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Wear a burqa - face a €750 fine

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Comments

  • #122
    mardybumbum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭mardybumbum


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    In that case there are people in France and other countries called "the Police" you might have heard of them................ :rolleyes:



    Yes I have heard of them. They are actually called the genderarmerie. :rolleyes:
    You are assuming that the women forced to wear these things are going to tell the police.


  • #123
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    SprostonGreen wrote: »
    Proper order too, fcuking savages.

    Banned.


  • #124
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    mardybumbum wrote: »
    You are assuming that the women forced to wear these things are going to tell the police.

    That would be normally the recommended procedure in cases of domestric abuse yes.

    Oh and the Gendarmerie are just one Police force in France
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Many people choose to wear it, as a result we should respect their freedom..

    Errr no because apparently some people might be allowing themselves be intimidated into wearing one so therfore nobody should be allowed to wear it out of choice.

    Nanny knows best you see :rolleyes:


  • #125
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I prefer to take the view that people are capable of deciding what they want to wear.


  • #126
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    I prefer to take the view that people are capable of deciding what they want to wear.

    Thats a bit radical next thing youll be suggesting they are capable of deciding what they want to think as well.

    Itll never catch on you know.


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  • #127
    mardybumbum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭mardybumbum


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Many people choose to wear it, as a result we should respect their freedom.

    1.And disregard the freedom of those that dont want to wear it?
    And, no wh shouldn't respect the women that choose to wear it. It has nothing to do with their religion.
    What reason? It's nonsense to suggest that most are even forced to.

    2.The reason I outlined below, double standards. :confused:
    Its common knowledge that a lot of women are forced to wear these things. I dont care if its the minority or majority.
    One woman being forced to wear it is one too many.
    Leviticus is in the Jewish Scriptures, and the death penalty for certain sins was fulfilled by the mercy of Jesus Christ.
    3.Thats fantastic. Go Jesus. Whether the bible says it is ok to stone homosexuals was not my point.
    Yes, it's out of context, and people are free to wear the burqa irrespective of what you think.
    4. See point 1.
    Do you know what the Qur'an actually says on covering? If so please quote it. The law isn't meant to enforce religious interpretation, but rather to protect freedoms.
    Strangely enough. I was in my local library yesterday and had a wee read of it while taking a study break. IIRC the front cover was black, with "The Koran" typed in gold leaf.
    I have a feeling you are going to tell me what it should say.
    While protecting the freedoms of those that wish to wear the burqa, they are allowing the enforcement that ninalucy pointed out to occur.
    It may be in an indirect manner but so what tbh.
    No.
    Yes you did.


  • #128
    mardybumbum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭mardybumbum


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    .

    Oh and the Gendarmerie are just one Police force in France

    I had a feeling you would pick up on that. I was just trying to point out how condascending your wee winky face was.


    " Have you heard France have a police force? "
    Give me some credit.


  • #129
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    mardybumbum wrote: »
    wh shouldn't respect the women that choose to wear it..

    Why not ? who the hell are you to dictate what others can choose to wear :mad:
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with their religion..
    what difference does that make ?
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    And disregard the freedom of those that dont want to wear it
    If they dont want to wear it then....er.... they shouldnt wear it. Its not really that hard is it ?


  • #130
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    mardybumbum wrote: »
    1.And disregard the freedom of those that dont want to wear it?
    And, no wh shouldn't respect the women that choose to wear it. It has nothing to do with their religion.

    Why should they, or we respect you by extension? Or your beliefs? This is a free society and I personally hope it stays that way.
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    2.The reason I outlined below, double standards. :confused:
    Its common knowledge that a lot of women are forced to wear these things. I dont care if its the minority or majority.
    One woman being forced to wear it is one too many.

    You'd have to prove that most do to warrant banning it.
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    3.Thats fantastic. Go Jesus. Whether the bible says it is ok to stone homosexuals was not my point.

    Don't use the Bible then?
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    4. See point 1.
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    Strangely enough. I was in my local library yesterday and had a wee read of it while taking a study break. IIRC the front cover was black, with "The Koran" typed in gold leaf.
    I have a feeling you are going to tell me what it should say.
    While protecting the freedoms of those that wish to wear the burqa, they are allowing the enforcement that ninalucy pointed out to occur.
    It may be in an indirect manner but so what tbh.

    Well what I know is that the Qur'an discusses modesty in Sura 24. After dealing with what is modest for men, in Aya 31 it says the following. I'm not going to interpret it for you. I am merely going to provide the passage.
    And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.

    Some take this further than others, but that is their prerogative. I'd love if some of the Muslims on boards would interpret this.

