The prayers of other faiths

Fanny Cradock · 14-11-2009 4:34am #1

What are the opinions of fellow Christians with regards to the prayers of people of other faiths being answered by God? Do they get answered?

I know a Christian like Peter Kreeft believes that God does, indeed, answer people's prayers, irrespective of their faith. Given that Kreeft is quite orthodox in his views (Catholic by denomination), I assume that he would have a qualifier in there somewhere to state that prayers are answered only if they are working towards God's plan for salvation and redemption. To me this sounds like a plausable position to take. Any thoughts?

While this doesn't detract from the truth of Christianity, or open other doors to salvation by some sort of Unitarian fudge on the Message or resurrection of Jesus, it's a perspective that allows the posibility for truth and purpose (as is understood by Christianity) to exist in other religions.

I'm quite open minded about the possibilities of such things. Although, to avoid any confusion, I will again qualify this by highlighting my belief that all prayers answered would work towards God's end - and here I specify "God" is used in respect of the Christian (and Jewish) understanding of God.

waitinforatrain · 14-11-2009 8:16am

It's ridiculous to say that your (not you specifically) faith is the "one right way". I don't have a link for this, but I read before about how Near-Death experiences are always in the context of the mythology of the person experiencing it. Hindus will have a vision of a Hindu deity rather than the Virgin Mary etc etc.

I think that the symbolism in general is a sort of veil, or a "way of seeing" God, but that the symbol is often confused with what the symbol represents. We have images of God, Mary, Jesus etc. in Christianity, but these are human depictions.

If there is a benevolent force in the universe, and there may well be, I highly doubt it subscribes to one mythology, i.e. one "set of symbols". That is to say it's not "your god" answering the prayers of another religion.

PDN · 14-11-2009 11:32am

I believe that God is a God of grace and mercy, and He has compassion for people in their time of need. Therefore I think it highly likely that He will often respond to the prayers of those who, through ignorance, express their prayers in the wrong words and the wrong ways.

monosharp · 14-11-2009 12:02pm

PDN wrote: »

I believe that God is a God of grace and mercy, and He has compassion for people in their time of need. Therefore I think it highly likely that He will often respond to the prayers of those who, through ignorance, express their prayers in the wrong words and the wrong ways.

Even Scientologists ?

What about Buddhists who don't really 'pray' per say

Fanny Cradock · 14-11-2009 12:28pm

If Buddhists don't pray - at least with respect to how the word is understood in Christianity - then they are excluded from the subject of thread.

PDN · 14-11-2009 1:13pm

monosharp wrote: »

Even Scientologists ?

Yes, God has compassion even for Scientologists.

homer911 · 14-11-2009 1:34pm

To extend the debate, can Satan hear prayers? and can he choose to answer them if it furthers HIS kingdom? (i.e. misdirects people to other faiths instead of Christianity)

PDN · 14-11-2009 2:57pm

homer911 wrote: »

To extend the debate, can Satan hear prayers? and can he choose to answer them if it furthers HIS kingdom? (i.e. misdirects people to other faiths instead of Christianity)

Good question.

If we can communicate with Satan, and if he has powers, then the answer would have to be Yes.

dvpower · 14-11-2009 3:41pm

Can I extend it further? Does God hear private wishes and does he answer them for non believers?

Coriolanus · 14-11-2009 3:44pm

This'll sound facetious, but it's actually not. By Satan hearing prayers, do you mean that he's overhearing well meant prayers to God, Mary, the Saints etc and acts on them, or that people are praying to Satan (or I guess one of his guises. If St Antonhy turned out to be him or whatever).

And just @Fanny, surely that prayers from followers of "the" church (for arguements sake presuming there's one) would be equally subject to answer only if they worked towards Gods plan, just as much as any prayers from a Muslim or a Hindu that he might happen to answer?

chozometroid · 14-11-2009 3:58pm

homer911 wrote: »

To extend the debate, can Satan hear prayers? and can he choose to answer them if it furthers HIS kingdom? (i.e. misdirects people to other faiths instead of Christianity)

I don't believe Satan can read our minds or hear our thoughts, if that's what you are asking.
He can hear our audible prayers, sure.

philologos · 14-11-2009 6:35pm

chozometroid: I'm not so sure about that. I think Satan probably can hear our thoughts, and exploit us when we are at the very lowest point in terms of our faith. I believe that Christians will always have to wrestle with the trials that Satan or other evil presences in our midst will put before us.

hivizman · 14-11-2009 6:37pm

chozometroid wrote: »

I don't believe Satan can read our minds or hear our thoughts, if that's what you are asking.
He can hear our audible prayers, sure.

