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Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?
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I am Pro Europe but this treaty gives Europe a strangle hold over its member states (U.S.E?)
tsk tsk tsk
Declan Ganley wants a United States of Europe
what say you now?
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jeez let my fingers cool down from the last post ffs :P0 -
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i think im gonna code a script to post that everytime anyone mentions United States of Europe
some food for taught there
both Yes and NO sides might have divides but at the end of the day both will fight for the vote
i am posting on my own beliefs no ganley or any other NO party campaign
did you notice i quoted from the treaty itself??????0 -
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No, it's accurate. Legally binding means that the parties to the agreement are bound, in law, to observe the agreement - and that is the case with the guarantees.
What you mean is that the interpretation of the contents, or the relative strength of it compared to some other piece of law, are questions that haven't been tested.
cordially,
Scofflaw
Ok, so the interpretation of the contents have not been tested in a court of law - at last we agree on something
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I don't mean to personally insult you, I know there are a number of people who object to the increased move to QMV and they have their reasons. If everyone on the no side was like yourself this forum would be a much saner place. But just go through the threads on the first page and you'll see that about 95% of the time on this forum is spent tackling people who keep bringing up the same lies over and over and over again. No amount of proof is sufficient for these people because they have a "gut feeling", it's like trying to convince a creationist that evolution exists.I deeply resent that statement i am a working man who has used his vote on every occasion and has never followed any party line, left right centre up or down
Now, I'm going to respond to each of your issues rationally because you appear to be a rational person instead of the normal loons and conspiracy theorists.
When we're dealing with a 300 page document that took five years and millions to write and that 26 other countries have said they want, you don't just throw the whole thing in the bin if one country says no. You find out why they voted no, which parts of the treaty they object to, and see if anything can be done to address those issues. It's not making a mockery of anyone, it's reaching a compromise, it's the essence of democracy.until our last lisbon vote was made a mockary off by our government and europe i never got involved in political discussion and just like my religon i kept my beliefs to myself while respecting others
Now, during the last referendum a number of groups spread some lies very successfully. These lies were that the treaty allowed abortion, allowed Europe to take control of our taxes, effected our neutrality and introduced conscription. There were other lies but these were the the main ones. There was also a lie that the treaty made us lose our commissioner when the reality was that Nice defined we would lose our commissioner and Lisbon just defined exactly how it would be done.
Aside from the lies, large numbers of people voted no because of side issues like a protest vote against the government and the biggest reason for rejection by far was lack of understanding
Three independent surveys were done which found that those were significant reasons for the no vote. you can see some of the results here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland_Bill,_2008#Reasons_for_rejection
The government had no control over these surveys so they were not doctored, those are the answers people gave. The thing about all of the above issues is that there is no way the treaty can be changed to address any of them because none of them are a part of the treaty. So what they did instead was they got legally binding guarantees that all of the lies around abortion, taxation, neutrality and conscription were in fact lies, that the treaty did not effect them in any way. You can't change the treaty to remove something that was never in it but you can guarantee them that it's not in it. And they got another guarantee that the existing rule to reduce the size of the commission in 2014 will not be invoked. See here for more info:
http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_european_commission.html
The most important thing that was done was that people were given a year to learn about the treaty and there's an awful lot more information out there this time (the site I just linked you to is the best for unbiased info) which will hopefully put a large dent in the number of people who voted no because they didn't understand it. I get very angry when someone says they voted no last time because they didn't understand it but they object to the second referendum. It's as if they're saying "how dare you ask me to have some idea what I'm voting on!!!!". They demand the right to vote but refuse to exercise their responsibility to make an informed vote.
Anyway, even though the treaty hasn't changed, significant numbers of people have had their issues addressed, their reasons for voting no are no longer valid (or never were valid), so why not ask them if they've changed their minds?I am Pro Europe but this treaty gives Europe a strangle hold over its member states (U.S.E?)QMV is not good for Ireland in a 27 member Eu. People might think that we are safe ( if we get 3 other countries round the back of the bike shed and give them some of our sweets :rolleyes:)
but we can be shouted down and our voice will not be heard like the days of the commonwealth
Now onto QMV
Firstly, you seem to be under the impression that this is the first time QMV will be brought in. It already applies in a large number of areas and it will apply in some more areas but with very specific exceptions, eg taxation and defence policy. These are the areas moving to QMV:
http://www.face.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62202241
Personally I don't see anything there that I object to. These people are our neighbours, not fascists, communists or aliens. I find it hard to believe that there is anything in those areas that would be great for at least 15 other countries but catastrophic for ourselves. For example sport: why do we need to cling to a veto in that area? What is so contentious that we must be able to prevent the standardisation of safety standards on football pitches, the control of performance enhancing drugs etc? Some things are better decided at EU level because there is no reason for them to be different and it's more efficient and effective for one group to deal with it instead of having 27 organisations all doing the same thing. I like that I'm able to go to any country in Europe and eat the food, secure in the knowledge that it meets EU standards, I like that under Lisbon energy policy will be a bigger EU competence so we can have energy security through more bargaining power and we can all fight climate change together. If Ireland enacts a climate change policy it doesn't make that much of a difference. I like that the EU forced the mobile operators to reduce roaming costs this year, something Ireland couldn't hope to do alone.