    I don't think the Irish State should make laws limiting the practice of Islam. It is up to the Islamic clerics to preach to their flock, and scribes to interpret the Qur'an. It isn't up to Dermot Ahern, I wouldn't want Dermot Ahern to interpret the Bible either.


  • #131
    mardybumbum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭mardybumbum


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I prefer to take the view that people are capable of deciding what they want to wear.

    Of course people are capable are making that decision.
    Are you reasing the comments on this at all?
    Some women are not being afforded the opportunity of making this decision.
    And as for the women who do choose to wear it...
    They are concealing their faces from CCTV cameras, police officers, which should not be allowed.
    Im sure a case could be made that it is not safe to wear a burka while operating a vehicle.


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  • #132
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    mardybumbum wrote: »
    Of Are you reasing the comments on this at all?
    Some women are not being afforded the opportunity of making this decision.
    And as for the women who do choose to wear it...
    They are concealing their faces from CCTV cameras, police officers, which should not be allowed.
    Im sure a case could be made that it is not safe to wear a burka while operating a vehicle.

    This isn't a good enough reason to ban the burqa. The Gardaí are here to serve with issues such as these.


  • #133
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Its common knowledge that a lot of women are forced to wear these things. I dont care if its the minority or majority.
    One woman being forced to wear it is one too many.

    I have yet to see data that a "lot" of women in Western Europe are forced to wear burqas. I provided data earlier from France that a miniscule number of girls wore hijab - a much less extreme form of veiling. Please provide some data that wearing a burqa is a widespread problem, or stop making the claim.

    As a woman, I don't like the burqa, as I can't see it as anything but an expression of female oppression. But legislating against wearing a burqa on the premise that some undefined number of women are pressured to wear it is undemocratic. Under existing laws, these women have the right to wear whatever they want, and nobody - including their husbands - has the right to tell them otherwise. Whether or not they choose to avail themselves of the law is a completely different issue.

    That said, what the state can and should do is expand efforts to educate women about domestic abuse, which is widespread and relatively common in Muslim - and non-Muslim - households. The special problem that Muslim immigrant woman have, however, is that in a situation where they have few resources or allies outside of their extended families they have little or no chance of escaping their situation. However, given that so many states fail miserably at addressing domestic violence and violence against women in general within their native populations, I won't hold my breath.


  • #134
    mardybumbum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭mardybumbum


    Mike 1972 wrote: »

    what difference does that make ?

    It makes a huge difference. The argument being put forward is that women should be allowed to wear the burka because it is an expression of their religious beliefs.
    ITS NOT.
    Geddit?
    If they dont want to wear it then....er.... they shouldnt wear it. Its not really that hard is it ?

    Mike, you're not really following this are you?


  • #135
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    I think governments should mind their own business about what people wear. I find the idea behind a burka offensive but I thought I lived in Europe where you are free to have what religion you like and wear what you like.


  • #136
    ninalucy1985
    Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭ninalucy1985


    This is ridiculous,

    Burqas are worn by women who 'belong' to their men... before they are married they wear them as they 'belong' to their fathers until they are married off.

    Simple as.

    The reason a woman wears a burqa is because she belongs to a man be it her father or her husband.

    This is not right, no matter what way you look at it.

    If a woman was to 'willingly' wear one then she believes she does not belong to herself, she believes she is the property of a man.
    Thats not right !!!!!!
    No matter what way you look at it, i dont care


  • #137
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    mardybumbum wrote: »
    It makes a huge difference. The argument being put forward is that women should be allowed to wear the burka because it is an expression of their religious beliefs.
    ITS NOT.
    Geddit?



    Mike, you're not really following this are you?

    You should be allowed to wear what you like because you are an adult what business is it of yours what somebody else wears and what right do you have to interpret another persons religion or what it means to them?


  • #138
    ascanbe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭ascanbe


    tudlytops wrote: »
    Well if I travel to most Islamic countries as a women I am required to wear an Islamic veil regardless of my believes, so why shouldn't they have to take it off when coming to our countries?

    Seems bizarre to me that this post recieved so many thanks; what it is essentially expressing is the opinion that some Islamic countries have a perverse view of the world and the laws to match, so we should do as they do because we disagree with them. :confused:


  • #139
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,583 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Why should they, or we respect you by extension? Or your beliefs? This is a free society and I personally hope it stays that way.



    You'd have to prove that most do to warrant banning it.



    Don't use the Bible then?





    Well what I know is that the Qur'an discusses modesty in Sura 24. After dealing with what is modest for men, in Aya 31 it says the following. I'm not going to interpret it for you. I am merely going to provide the passage.