I was all set to challenge this (like Jakkass just has) and say: "Of course Satan can read our minds!" But then I did some Googling, and came across this interesting discussion of the issue:

Question: "Can Satan read our minds / know our thoughts?"

Answer: First, it is important for us to remember that Satan is not omnipresent – he cannot be in more than one place at a time. Only God is everywhere, only God knows everything, while Satan must rely on his army of demons to do his bidding.

Can Satan and/or his demons read our minds? Scripture does not say specifically whether or not Satan can read our minds. The Bible does teach us that Satan indeed is very powerful. Likely he was the highest of all the fallen angels, as he was persuasive enough to convince one third of the angels to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:4). Even after his fall from heaven, not even Michael the archangel dared to confront him without the Lord’s help (Jude 9). Satan is the “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient” (Ephesians 2:2b). Believers are exhorted “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (James 4:7b).

The Bible gives us no reason to believe Satan and his demons can read our minds. Clearly that would take a measure of omnipresence and omniscience, which they do not have. However, Satan and his demons have been observing and tempting human beings for thousands of years. In addition, they can overhear our speech when we talk to others (and to ourselves!). Surely they have learned a few things about us over the years. Even without the ability to know our thoughts, they can probably make a well-educated guess as to what we are thinking, and then attempt to use it to their advantage. That is why we are commanded to “Submit yourselves, then, to God” (James 4:7a), before we are told to “Resist the devil” (James 4:7b).

I've taken this from the gotquestions.com website, which encourages readers to copy their answers onto other websites. The comment that, even though Satan and his demons can't read our thoughts, "they can probably make a well-educated guess as to what we are thinking", is worth noting.

In response to Fanny Cradock's original post, it would be interesting to test whether God responds to the prayers of non-Christians by updating the experiment described by Russell Stannard in his book The God Experiment (Faber, 1999). Roughly speaking, in that experiment, a group of patients with heart problems was divided into two sub-groups. The members of one sub-group were prayed for, while the members of the other sub-group were not prayed for. The recovery rates of the members of the two groups were compared (unfortunately, if my memory is correct, the sub-group who were prayed for actually had a poorer recovery rate than the sub-group not prayed for).

In the revised experiment, we would need to divide the group of patients into four sub-groups and have a team of Christians and a team of say Muslims. Sub-group A would be prayed for by both Christians and Muslims, sub-group B by Christians alone, sub-group C by Muslims alone and sub-group D by neither religion.

Fanny Cradock · 14-11-2009 11:20pm

Nevore wrote: »

And just @Fanny, surely that prayers from followers of "the" church (for arguements sake presuming there's one) would be equally subject to answer only if they worked towards Gods plan, just as much as any prayers from a Muslim or a Hindu that he might happen to answer?

I would unequivocally say that the answer is yes. Sorry, I just assumed that this would be understood.

Fanny Cradock · 14-11-2009 11:53pm

hivizman wrote: »

In response to Fanny Cradock's original post, it would be interesting to test whether God responds to the prayers of non-Christians by updating the experiment described by Russell Stannard in his book The God Experiment (Faber, 1999). Roughly speaking, in that experiment, a group of patients with heart problems was divided into two sub-groups. The members of one sub-group were prayed for, while the members of the other sub-group were not prayed for. The recovery rates of the members of the two groups were compared (unfortunately, if my memory is correct, the sub-group who were prayed for actually had a poorer recovery rate than the sub-group not prayed for).

In the revised experiment, we would need to divide the group of patients into four sub-groups and have a team of Christians and a team of say Muslims. Sub-group A would be prayed for by both Christians and Muslims, sub-group B by Christians alone, sub-group C by Muslims alone and sub-group D by neither religion.

