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WPP1 / WPP2
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You do realise that in 6 months time when you post here how you are losing your job due to a lower paid employee being promoted that this thread is going to be quoted?
In this current climate, no ones job is safe no matter what level they are at or how indispensable they consider themselves, because at some point you were trained up to your current level so someone else can be as well and out you go.
As ive said in other threads and been banned for saying it due over-sensitive mods. If you are good enough at your job and you have made sure that you are employable elsewhere should anything go wrong, you will have no problem getting a new job, even if you had to move abroad. So im not really worried about my own job at all.
Im more concerned about the other people who are not as employable or those with families, mortgages etc who cant move to where there are jobs and will just end up working for free somewhere else in the future after being pushed out and being on the dole.
What i was pointing out here is that there was a management meeting where the plans were spelled out to us. We are to help with this scheme and cannot tell the current employees what the plan is. And im positive that this plan is going on in many companies.
There should have been a cap of about 1 per 10 existing employees, on the number of FAS slaves a company can take. Also the employers should be made pay their dole money at least, not the tax payer. And once they take on slaves once, they should not be allowed to do it again.0 -
Would it be possible to form a new company staffed entirely by the director + unpaid wpp participants? E.g. 1 for payroll, 1 for marketing, 1 for sales, 1 for IT, etc and it would be a great way for each person to gain experience0
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So why bother posting about this scheme at all? Nothing to do with you.Why would I bother. They arent threatening my job or pay rate
How could Fás possibly police it? You haven't suggested any way they could come close to it. How is current legislation like minimum wage laws and unfair dismissals policed? Primarily through reportingCommon sense should prevail in the organizers of the WPP, not a reliance on people reporting abuse.
Which was exactly my point. The processes for redundancies and protection for employees is identical regardless of whether the incoming employees are WPP participants or not. The WPP has nothing to do with it.If a company wants to replace staff with lower paid workers its not as easy as you make out. There is a cost to change out one employee for another.
Even though they already do in numerous professions like law or media. Regardless, the point of yours that I was responding to was that they will work for near nothing i.e. minimum wage, which is a lot less than someone with experienceAnd no, people wont work for free for 9 months whether this scheme exists or not.
So you admit you don't actually know the details of the programme? From the Scheme rules:There should have been a cap of about 1 per 10 existing employees, on the number of FAS slaves a company can take. Also the employers should be made pay their dole money at least, not the tax payer. And once they take on slaves once, they should not be allowed to do it again.Number of Employees Number of WPP Placements 1-10 employees 1 Place 11-20 employees 2 Places 21-30 employees 3 Places 30 + employees 10% of their workforce to a maximum of 25 places whichever is the smallerExactly the cap you think should be in place
No, partly because of the caps above, but also, how do you gain experience when there's only 1 experienced person in the company?Would it be possible to form a new company staffed entirely by the director + unpaid wpp participants? E.g. 1 for payroll, 1 for marketing, 1 for sales, 1 for IT, etc and it would be a great way for each person to gain experienceBoardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, dark mode, and more). Now available through your browser's extension store.
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Check out the Media and Research forum in relation to the WPP topic.0
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Would it be possible to form a new company staffed entirely by the director + unpaid wpp participants? E.g. 1 for payroll, 1 for marketing, 1 for sales, 1 for IT, etc and it would be a great way for each person to gain experience
No. Fas do vet potential WPP employers you know.
And who exactly would the WPP people gain experience from if they were the only ones in the company?0 -
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We have 31 employees in our company and 6 WPP workers now. So somebody is not keeping an eye on the rules.0
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The most worrying aspect of the WPP scheme is that it will encourage companies (even ones that are not participating on the WPP scheme) to take on workers without payment or for less then the minimum wage.
Lots of companies are now suddenly seeking graduates with little or no experience to come into jobs to pretty much get trained up for a few months and in some cases replace higher paid workers. People will argue that FAS will stop this from happening but the WPP scheme is still in it's infancy and I doubt anyone has been on the scheme long enough to fulfil their 6/9 month contacts to see what transpires. Will they be offered a permanent role or revert back to sitting on their hands & collecting their social welfare benefit each week?
I work in IT and a few years ago opportunities like this were few and far between (a graduate stepping directly into an Administrator role) and most people had to start at the very bottom of the ladder and put a few years of hard graft in before we stepped up the ladder. Yes, there was plenty of jobs back then so graduates could easily get an entry level Technical Support type role but it was rare that companies would bring people in to "learn the ropes" then let them go..........unless of course profits were way down and they had a hidden agenda as the case might be here?
