Proponents of the No vote

Elmo wrote: »

I think you give the list of proponents of the Yes Vote who all come from very different backgrounds and some are very interested in this treaty for their own ends it has nothing to do with the people of Europe.

That's a very sweeping statement. You really think that every group I listed secretly has some vested interest in getting it passed? That not one of them truly believes the treaty will be good for Ireland and Europe?

Elmo wrote: »

Again a NO vote doesn't take us out of the EU.

I really wish people would stop saying that, the only people who have ever said that are people on the no side straw-manning the yes side. I thin kthis quote sums up the reality quite well:

By rejecting [The Treaty of Lisbon] we are basically saying that we do not want Europe to operate efficiently or rationally, and that we now consider the EU to be a mechanism that is acting in bad faith and not in the interests of the Irish State." - Paul_Hacket

You cannot deny that. We will have rejected EU treaties three times. We seem to have no faith in the EU as evidenced by the dozens of things that people seem terrified will be visited on them if we vote yes. It's undeniable that developing such a reputation can and will effect relations with the EU in the future and the decision of businesses to locate here. There are EU countries they can locate in that aren't fighting their neighbours every step of the way because they're terrified of things that are never going to happen

Elmo wrote: »

When you look at the YES campaign you see that it consists almost entirely of the far left, the far right, the middle, the left, the right and the far out, the liars, the losers and the lunatics.* They're the capitalist, the fascists, the catholic church and the builders and the banks. They're the people who've been supportive of the EU since we joined and would love nothing more than to see Ireland subsumed into an EU nation state to satisfy their various vested interests.

*Just name calling for the sake of it.

Except that that's not true. You have misrepresented several organisations and missed out most of them because they don't appear to have any vested interest, such as charities, unions and retailers. seriously, just look at this cabal of misfits:

· Sinn Fein
· Socialist Workers Party
· The Worker's Party of Ireland
· GUE/NGL group in the European Parliament
· Independence and Democracy group in the EU Parliament
· Libertas
· Coir/Youth Defence
· Irish Society for a Christian Civilisation
· éirígi
· People's Movement
· Irish Peace and Neutrality Alliance
· UNITE The Union
· Campaign Against the European Constitution
· Comhlámh (NGO)
· Communist Party of Ireland
· Community & Workers Action Group
· Irish Anti-War Movement
· Irish Republican Socialist Party
· Irish Socialist Network
· People Before Profit
· Socialist Party
· 32 CSM
· Workers Solidarity Movement.
· ATTAC
· AFRI
· UKIP
· Technical Engineering and Electrical Union
· Independent Workers Union

The only organisations there that have any kind of credibility are the trade unions. I don't know why they're against it but I'd be fairly confident in saying that it's a protest vote over some side issue or because they believe the socialists misquotations about workers rights

mangaroosh wrote: »

I invite him to engage in a logical and rational discussion

...is this the humour forum?

Elmo wrote: »

Seriously I could go on about how the Yes side have acted. Yes to Recovery! Seriously!

You know what you're right. What the hell would these people know about the economy :rolleyes:

American Chamber of Commerce
Construction Industry Federation (CIF)
Consumer Electronic Distributors Association (CEDA)
Cork Chamber of Commerce
Cork City Business Association
Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Dublin City Business Association
Engineers Ireland
Fashion & Footwear Federation
Financial Services Ireland
Galway City Business Association
IBEC
ICMSA
ICT Ireland
ICTU
Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland
Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers
Irish Banking Federation
Irish Congress of Trade Unions
Irish Consultative Committee of Accountancy Bodies
Irish Dairy Industry Association (IDIA)
Irish Exporters Association (IEA)
Irish Farmers Association
Irish Fish Producers’ Organisation
Irish Franchise Association
Irish Hardware & Building Materials Association
Irish Hotels Federation (IHF)
Irish Medical Devices Association (IMDA)
Irish Sheep and Cattle Farmers Association
Irish Software Association (ISA)
Irish Taxation Institute
Irish Tourist Industry Confederation (ITIC)
Irish Travel Agents Association (ITAA)
Killybegs Fishermen’s Organisation
Limerick Chamber of Commerce
Limerick City Business Association
Network Dublin
North Dublin Chamber of Commerce
Pharmachemical Ireland
Retail Ireland
SIPTU
Small Firms Association (SFA)
Society of Irish Motor Industry (SIMI)
South Dublin Chamber
Telecoms and Internet Federation (TIF)
Waterford Chamber of Commerce

Of course we should ask the communist party or Youth Defence. They'll know what to do!