    Some take this further than others, but that is their prerogative. I'd love if some of the Muslims on boards would interpret this.

    I don't think the Irish State should make laws limiting the practice of Islam. It is up to the Islamic clerics to preach to their flock, and scribes to interpret the Qur'an. It isn't up to Dermot Ahern, I wouldn't want Dermot Ahern to interpret the Bible either.


    Im sorry but do you go around with your eyes closed...Did you see the planes hit the twin towers.. or were you in london when the bombs went off? ... would you be ok with stoning?.. or hands being chopped off?.. We have a right to protect this country and others if that means limiting the pratice of islam in this country then so be it.

    Yes most muslims would never hurt another person etc but the fanatics will go where ever islam is.


  • #140
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    Jakkass wrote: »
    They aren't free to express their faith as they see fit. Wearing a burqa is one of the means of doing so.
    You and I both know there has to be limits on the extent of freedom of expression. Considering some of the crazy things some people believe and preach, it'd be dangerous otherwise.


  • #141
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ninalucy1985 wrote: »
    Burqas are worn by women who 'belong' to their men... before they are married they wear them as they 'belong' to their fathers until they are married off.

    It's also up to these people to marry who they please. It's also up to people to decide whether or not they should have a traditional marriage. If you are married to your husband you are their wife, if you are married to your wife you are their husband.

    It's the view of Judaism and the view of Christianity that when people marry they become as one flesh and that the husband is the head of the family.
    ninalucy1985 wrote: »
    Simple as.

    The reason a woman wears a burqa is because she belongs to a man be it her father or her husband.

    This is not right, no matter what way you look at it.

    People are entitled to believe whatever they want about who they are, about what role their husband serves, and how to organise their marriage. The issue lies where things are being forced. I have yet to see any evidence.
    ninalucy1985 wrote: »
    If a woman was to 'willingly' wear one then she believes she does not belong to herself, she believes she is the property of a man.
    Thats not right !!!!!!
    No matter what way you look at it, i dont care

    I don't agree with the burqa either, as I am a Christian. However, I don't see why people can't if they want to.


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  • #142
    mardybumbum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭mardybumbum


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Why should they, or we respect you by extension? Or your beliefs? This is a free society and I personally hope it stays that way.

    Im not asking you to respect my beliefs. Question them. The same way I expect to be allowed to question others beliefs.
    Questioning Islam especially seems to be a big no no. I hope it stays a free society too but the respect shown to some religious organisations suggests otherwise.
    You'd have to prove that most do to warrant banning it.
    Ok, ill write up the survey and pop round to the local estates tomorrow.
    Do you believe that every woman that wears a burka has made that decision herself?
    Some take this further than others, but that is their prerogative.
    I have taken the quote I mentioned earlier too far. That is my perogative.


  • #143
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    twinytwo wrote: »
    were you in london when the bombs went off? ... would you be ok with stoning knee capping?.. or hands being chopped off? tarring and feathering.. We have a right to protect this country and others if that means limiting the pratice of islam Irish nationalism in this country then so be it.

    Yes most muslims Irish people would never hurt another person etc but the fanatics will go where ever islam is Irish people are.

    FYP ?
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    Are you reasing the comments on this at all?Some women are not being afforded the opportunity of making this decision.

    Are you deliberately missing the point here just for the sake of being evasive/trolling ?

    In France nobody can legally force an adult woman to wear a Burqa. If somebody is trying to force someone to wear a Burquh against their will then this would be covered by the laws against intimidation and/or domestic abuse (as applicable). Any woman in this situation can should go to the police and make a complaint. There is no reason for them to tolerate this kind of abuse.

    Banning people from doing something they freely choose to do in order to protect people who (based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence) are allowing themselves to be "forced" into it. Is not just nanny state idiocy it is bordering on fascism (especially when the real agenda has damn all to do with protecting women)
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    Of course people are capable are making that decision.
    Contradicting yourself again I see........................
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    Im sure a case could be made that it is not safe to wear a burka while operating a vehicle.
    Such a case would require evidence to support it and in any case is only marginally relevent since we are discussing the wearing of Burqua's in public -not specifically in vehicles.
    jam_mac_jam wrote: »
    I think governments should mind their own business about what people wear. I find the idea behind a burka offensive but I thought I lived in Europe where you are free to have what religion you like and wear what you like.

    Oh I totally agree.