Sorry if that turned into a rant, I'm just very disillusioned with the employment prospects in this country right now and all of this "work for free" malarkey is really starting to get on my nerves.0 -
But the law has not changed in any way. Non-salaried internships were common in Ireland before the WPP came into existence (albeit more in some industries more than others). Do a google search for "internship ireland" and you'll find hundreds of examples of companies and organisations offering unpaid positions, and I don't think they all sprung up since the WPP started.The most worrying aspect of the WPP scheme is that it will encourage companies (even ones that are not participating on the WPP scheme) to take on workers without payment or for less then the minimum wage.
The higher paid workers can't just be replaced. They're still protected by the same employee legislation, regardless of the source of the employees. I'm not saying that Fás will stop it from happening, I'm saying the displaced employees should be stopping it, the same way it would be entirely up to them regardless of whether the WPP existed or not.Lots of companies are now suddenly seeking graduates with little or no experience to come into jobs to pretty much get trained up for a few months and in some cases replace higher paid workers. People will argue that FAS will stop this from happening but the WPP scheme is still in it's infancy and I doubt anyone has been on the scheme long enough to fulfil their 6/9 month contacts to see what transpires. Will they be offered a permanent role or revert back to sitting on their hands & collecting their social welfare benefit each week?
The participant may be offered a permanent position, but from the point of view of the law, they would be considered a new employee at the time of offering, not from when they started the WPP. If they are not offered a permanent position, they don't go back on social welfare, they never left it. They just stop showing up at the company. Participants in the WPP are not registered as employees of the company.
That's a bit of an over-statement, they specifically state that it's an internship and that "the candidate will receive the help and support from our IT Department that would be required to help them achieve the desired experience as part of their practical training". Regardless, is it in any way surprising that companies are looking to cost-cut in a recession? In good times, they might have hired an administrator with 10 years under his belt for an excellent salary. Now they're willing to take a chance on someone completely unproven that will need training, in order to save money.I work in IT and a few years ago opportunities like this were few and far between (a graduate stepping directly into an Administrator role) and most people had to start at the very bottom of the ladder and put a few years of hard graft in before we stepped up the ladder. Yes, there was plenty of jobs back then so graduates could easily get an entry level Technical Support type role but it was rare that companies would bring people in to "learn the ropes" then let them go..........unless of course profits were way down and they had a hidden agenda as the case might be here?Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, dark mode, and more). Now available through your browser's extension store.
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When an individual WPP comes to an end, is a company then fully entitled to hire another WPP in place of the previous participant?0
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I believe so, although Fás may disagree. It's unlikely to come up, since the WPP only has a limited amount of places, and the placements last 9 months. Whether it'll be expanded I don't know.When an individual WPP comes to an end, is a company then fully entitled to hire another WPP in place of the previous participant?
Also, it would be incredibly inefficient for companies to do this, since we are talking about people with no practical experience. The first month or more of every placement would be taken up with training, and how many companies can afford to provide the training, and have a section of their work dormant for a month?Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, dark mode, and more). Now available through your browser's extension store.
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When an individual WPP comes to an end, is a company then fully entitled to hire another WPP in place of the previous participant?
Yeah they must be, a position i applied for was already taken by the time i applied. The company said if i was still interested i could take up the second position when it becomes available like in 9months time!! Haha0 -
But the law has not changed in any way. Non-salaried internships were common in Ireland before the WPP came into existence (albeit more in some industries more than others). Do a google search for "internship ireland" and you'll find hundreds of examples of companies and organisations offering unpaid positions, and I don't think they all sprung up since the WPP started.
I'm not talking about college internships I was focusing more on the sudden increase of non-paying roles, that are springing up everywhere now, that are specifically looking for experienced people that are willing to work for nothing. Okay I understand that the recession is just as tough on employers as it is on employees but that doesn't make exploitation expectable.The higher paid workers can't just be replaced. They're still protected by the same employee legislation, regardless of the source of the employees. I'm not saying that Fás will stop it from happening, I'm saying the displaced employees should be stopping it, the same way it would be entirely up to them regardless of whether the WPP existed or not.
Of course higher paid workers can be replaced, it's happening all of the time. Thousands of workers throughout Ireland have been handed paycuts and received reduced working hours in the last 18 months plus I don't think that the record number of complaints to the Rights Commissioner over varies breaches in employment legislation is an uncanny coincidence. I personally know a number of people who are awaiting for their employment tribunal case to be heard because of unfair/constructive dismissals or non-payment of wages, and where told that they could be waiting upto 12 months for their case to be even heard.
