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Should Ireland expand its indigenous arms industry?

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  • 18-06-2009 10:29am
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    In current jobs climate - could this be a possible job creator for many skilled people?

    could this also help reduce costs to some DOD projects because equipment could be sourced locally?

    What are your general thoughts about what could be done, what we could produce, etc?

    This isnt a mitty issue, Im really thinking that this might be a possible avenue to expand both exports and to reduce the costs of importing equipment which COULD be produced here in ireland possibly at a lower price...

    simple items, a munitions factory producing NATO 5.56 7.62 12.77 rounds?

    simple UAV's equivelant to the Orbiter UAV - or even smaller versions that the army procured off Israel?

    Bomb disposal equipment - we already produce some of this, why not expand, there is huge demand for dealing with IED's remotely etc.

    Ship building for smaller inshore naval vessels? - Marine version of UAV's to augment OPVs without heli capabilities?

    comms satellite and IT equipment?

    Expand Timoney or other industries producing more parts of vehicles with dual uses?

    any other suggestions?

    heres food for thought on it anyway:

    http://www.lucindacreighton.ie/?p=885
    Lucinda Creighton

    Minister John Gormely’s proposal that Ireland opt out of the European Defence Agency (EDA) suggests a dire lack of understanding as to how the security and defence system of Europe must operate. It also highlights the truly regrettable fact that Deputy Gormley has not yet discovered that the á la carte membership of the European Union, which was advocated by the Green Party for so many years, is not in Ireland’s short or long term interest. It is interesting to note that the only other European country threatening to withdraw from the EDA is our Euro-sceptic neighbour, the United Kingdom.Firstly, it is important to clarify that the European Defence Agency is not a newly proposed institution. The Agency was established in 2004 and it is fully operational. Thus, the Lisbon Treaty simply clarifies existing practice at Treaty level and gives the EDA a firm legal base.

    Since its inception, Ireland has participated in the framework of the European Defence Agency and is represented on the Steering Board of the EDA by the Minister for Defence. The Agency has made significant progress over the past five years, notably in areas such as the development of the EDA Code of Conduct for defence procurement and a Code of Best Practice to ensure transparency in procurement of defence equipment. There are 25 subscribing Member States (including Ireland) to the Code of Conduct.

    The European Union, along with all of its Member States, urgently needs to the rapidly changing globalised world, if it is to compete in the new world order. However, Europe is perceived as being weak, and in rapid decline in respect of both population and economic might. Europe needs to improve its own security capacity in light of growing pressures from the rest of the world.

    While Europe plays an ever-increasing role in independent peace keeping operations, such as in Kosovo and Chad, its approach to security and defence policy is very much disjointed. The fragmented nature of European defence and military capabilities offers huge potential benefits through concerted action between Member States, if existing opportunities are seized.

    The logic for greater cooperation is clear. All E.U. Member States face the same security threats, so they should work together to protect each other. Ireland benefits from this as much as any other State. In addition, the USA can no longer carry the majority of the burden of defence across the globe. Europe has a selfish interest in securing the regions which border it, and therefore the EU needs to pull its own weight. European defence cooperation also allows Europe to pursue its own defence agenda, rather than one laid down by the USA, via NATO.

    The European Defence Agency is a strategic corner stone of the common security and defence policy of the E.U. The objective of the EDA is to provide improved security at a reasonable cost. Thus the EDA is not about spending more and more on bigger and bigger armies, as some would have us believe. Rather it is about ensuring greater efficiencies across the EU.

    The value of a fully operational European Defence Agency is obvious. We in Europe require best practice and high standards to be applied and adhered to within the arms industry. We require ethical standards which reflect our values and to which we can subscribe. A fully functioning Defence Agency can help provide this.

    Moreover, military systems are evolving rapidly across the globe, and Europe must respond. Ireland, as a sovereign nation with its own independent armed defence forces, has a duty and a responsibility to ensure that the best possible weaponry, intelligence and support are afforded to the brave men and women who defend our State and participate in international peace keeping missions. This is dangerous work carried out on behalf of the citizens of Ireland and we, as a nation, have an obligation to ensure the best possible support for our troops.

    Armed forces across the EU are increasingly recognising the fact that things have moved from high explosives and military hardware towards communications and computing technology - in other words armed forces in the modern age. There is a clear need to develop our own indigenous expertise in relation to military technology, or “operational sovereignty”. Europe faces a key challenge in that we are so heavily reliant on the United States, who are reluctant to share their technology. This situation is not sustainable and clearly demonstrates the urgent need for Europe to develop its own capabilities, so we can become less reliant on the U.S. This would be the responsible course of action.