Now, QMV is not a blunt instrument that can be used to force things on smaller countries, it's a system of double majority voting where by far the most important requirement is the country requirement which gives every country an equal vote, it's only once that requirement has been met that the populations even matter. Take a look at this page:
http://www.bloggersforeurope.ie/?p=109
It shows that if the bigger countries wanted to "force" something on the smaller ones it would require Germany (17%), The UK (12%), France (12%), Spain (8%), Poland (7%), Italy (12%), Romania (4%), The Netherlands (3%), Greece (2%), Portugal (2%), Belgium (2%), Czech Republic (2%), Hungary (2%), Sweden (1.8%) and Austria (1.8%) all to agree and they represent 88.6% of the EU population. They meet the population requirement of 65% after 6 countries but they still need to get a minimum of 15 to make a change.
Ireland is not losing power to the EU, every country in Europe is sharing some of its power for every country to draw on. We're giving Germany some of our power in return for some of theirs and I think we're coming off better in that deal tbh. Don't think of it like Ireland losing power to block changes, think of it as us gaining power to make changes. Just as a vote can go against us, a vote can go against Germany or The UK and get us something we want. We have representatives in the parliament and the council just like them and in the most important area of QMV they're no bigger than us. You're misunderstanding the 4 country rule btw, it's not meant to allow 4 countries to block changes, it's meant to prevent 3 larger countries from blocking changes. It means that if only 3 large countries object to something then the 65% population requirement doesn't have to be met. They've put a clause in the procedure specifically to prevent the large countries dominating! That's hardly the action of a group that wants absolute power.
You say that our voice won't be heard but take a look at this newspaper ad from the Maastricht referendum saying the same thing (you'll also notice some of the same lies being bandied about in this referendum):
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ZKepX8VopRQ/SkqHGwCTAAI/AAAAAAAAAc8/EMzgh3Rs0bg/s800/mastr2.jpg
People have been saying for 36 years that our voice won't be heard and yet it still is. And that's because the EU doesn't work through strength of will and the big overpowering the small, it works through negotiation, compromise and consensus. It's a union, not an empire. Even in the areas where QMV currently applies unanimity is the norm because everyone's viewpoint is taken into account, veto or not. The main reason for the foundation of the EU was to stop Europe going to war every few years and for all of us to work together for our mutual benefit. If the EU starts to behave like a dictatorship it's not just Ireland who won't stand for it, the entire EU will collapse and what is in my opinion the greatest international project in history will be over. We will all lose that collective power if anyone gets too greedy.
As Scofflaw says, every organisation of this type that has operated on a veto system has collapsed having achieved nothing. Vetoes are undemocratic because they allow the small minority to dictate to the vast majority. It's hard to give examples from the EU because they work through consensus but in the UN almost all countries want the embargo against Cuba lifted but they can't because the US vetoes it. They also veto sanctions against Israel. China vetoes sanctions against Sudan because of business interests there. There are some areas where a veto is appropriate such as taxation policy and defence policy but the areas that are moving to QMV under Lisbon are not those areas. They're things that work better when we all do them together.
When you talk about the EU forcing things on us you should take into account the type of things that come out of the EU. These things that the Irish seem so afraid of are things like women's rights, workers rights for everyone and for disabled people specifically, discrimination laws, food safety regulations and safety and quality standards for all goods. Most of the progressive legislation in Ireland over the last few years has come from the EU. If our interest rates weren't set largely by the ECB Ireland would be a hell of a lot worse off right now and remember that we're about to take advantage of all this shared power by withdrawing €54 billion from the ECB. I worked in Sweden for 6 months and I was delighted to be able to hop on a plane and start work without any hassle with visas due to the freedom of movement of workers. Ireland and the UK were somewhat overrun with foreign labour over the past few years from accession countries but that was a decision of our government. The EU didn't force us to allow them in and most EU countries didn't.
Wow that post went on a lot longer that I thought it would
tl;dr version: QMV is more democratic, more efficient and more effective. It gives us power to make changes that we want and the equal country requirement ensures that our voice cannot be drowned out. It's also specifically designed to stop large countries from dominating. And remember that it's only the specific areas mentioned above that are moving to QMV. We still hold a veto in key areas.0 -
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