Also how many people do you know that have completed WPP schemes? Do you actually believe that in the current climate employers are not trying to cut every possibly corner in any way they can? What is to stop them phasing out current employees (with paycuts & reduced working hours) and replacing them with WPP participants? FAS will turn a blind eye as usual and organisations such as NERA can only advise people so the Rights Commissioner is the only avenue available (outside of the unions) and they are stretched to their limits.The participant may be offered a permanent position, but from the point of view of the law, they would be considered a new employee at the time of offering, not from when they started the WPP. If they are not offered a permanent position, they don't go back on social welfare, they never left it. They just stop showing up at the company. Participants in the WPP are not registered as employees of the company.That's a bit of an over-statement, they specifically state that it's an internship and that "the candidate will receive the help and support from our IT Department that would be required to help them achieve the desired experience as part of their practical training". Regardless, is it in any way surprising that companies are looking to cost-cut in a recession? In good times, they might have hired an administrator with 10 years under his belt for an excellent salary. Now they're willing to take a chance on someone completely unproven that will need training, in order to save money.
Well then what is the point of the WPP scheme? It seems to be totally setup for the companies gain. They get an employee for 6 to 9 months at the tax payers expense............but what happens after the WPP employees contract expires? They will most likely be back in a stagnant jobs market with less then a years experience competing for the same job as someone with 5 times the experience that they have recently gained. Or they could, for example, get offered a one year contract with the company that they were on work experience with, for minimum wage, probably at the expense of a higher paid worker who's wages had become a liability in light of the global economic crisis.0 -
I never mentioned college internships. Non-paying roles are typically referred to as internships or work experience. Where are these companies looking for experienced people to work for nothing? What would be the point of an experienced person going into one of these roles? The aim of these schemes is to give a person practical experience, because it's very difficult to get a job when you don't have any, especially in the current jobs market (because there's so many experienced people looking for work). The difference between someone with 7 years experience and 8 years experience is negligible. The difference between someone with no experience and 9 months experience is hugeI'm not talking about college internships I was focusing more on the sudden increase of non-paying roles, that are springing up everywhere now, that are specifically looking for experienced people that are willing to work for nothing. Okay I understand that the recession is just as tough on employers as it is on employees but that doesn't make exploitation expectable.
I agree. That's a problem. Absolutely no relevance to this thread thoughOf course higher paid workers can be replaced, it's happening all of the time. Thousands of workers throughout Ireland have been handed paycuts and received reduced working hours in the last 18 months plus I don't think that the record number of complaints to the Rights Commissioner over varies breaches in employment legislation is an uncanny coincidence. I personally know a number of people who are awaiting for their employment tribunal case to be heard because of unfair/constructive dismissals or non-payment of wages, and where told that they could be waiting upto 12 months for their case to be even heard.
I know no-one who has completed the WPP, because it's a minimum of 6 months in length, and it's less than 6 months since it started. What's to stop companies just firing people outright and bringing in cheaper workers? If there's a logjam in the courts, that's a problem, but again, nothing to do with this thread, Fás or the WPP.Also how many people do you know that have completed WPP schemes? Do you actually believe that in the current climate employers are not trying to cut every possibly corner in any way they can? What is to stop them phasing out current employees (with paycuts & reduced working hours) and replacing them with WPP participants? FAS will turn a blind eye as usual and organisations such as NERA can only advise people so the Rights Commissioner is the only avenue available (outside of the unions) and they are stretched to their limits.
Or they could be back in a stagnant job market with less than a year's experience competing for the same job as someone with no experience. From an employee's perspective, doing the WPP shows employers you want to work. You gain skills while doing it, and you show you don't want to sit around doing nothing. It also gives you a chance to impress the employer who took you on for the scheme over time, rather than a 30-minute interview. Of course you're not guaranteed a job at the end of the scheme, but it makes you more employable.Well then what is the point of the WPP scheme? It seems to be totally setup for the companies gain. They get an employee for 6 to 9 months at the tax payers expense............but what happens after the WPP employees contract expires? They will most likely be back in a stagnant jobs market with less then a years experience competing for the same job as someone with 5 times the experience that they have recently gained.
