person and you've got a boyfriend/girlfirend with you - what would they do?!

    Surely people on the dole or claiming benefits are entitled to drive and be on the road too!!

    I think keeping the old mouth shut is the best option when dealing with cops and the masses of inspectors that people have to deal with these days.

    Let them prove what they have to prove, which is near impossible in most cases where the person has not signed his own statement of guilt.


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    #53
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    So long as you give the Gardaí what they require under statute and comply with a section 109 request they is nothing anyone can do.


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    #54
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Disky wrote: »
    I think keeping the old mouth shut is the best option when dealing with cops and the masses of inspectors that people have to deal with these days.

    Let them prove what they have to prove, which is near impossible in most cases where the person has not signed his own statement of guilt.
    If you haven't done anything wrong, then give all the information you want. They're not trying to catch out people who are doing the right thing.


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    #55
    mynameisgraeme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭mynameisgraeme


    ??


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    #56
    Disky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Disky


    seamus wrote: »
    If you haven't done anything wrong, then give all the information you want. They're not trying to catch out people who are doing the right thing.


    And what exactly is the "right thing"???????????????????????????


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    #57
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Disky wrote: »
    And what exactly is the "right thing"???????????????????????????
    What I mean is, if everything is above board in what you do, as it is for most people, then answering a few basic questions from a Garda or other government worker shouldn't exactly present a major dilemma for you. You answer the questions, say goodbye and it's all good.

    If you decide to be silent out of some warped sense of moral outrage, then all you're going to do is waste your time, and waste the Garda/official's time in invesigating you, and by extension you're then wasting government money.

    If you have nothing to hide, why would you keep your mouth shut and cause hassle for yourself? :confused:


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    #58
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    I shall disagree with you there.


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    #59
    Disky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Disky


    seamus wrote: »
    What I mean is, if everything is above board in what you do, as it is for most people, then answering a few basic questions from a Garda or other government worker shouldn't exactly present a major dilemma for you. You answer the questions, say goodbye and it's all good.

    If you decide to be silent out of some warped sense of moral outrage, then all you're going to do is waste your time, and waste the Garda/official's time in invesigating you, and by extension you're then wasting government money.

    If you have nothing to hide, why would you keep your mouth shut and cause hassle for yourself? :confused:

    Oh, just one of those things that previous generations have given up their lives for, PRIVACY.

    A word unknown to the present BEBO generation.


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    #60
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    How is asking you a few questions which you're not legally obliged to answer, any kind of infringement on your privacy?


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    #61
    Disky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Disky


    seamus wrote: »
    How is asking you a few questions which you're not legally obliged to answer, any kind of infringement on your privacy?

    Well, as an earlier poster suggested, these days silence is taken as a sign of guilt.


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