Such experiments are a waste of time and money. I would even say the same of this meta analysis of various studies into the effects of intercessory prayer that found a positive correlation.

I've said it before, but the test fails the basic requirements of any trial. Why? Because you can't guarantee that the group supposed to not received prayer isn't actually getting it in some form. For instance, any child who prays at night for God to "help all the sick people in the world to get better" puts the kibosh on the idea that there are distinct groups. Besides, if one is of the opinion that God is chiefly concerned with working towards fulfilling his own plan of salvation, redemption, judgement, new creation and whatever else (all of which just so happens to be good for us), rather than curing our physical maladies, then it becomes difficult to establish exactly what prayers he should be answering and how often. I think it perfectly reasonable to suggest that in some divinely inspired butterfly effect, God heals those who will directly or indirectly aid his mysterious plans.

hivizman · 15-11-2009 12:22am

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Such experiments are a waste of time and money. I would even say the same of this meta analysis of various studies into the effects of intercessory prayer that found a positive correlation.

I've said it before, but the test fails the basic requirements of any trial. Why? Because you can't guarantee that the group supposed to not received prayer isn't actually getting it in some form. For instance, any child who prays at night for God to "help all the sick people in the world to get better" puts the kibosh on the idea that there are distinct groups.

I agree with you there - you can't even argue that one group is being prayed for more than the other to any significant extent. I believe that some of those involved in the "God Experiment" thought that the structure of the test was unethical, because they believed in the power and efficacy of intercessory prayer and didn't think it fair to pray for one group of people (whom they didn't know) while not praying for the other group of people (whom they also didn't know).

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Besides, if one is of the opinion that God is chiefly concerned with working towards fulfilling his own plan of salvation, redemption, judgement, new creation and whatever else (all of which just so happens to be good for us), rather than curing our physical maladies, then it becomes difficult to establish exactly what prayers he should be answering and how often. I think it perfectly reasonable to suggest that in some divinely inspired butterfly effect, God heals those who will directly or indirectly aid his mysterious plans.

Does that imply that intercessory prayer is a waste of time, because God will work towards his own plan whether or not we pray?

lmaopml · 15-11-2009 12:13pm

hivizman wrote: »

Does that imply that intercessory prayer is a waste of time, because God will work towards his own plan whether or not we pray?

There are examples in the bible where intercessory prayer by the righteous can sway the wrath of God...and we are asked to pray for one another anyway, so I presume that it isn't a waste of our time.

I think the 'studies' are a bit mad tbh. Aren't we told not to 'test' the lord our God? Sounds like a test to me..lol...:)

Splendour · 16-11-2009 12:14am

lmaopml wrote: »

There are examples in the bible where intercessory prayer by the righteous can sway the wrath of God...and we are asked to pray for one another anyway, so I presume that it isn't a waste of our time.

Yes, I am fascinated by Moses swaying God's thinking in the book of Exodus. Now if only I could sway God on my behalf...

lmaopml · 16-11-2009 12:44am

Splendour wrote: »

Yes, I am fascinated by Moses swaying God's thinking in the book of Exodus. Now if only I could sway God on my behalf...

LOL, I have a 'theory'..! and mind you it's only a theory...that he asked us to pray and more or less 'communicate' with him in order to have 'children'...I am being magnificenty presumptuous though, cause I don't know God's will, I'm only guessing in an entirely human way, and he knows it too...

I often think, why God even created us.....and gave us this inner ability to recognise him. I know that some will say we 'assign' everthing to a 'need' to have purpose etc. but no doubt in my mind there is a prancing, and 'meandering' and even dancing goal to man/womans existence that is headed 'somewhere'...! Some will say it's to a cosmic collision..lol...and others will say it's just too beautiful not to have some purpose....I can't find the words adequate enough to explain it out, but I cannot deny it either....I even 'see' it..lol.! everyday of my life. Sounds 'deluded'? Yup? lol...but I'm happy out because I'm searching and what is life without the search...

Anyway, getting back to the 'theory'! I think God created us, and we are quite splendid lets face it

the same way as we pro-create...to have a family, and friends and to 'love' eachother!

I think it's what we're made for...it's the ultimate!