Also, how is it at the tax-payer's expense? We're talking about unemployed people here, they get the same whether they're on the WPP or not. The only reason it would be more expensive to the tax-payer is if that person was likely to get a job in the next 9 months, which in the current market is unlikely
And we're back to the legality of replacing one worker with another. Nothing to do with this threadOr they could, for example, get offered a one year contract with the company that they were on work experience with, for minimum wage, probably at the expense of a higher paid worker who's wages had become a liability in light of the global economic crisis.Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, dark mode, and more). Now available through your browser's extension store.
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Jobs for shop workers and laundry operatives etc.
Takes 2 weeks to train. I know ive worked in both in the past.
8.5 months of free work for the slave owner.
This scheme is just a joke. Wait until the international press get this one.
Remember this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAMA_Turkish_Construction_Company
I really like the General Operative (WPP2) one below. Free labourer, when there are thousands of labourers on the dole who would be looking for a job. Now they are undercut by someone who will work for free. What a kick in the teeth for them. Paying tax all these years only for that tax to be used to put them out of work.
Have a look at these Examples:
Laundry Operative (WPP2)
Area of Activity: Operational Department - washing machines; rollers; dryers; pressers; dealing with the public; administration; collections and deliveries. Elements of Experience: loading and unloading machines, collection and deliveries; how to use pressers in a safe way; how to use dryers in a safe way; how to use rollers in a safe way; chemicals used in laundrette; health and safety in the work place. Person Specification: most people with the proper training or supervision could do this job. Common sense and willing to learn is what is needed. Collection - delivery working with drive. (Driving licence not necessary).
General Operative (WPP2)
Area of Activity: labouring to bricklayers. Elements of Experience: general knowledge of the construction of homes. Person Specification: must have good knowledge of the English language and have an interest in construction.
Waiting Staff - WPP2
Area of activity: Front of house waiting staff. Elements of experience offered: Food and beverage service; customer service; cash handling and HACCP standards maintenance. Person specification: Someone with a customer focused attitude who performs well under pressure, with training in hospitality and needs experience to improve their long term employment prospects. Pleasant, honest and hardworking.
Windscreen Technican (B Licence) - WPP2
Area of activity: Windscreen repairs. Based in Mullingar and involves travel in Cavan/Longford area. Elements of experience offered: Full training provided in windscreen replacement and repairs. Person specification: Full clean B drivers licence required.
Food & Beverage Assistant (WPP2)
Areas of Activity: The placement will be offered in both restaurant and bar, working between the two departments. Elements of Experience: People skills, bar experience, experience in working in a restaurant/bar. After 9 months candidate would be able to know different wines etc, up-sell at every opportunity, use micros till system that hotel uses. Person Specification:Good interpersonal skills, enjoy working as part of a team, enjoy working with the public.
Trainee Bar Person (WPP2)
Areas of Activity: in the bar. Elements of Experience: All areas of Bar Service, including stock sheets and control, cash sheets, customer service. Person Specification: Someone who would like to gain waiting experience.
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Raekwon linked to this. They want:I never mentioned college internships. Non-paying roles are typically referred to as internships or work experience. Where are these companies looking for experienced people to work for nothing? What would be the point of an experienced person going into one of these roles?
Internal user support
Day to day systems, servers and network administration.
Good knowledge of windows 2003 and Linux RedHat
Good knowledge of TCP/IP infrastructure
You get that with experience. Typically, someone "starting" with that sort of experience would be starting off with €25k or so.
Although it doesn't cost the tax payer anything, the company is profiting from the availability of the free staff, who is being paid by the tax-payer.Also, how is it at the tax-payer's expense? We're talking about unemployed people here, they get the same whether they're on the WPP or not.0 -
Although it doesn't cost the tax payer anything, the company is profiting from the availability of the free staff, who is being paid by the tax-payer.
Actually it is costing the tax payer. They tax payer is paying for the administration of this farce. Also someone who needs an employee like the labourer in my post above, would have to pay at least minimum wage for them, getting them off the dole and saving the tax payer money. But instead they are getting the labourer for free while the tax payer pays them.