    I also find tatooos and piercings offensive but what other people choose to wear is none of my, the governments or anyone elses business.
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    It makes a huge difference. The argument being put forward is that women should be allowed to wear the burka because it is an expression of their religious beliefs.
    ITS NOT.
    Geddit?
    I would niether presume to know nor could I care less why other people choose to dress in the way that they do. Like I said above its none of my business.
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    It Mike, you're not really following this are you?
    Errr I put it to you that you are the one who is not following this but whatever..............


  • #144
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Im sorry but do you go around with your eyes closed...Did you see the planes hit the twin towers.. or were you in london when the bombs went off? ... would you be ok with stoning?.. or hands being chopped off?.. We have a right to protect this country and others if that means limiting the pratice of islam in this country then so be it.

    Yes most muslims would never hurt another person etc but the fanatics will go where ever islam is.

    The law is the law. If people violate anothers rights, or carry out terror attacks etc they should be arrested.

    The Qur'an on the other hand is the Qur'an, if people do not adhere to it, and sin according to Islam, it is up for Imams to rebuke people according to Islam.


  • #145
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    mardybumbum wrote: »
    Im not asking you to respect my beliefs. Question them. The same way I expect to be allowed to question others beliefs.
    Questioning Islam especially seems to be a big no no. I hope it stays a free society too but the respect shown to some religious organisations suggests otherwise.

    Really? I'm critical of Islam, but I don't believe that the Government has any right to make any form of religious practice illegal.

    Why do you ask? Precisely, because we should live in a free society, and secondly, I know that when religious rights are restricted, I'm probably going to be next.

    You need to ask yourself, would I like this if it happened to me?
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    Ok, ill write up the survey and pop round to the local estates tomorrow.
    Do you believe that every woman that wears a burka has made that decision herself?

    It doesn't matter what people believe. All that matters is the facts.
    mardybumbum wrote: »
    I have taken the quote I mentioned earlier too far. That is my perogative.

    All I'm saying is, the Qur'an is to be interpreted freely, and that Dermot Ahern has no authority in limiting free interpretation of the Qur'an any more than he has the right to limit interpretation of any other text.
    Nevore wrote: »
    You and I both know there has to be limits on the extent of freedom of expression. Considering some of the crazy things some people believe and preach, it'd be dangerous otherwise.

    I doubt this more and more on a daily basis. A lot of the time the limits are placed by those who wish not to be offended.


  • #146
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,583 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The law is the law. If people violate anothers rights, or carry out terror attacks etc they should be arrested.

    The Qur'an on the other hand is the Qur'an, if people do not adhere to it, and sin according to Islam, it is up for Imams to rebuke people according to Islam.

    Yes but as we all know this is not the case..the larger muslim community could stamp out extremist part of their religion if they wanted to but they dont


  • #147
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    The Jewish community could stamp out the ultra-Orthodox extremists in Israel. The list goes on and on, but ultimately this has nothing to do with the burqa any more. The real reasons are starting to come out.


  • #148
    mardybumbum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭mardybumbum


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    There is no reason for them to tolerate this kind of abuse.

    Many women are afraid to speak up.


    Contradicting yourself again I see........................

    Am I?
    I said everybody is capable of deciding what they want to wear.
    Sometimes this is not the same as what they're forced to wear.

    Such a case would require evidence to support it and in any case is only marginally relevent since we are discussing the wearing of Burqua's in public -not specifically in vehicles.

    Well in the real world people drive vehicles so it has its place in this discussion. You are dead right about the required evidence. Its just an example that came to mind.

    The word "capable" is not the same as "free"


  • #149
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Really? I'm critical of Islam, but I don't believe that the Government has any right to make any form of religious practice illegal.
    I'm going to be charitable and presume that you actually mean that "I don't believe that the Government has any right to make any form of religious practice that I happen to find non-repugnant, illegal." since I'd like to think that you don't support the actions of Ugandan witchdoctors.
    http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=110388

    So, that's one religious practise we can all agree on banning surely.

    So, the blanket statement that all religious expression is valid can be thrown out. Once that's taken care of we can argue over the grey area.


  • #150
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Nevore wrote: »
    I'm going to be charitable and presume that you actually mean that "I don't believe that the Government has any right to make any form of religious practice that I happen to find non-repugnant, illegal." since I'd like to think that you don't support the actions of Ugandan witchdoctors.
    http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=110388

    I've made clear that my category is as far as it does not violate the rights and freedoms of others.

    We're dealing with the burqa though, and it seems that a lot of people have outside agendas.


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  • #151
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Yes but as we all know this is not the case..the larger muslim Irish community could stamp out extremist part of their religion community if they wanted to but they dont

    FYP ?


This discussion has been closed.
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