Elmo wrote: »

Again the French and the Dutch did say NO and Denmark said no once they are still part of the EU.

Again, no one on the yes side has ever said that we'll be kicked out of the EU. You are responding to an argument that was never made. We will have said no three times btw

Elmo wrote: »

Our reputation is sound as it will ever be that is just scaremongering from the YES side. I have never said that the NO side have done that but both side are playing foolish games.

I've given a very good explanation as to why our reputation won't be as sound but you've simply stated that it will. What's your reasoning? Also

Elmo wrote: »

Seriously have I misrepresented FF, the Banks, the builders, the developers, the capitalists, the catholic church????? this are just as misfits as any of the organisations that you mention.

Which category do the builders, FF and the church fall into from this list you gave:

the far left, the far right, the middle, the left, the right and the far out, the liars, the losers and the lunatics. They're the capitalist, the fascists.....would love nothing more than to see Ireland subsumed into an EU nation state to satisfy their various vested interests.

The only ones that apply as far as I can see are middle and capitalist. OH NOEESSSS!!

Elmo wrote: »

The those on the Yes really believe Ireland will be taken out of recession with Lisbon.

That's an extremely overly simplistic way of looking at it. Of course it won't single handedly solve all our woes but it will help and since every reason to vote no has some level of falsity to it or is completely irrelevant, we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot for no reason

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Which NO organisations do you most admire then?

Good question. I'm pointing out all the dodgy ones so could you both please tell me which organisation best represents your views and why?

Elmo wrote: »

· FF - Have seen lies from them
· FG - Have seen lies from them
· Labour Party - Have seen lies from them

Such as? Bearing in mind I've explained the context behind the "Yes to recovery" and it's not a lie, it's an opinion which is all you can give about the future

Elmo wrote: »

· EPP group in the European Parliament - - don't know a lot but they appear to be capitalist

OH NOOESS!! :eek:

Where'd you get them from btw?

Elmo wrote: »

· The Banking Federation of Ireland - Nuff said

In what way? Is their opinion on the economy irrelevant?

Elmo wrote: »

· FF - Nuff said

No need to mention them twice

Elmo wrote: »

· The Catholic Church - religious fundamentalists

Seriously? Btw they haven't taken a position on it, just clarified that they are not actively against it because the actual fundamentalists said they were

Elmo wrote: »

· Irish Society for a Christian Civilisation - religious fundamentalists

They're on the no side

Elmo wrote: »

· Any of the UNIONS - Don't know why they're FOR it

Workers rights I would assume

Elmo wrote: »

Recovery will happen regardless of the treaty the treaty has nothing to do with recovery it was written before the economic crisis something that no one on the yes side saw coming so I doubt it bares an real reflection on the economy.

I asked you for a reason and you've just restated your position. Of course it's not directly written down in the treaty. Confidence and uncertainty are not written down in a treaty, there is no clause that says "Confidence in Ireland in the mind of the CEO of AMD will be set at 94% and uncertainty at 3.6% and this will cause him to create 147 new jobs here through a research project". But just because it's not written down in the treaty does not mean that it should be ignored or that pointing it out is scaremongering. You and I both know that this treaty and Ireland's acceptance or rejection of it will have implications far beyond the text written in it and pretending otherwise and insisting on a treaty article that legally sets confidence levels is disingenuous.

If we vote down the treaty again that cements us as a country that's going against the grain in Europe even though being in Europe is one of our most important advantages and creates uncertainty about our future as the EU moves on and we try to fight them every step of the way. It appears that we now consider the EU to be a mechanism that is acting in bad faith and not in the interests of the Irish State. I can't say for sure what the consequences of a second no will be but neither can you say that there will be no consequences.