    This commitment to improving defence capabilities within the EU is not, contrary to certain opinion, in contravention of Ireland’s traditional policy of neutrality. From the very outset of our membership, Ireland was an enthusiastic proponent of political co-operation within the EEC, including in the sphere of defence policy. The precursor to the European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP) was the European Political Cooperation (EPC), which Ireland embraced in a fulsome fashion, holding the view that it is better to shape policy from within. Ireland’s interests both economically and in terms of the country’s defence needs are inextricably associated with its membership of the EU.

    At all stages, Ireland has been willing to actively support closer cooperation on security and defence matters and was central to its development through active participation at Inter Governmental Conferences and in particular when holding the Presidency of the European Council. Indeed the European Defence Agency was established under the Irish Presidency of the the E.U. in 2004.

    Any decision of the Irish Government to withdraw from the European Defence Agency would only send the wrong signals to our partners in Europe at a time when Ireland needs Europe most. More importantly, it would signal a remarkable policy departure at Government level, to deliberately deprive members of the Irish Defence Forces access to the best possible intelligence, weaponry and military data, which is so crucial for their own safety and security. This would indeed amount to a sorry legacy of the Green Party’s term in power.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    I don't think we should simply because of the cost's in the long term.

    The Start up cost's would be HUGE, but even over time everything would be way more expensive than it needs to be.

    1 round of 5.56 mm Ball ammunition costs around $0.40 If we got some locally produced stuff I am willing to bet it would not be as good and would cost at least $0.55.
    While it may inject a bit of money into the economy it is wholly unnecessary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Ireland has built ships before, I think one or two of the existing fleet were built in Cork, so why not again? There is a long history of shipbuilding on this island, I doubt if it could be too difficult to bring certain skills down from the north to help kick start the thing. I’m sure there would be some EU aid to help with the process as well.

    There are also plenty of electronics skills kicking around, with the likes of Ericsson and Alcatel Lucent having R&D facilities here. Lets face it, most building you see going up these days have massive steel structures so the engineering skills must be around as well.

    Imagine Ireland building ships again, it would be brilliant. Watching a ship being launched creates a massive feel good factor which the country could do with at the moment, it is whether or not the government has the balls to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭neilled


    Ireland has built ships before, I think one or two of the existing fleet were built in Cork, so why not again? There is a long history of shipbuilding on this island, I doubt if it could be too difficult to bring certain skills down from the north to help kick start the thing. I’m sure there would be some EU aid to help with the process as well.

    There are also plenty of electronics skills kicking around, with the likes of Ericsson and Alcatel Lucent having R&D facilities here. Lets face it, most building you see going up these days have massive steel structures so the engineering skills must be around as well.

    Imagine Ireland building ships again, it would be brilliant. Watching a ship being launched creates a massive feel good factor which the country could do with at the moment, it is whether or not the government has the balls to do it.

    Ship building on the Island of Ireland will not be coming back. The yards here would lack the capacity, volume of orders and specialized skills found in the few remaining yards across europe, indeed H & W only survived because of state contracts - our military equipment should be bought to provide value for money for the tax payer and not a well paid welfare scheme. Look at the debacle that is going in UK defence procurement over the last few decades irrespective of who was in power. Anyway the most expensive parts would not be the ship itself, but the expensive mission systems that would have to come from abroad anyway.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    What about the UAV stuff? while not as simple as a radio controlled aircraft with a camera sellotaped onto it, we have the high technology and comms capability and skills for something like this, its a simple enough thing but surely a good start.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    Morphéus wrote: »
    What about the UAV stuff? while not as simple as a radio controlled aircraft with a camera sellotaped onto it, we have the high technology and comms capability and skills for something like this, its a simple enough thing but surely a good start.

    But necessity breeds better products, the Israeli's Neededa good UAV, they made one, we bought it.

    TBH, we could only either rip off their inventions or make worse ones while paying more money.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    Morphéus wrote: »

    Marine version of UAV's to augment OPVs without heli capabilities?

    Thats a brilliant idea, could be used on our ships like Eithne to monitor areas for patrolling/Top cover even or even anti drug operations as the comms between the UAV Operator and whoever is in charge are already proven.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    It's been thought of and tried before.

    There was the DASH, for example, the Drone Anti-Submarine Helicopter which was a UAV with two ASW torpedoes.

    QH-50C_with_MK_44s_Static_Color-Side_Shot.jpg

    Similarly, for observation, the RPQ-2 Pioneer was mounted on US Navy ships in the 1990s.

    800px-Iowa_drone.jpg

    Outside of salt-proofing the UAVs, it seems that there's no particular difficulty in building them, it's old technology at this point, which is well provided for by the Americans, Israelis, and maybe a couple of other countries.