Fanny Cradock · 16-11-2009 3:32am

hivizman wrote: »

Does that imply that intercessory prayer is a waste of time, because God will work towards his own plan whether or not we pray?

The obvious answer is that anything that is good for God is good for us. But I don't know if that is a sufficient answer.

I guess this opens a discussion into what prayer actually is. The idea that God requires requires prayer flies in the face of what traditional Christianity understands about his nature. doesn't float, imo. In some way, I would imagine, prayer is always for our benefit - even if it is simply clarifying our thoughts.

With regards to the nature of God, one attribute traditionally attributed to him is immutability. How do people reconcile this trait with God's apparent changes of mind that pop up in the bible? It potentially opens up some challenging questions.

Morbert · 16-11-2009 1:14pm

chozometroid wrote: »

I don't believe Satan can read our minds or hear our thoughts, if that's what you are asking.
He can hear our audible prayers, sure.

I don't understand this. Why would Satan be coupled to one natural phenomenon (vibrations propagating through the air) but not another (The potassium ions in our brain, reflecting our thoughts*)?

*Disclaimer: Note the use of the word "reflecting". For the purposes in this thread, I am not saying our thoughts are natural/defined by potassium ions. Brain activity reveals our thoughts regardless.

chozometroid · 16-11-2009 11:41pm

Morbert wrote: »

I don't understand this. Why would Satan be coupled to one natural phenomenon (vibrations propagating through the air) but not another (The potassium ions in our brain, reflecting our thoughts*)?

*Disclaimer: Note the use of the word "reflecting". For the purposes in this thread, I am not saying our thoughts are natural/defined by potassium ions. Brain activity reveals our thoughts regardless.

I always thought there was a major difference between a sense of hearing and an ability to read minds. Might as well ask why can't everyone read minds. You are saying that Satan shouldn't be able to hear because he's not "natural?"

Fanny Cradock · 16-11-2009 11:55pm

I don't see why the position needs qualification. Presumably you understand that we communicate with each other, in part, by speech. We don't communicate by telepathy, for example. And I'm certainly not aware of your average Joe ever measuring potassium ions determine thoughts or intentions. If Satan is not all powerful, then it seems at lest possible that he can't read thoughts. Where is the problem?

I'm not sure I agree with chozometroid, but I can still see his reasoning for holding this position.

As for brain activity revealing thoughts - and here, given the nature of the discussion, I can only assume you mean specific thoughts - I was under the impression that the truth behind such a claim was still somewhere off in the distance.

Morbert · 17-11-2009 1:44pm

Might as well ask why can't everyone read minds.

We can communicate through speech because tiny hairs in our ears detect vibrations through the air. It is a trait that evolved through the years. Satan presumably isn't a primate, or even a physical lifeform. If we can communicate with him at all, then why would it would be through that evolutionary strategy? Why would it only be through air vibrations and not brain activity, or even a spiritual "direct line" similar to the way God communicates? It seems like the claim that Satan can hear us, but not know what we are thinking, is an assumtion based on the bias of everyday, evolutionary communication strategies.

Morbert · 17-11-2009 2:05pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

IAs for brain activity revealing thoughts - and here, given the nature of the discussion, I can only assume you mean specific thoughts - I was under the impression that the truth behind such a claim was still somewhere off in the distance.

This is one of the more unsettling features of modern neuroscience. As instruments become more and more refined, so does our understanding of how brain activity and thoughts are correlated. Low bandwidth, global activity like emotions are are easy to read, but we can now correlate brain activity to more specific things like trust, or the recollection of specific memories over others, or the capacity for "moral restraint" in healthy individuals (I was at a seminar last year about neuroscience apparatus, and was told that people have escaped jailtime because some behaviour traditionally defined by moral choices can now be connected to the structure of specific parts of the brain.). The trend suggests that, if we were aware of the precise movement of action potentials and whatnot in brains, then we would have proper insight into what people are specifically thinking. We don't have such information (and might not ever) because, ironically, we are restricted by our five senses, and must rely on our ingenuity to devise measuring apparatus.

If Satan does not rely on the five senses, and is coupled (interacts) with the natural world in a different manner, then he might have such knowledge.

The prayers of other faiths

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