Ireland is becoming unpredictable and unreliable. There is now pretty much no point in having any future treaties because the Irish people didn't even read this one, they rejected it for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with the treaty. They can't address our problems because they're mostly imaginary and/or irrelevant. We're not technically breaking the rules but we're making life extremely difficult for our neighbours because we're too lazy to read the treaty and would rather get our opinion from a lie on a poster. The government can negotiate until the cows come home but all that will happen is someone with an agenda will stick a lie on a poster and we'll vote it down again. Even if Lisbon does get renegotiated to, say, stop the move to QMV, we'll have idiots shouting "IT'S 90% THE SAME!!!!!!!". Even if they only include things that Ireland can opt out of in future treaties they're not sure to pass because some group could easily tell us that they're not really allowing us to opt out (as is happening now) and we might believe them as we've believed all the other lies. Besides which they don't want to limit themselves to only changes that countries can opt out of. Really the only way to have any confidence of getting a treaty passed in future is for Ireland to be excluded entirely. The situation of a few hundred thousand misinformed people on the peripheries of Europe grinding progress to a halt because of proudly touted misconceptions cannot, should not and will not be allowed to continue forever.

Is your response to that still "it doesn't say in the treaty that it'll fix the economy"?

And honestly, why do you think all of these business representatives are for the treaty if voting yes will have no effect on the economy? What do they have to gain from pretending?

Elmo wrote: »

You can see the lies of all politician parties in any of their Pre-election manifestos. FF is a good example.

With the treaty specifically.....

Elmo wrote: »

The Banking Federation of Ireland's opinion on the economy is irrelevant, the banks and developers brought the economic crisis.

so we should ask the communists, the Shinners and the religious fundamentalists instead? I assume you've taken all your money out of the bank and keep it under the mattress since that's your view?

Elmo wrote: »

Are the NGO's actively campaigning?

I don't think so but they have voiced support. What's their vested interest?

zenno wrote: »

well these are laws we can do without for starters. I think a person is well capable of lowering the volume him/herself. todays news. The european commission (EC) has noted today that all MP3 players sold in the European Union will soon come with a required "default setting," in an effort to "discourage" users from listening to music at volume levels that will eventually hurt their hearing. as if people are braindead and can't understand the logic of this LOL. does the eu commission think people are that thick or is it hard-control over the peoples choices again. idiotic laws from the eu

Unfortunately some are and end up deaf.

I'd really need to see the article and the directive because there is a whole website set up about EU myths.

Elmo wrote: »

My response is that the Treaty was written at a time when the economy across the world was in good shape, I feel that this current treaty will soon be changed due to the economic issue.

You don't seem to be understanding me. It is not a provision in the treaty that will help the economy, it is Ireland's acceptance of it and the resulting goodwill and reputation that will bring. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.

Elmo wrote: »

The Catholic Church has also voice its support. What's their vested interest?

No they haven't as I said. They're neutral, they just came out and said they are not against it as some claimed.

Elmo wrote: »

We could go around in circles all day listing the people who are in favour and those who are not in favour. It might not just be the government and I on some issue agree with many on the Yes in relation to other issues. But it is a waste of time.

Yeah it's a waste of time from your perspective because when a direct comparison is made between the yes proponents and the no proponents there's a very clear winner in terms of reputability and general sanity.

Elmo wrote: »

I don't think we should ask the bank sector because they seem to have even less of a clue on the economy.

What about all the other business groups?

Elmo wrote: »

And that is not the fault of the electorate it is the fault of the government and their current set of policies and their set of policies for the last 12 years.

Again you don't seem to be understanding me. We appear unpredictable and unreliable because we have repeatedly shown that we can so easily be swayed by lies. We're unpredictable in that the EU has absolutely no idea what they can put in a treaty to satisfy us

Elmo wrote: »

Ireland is a very stable political landscape, the main 3 parties have very little difference and it is unlikely that they will rock international waters or cause an major instability in the Irish economy. Saying NO won't change that.

You keep saying that but pretty much everyone who knows anything about the economy disagrees with you. Are you sure that you're looking at this objectively and not with a certain bias of not wanting it to be true?

The way you keep pointing to one or two groups who support a yes to dismiss them and ignoring all of the other ones that don't fit your theory of vested interests and not caring about the country looks a lot to me like confirmation bias

zenno wrote: »

shouldn't it be up to the person that uses this device what volume they want to listen to either way without a dictatorship doing it for them. in relation to k-9 post

I would agree to an extent, though I wouldn't see a problem with reasonable limits if it is becoming an Health issue.

We could have a whole debate over this and other areas, but it would drag this OT. Would be a good idea for a new thread.