    Any proposed industry in Ireland would need to find a niche market which is not already well dominated by a major player.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    neilled wrote: »
    Ship building on the Island of Ireland will not be coming back. The yards here would lack the capacity, volume of orders and specialized skills found in the few remaining yards across europe, indeed H & W only survived because of state contracts - our military equipment should be bought to provide value for money for the tax payer and not a well paid welfare scheme. Look at the debacle that is going in UK defence procurement over the last few decades irrespective of who was in power. Anyway the most expensive parts would not be the ship itself, but the expensive mission systems that would have to come from abroad anyway.

    I would have agreed with you 5 years ago, however the manner and method of shipbuilding these days actually lends itself to the smaller yard being more efficient, and better able to cope during lean times, engaging in other engineering projects, of which there are always some on offer
    H&W, and to a certain extent Verolme, specialised in building Big. Verolme had 2 slips,3 fab sheds and towards the end, 1 drydock and 2 floating docks, meaning it expected to be building at least 3 ships at any one time.

    Current practice is to build the ship indoors completely, and then roll it out into the floating dock for fitout. Less big lifts of modules outdoors, less work lost to unfavourable weather.

    If a big build is required, it is common practice for a number of yards to build sections. The new RN destroyers, and the Planned carriers will have the construction shared with a number of yards, spread all over the UK.
    We also have the potential to capture the market in alternative energy. Wave energy generation has been quite successful in trials off the west coast. We need a marine engineering facility capable of ramping up to full production sooner, rather than later, before someone else steals the run.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,494 ✭✭✭citizen_p


    i think they should start making weapon parts..... maybe not full assembly but parts of new rifles etc...

    or even invite existing companys....


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    I have heard that our constitution forbids the manufacture of weapons?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭pigeonbutler


    Morphéus wrote: »
    I have heard that our constitution forbids the manufacture of weapons?

    Not true. It does say only the government may operate an armed force (ie. Army) but that's not the same thing at all.

    The constitution is a pretty short and very readable document. Try reading it so that you'll be in a position to call BS when someone says something daft like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    NO!

    It will destroy our neutrality if we supply weapons to the NATO imperialist aggressors.


    And, errr, won't somebody please think of the children??


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    great, have emailed said person and corrected them re the arms production.
    I still think there has to be SOME way of domesticating SOME military products... eg a factory that can produce either a local version of the steyr or re-engineer rifles that are now beyond use and issue them to stores for RDF ... ok that sounds poxy but we could probably build on the munitions at least? from 9mm bullets up to even the most basic 105 shells instead of importing them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    concussion wrote: »
    NO!

    It will destroy our neutrality if we supply weapons to the NATO imperialist aggressors.


    And, errr, won't somebody please think of the children??

    NATO imperialist aggressors......

    What's the fishing like around these here waters??

    Good idea OP, hard to put into practice though.... Who are we gonna export the finished article to? I can see the 'Paddy Spud Gun Bullets' headlines now...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭iceage




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    concussion wrote: »
    NO!

    It will destroy our neutrality if we supply weapons to the NATO imperialist aggressors.

    Curse those damned Swedes and their Bofors/Saab weapons.

    Wait, Oerlikon is Swiss, isn't it? And SIG...

    (I know, you were being satirical)

    NTM


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Dont you think we would want to sort out the coruption in the country first...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭iceage


    Naaaaa mate everybody else is at it, why should Ireland be left out


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 987 ✭✭✭diverdriver


    Most of our so called 'arms' industry are the likes of electronic components that could be used in almost any industry but which are bought by the military. Discussion of it once again exposes our phony neutrality. Real neutral countries like Sweden and Switzerland have arms industries not least because in order to defend neutrality you have to have a military that has a realistic chance of defending your borders. We have a token army, navy and something we call an Air Corps but which more closely resembles a flying club. We don't need to be making bullets or bombers because realistically we have no need of them and in any case we would be going up against long established manufacturers.

    Beside all that, the days of shipbuilding and heavy manufacturing are long past in this part of the world. Even if there was the desire to build up an industry like that, which there isn't. We would be undercut by all the established players. I'm sorry it's a Walter Mittyish suggestion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    so you are saying "why bother"?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭concussion


    Morphéus wrote: »
    great, have emailed said person and corrected them re the arms production.
    I still think there has to be SOME way of domesticating SOME military products... eg a factory that can produce either a local version of the steyr or re-engineer rifles that are now beyond use and issue them to stores for RDF ... ok that sounds poxy but we could probably build on the munitions at least? from 9mm bullets up to even the most basic 105 shells instead of importing them?

    We probably wouldn't require enough to make it such an industry viable, and our costs would probably preclude exporting. I stand by to be corrected however!
    gatecrash wrote: »
    NATO imperialist aggressors......

    What's the fishing like around these here waters??

    Good idea OP, hard to put into practice though.... Who are we gonna export the finished article to? I can see the 'Paddy Spud Gun Bullets' headlines now...

    I was being facetious...


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