I dont know why 28064212 is even trying to defend this slave scheme, because its totally indefensible. Employers are getting free slaves, and people who need those paying jobs and are capable of doing them are not getting them. It wont be long until we are all asked to work for free for the first 9 months of a job.0 -
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i have to agree with guell on this i have reported two companies to FAS about this and yet one of the companies has managed to get another advert for the scheme onto the FAS website.
looks like i will be giving Fas a call in the morning:mad: even the fas officers in the local office know about this scheme been milked by certain employers.
take my industry for instance(transport)there are employers paying their drivers less than the min wage per hour, just say they get 80/100e a day they could work anything from12-15hrs a day for that which does not include tax&prsi deductions.
this is just one of the adverts at the moment where the employer is looking for free labour
HGV Driver/Yardperson - WPP2
: Description:
Area of activity: Transport, haulage and warehousing. Elements of experience offered: Artic driving, shunting trailers and delivering loads and yard work Person specification: Full clean Artic licence (EC), forklift licence a benefit, needs to be over 25 years or age for insurance purposes with the ability to work on their own initiative. Neat appearance with good people and telephone skills.0 -
I never mentioned college internships. Non-paying roles are typically referred to as internships or work experience. Where are these companies looking for experienced people to work for nothing? What would be the point of an experienced person going into one of these roles? The aim of these schemes is to give a person practical experience, because it's very difficult to get a job when you don't have any, especially in the current jobs market (because there's so many experienced people looking for work). The difference between someone with 7 years experience and 8 years experience is negligible. The difference between someone with no experience and 9 months experience is huge
"Where are these companies looking for experienced people to work for nothing?" Have you not seen all of the examples that people have posted on this thread? Plus having 9 months experience in a saturated labour market with rising unemployment means absolutely nothing. People with good degrees and with years of experience are finding it difficult to find work right now so what makes you think having 9 months of slave labour on a CV will suddenly advance somebody's job prospects? Not in this climate and that is a major issue people have with the WPP scheme, FAS should be trying to help create full time jobs for people to get off the dole and contribute to the economy instead of giving companies leg-ups and letting tax payers pay for them to employee staff.I agree. That's a problem. Absolutely no relevance to this thread though
Well if it has absolutely no relevance to this thread then why did you make a point about it in your last post?I know no-one who has completed the WPP, because it's a minimum of 6 months in length, and it's less than 6 months since it started. What's to stop companies just firing people outright and bringing in cheaper workers? If there's a logjam in the courts, that's a problem, but again, nothing to do with this thread, Fás or the WPP.
That was the point I already made. I already said that nobody knows a person that has completed a WPP scheme because it is in it's infancy. Anyway companies are firing people outright and replacing them with cheaper works (Irish Ferries?) but the WPP could be seen as a perfectly legit way of replacing staff. Think about it, you get an employee who is desperate to work for nothing, train them up and give them on the job experience for 9 months, then if they are deemed good enough you can offer them a full time position for the bare minimum (which they will obviously take if they were willing to work for no money). The catch is, what about the other employees on the payroll that are on the average industrial wage? The company must be money concious if they applied for the WPP in the first place, so what's to say the WPP wasn't hire to replace a current member of staff? Seems logical to me.......and that is problem. So simply dismissing that argument and saying it has no place in this thread is either you being very naive or very shrude because it has a great bearing on this subject matter whether you want to admit it or not.Or they could be back in a stagnant job market with less than a year's experience competing for the same job as someone with no experience. From an employee's perspective, doing the WPP shows employers you want to work. You gain skills while doing it, and you show you don't want to sit around doing nothing. It also gives you a chance to impress the employer who took you on for the scheme over time, rather than a 30-minute interview. Of course you're not guaranteed a job at the end of the scheme, but it makes you more employable.
From an employers perspective, doing a WPP shows desperation, plain and simple.....and in the current climate employers are revelling in that fact because at the end of the day it's all about profits and if you can hire people for little or nothing you are making a profit.....it's simple economics, but is it ethical? NO! Should it be encouraged by a government employment authority? HELL NO!
And on your point about being more employable after participating in a WPP scheme.........what about the thousands of unemployed people who take up voluntary charity work or re-training themselves (via night/online courses) to improve there skillset and make themselves more employable, now that would empresses an employeer and shows more initiative then lining some tight-fisted employers pockets.Also, how is it at the tax-payer's expense? We're talking about unemployed people here, they get the same whether they're on the WPP or not. The only reason it would be more expensive to the tax-payer is if that person was likely to get a job in the next 9 months, which in the current market is unlikely
"Also, how is it at the tax-payer's expense?" You do know that people who participate in WPP schemes get to keep their social welfare benefits which is paid to them by the taxpayer? And why would it be more expensive to the tax-payer if they got full-time employment in the next 9 months? Surely they would be contributing to tax instead of benefiting from it if that was the case.And we're back to the legality of replacing one worker with another. Nothing to do with this thread
Simply dismissing this argument does not make it anymore apparent then it already is. Can you honestly say that this time next year no WPP employees will have replaced a higher paid worker? You'd be a brave man to bet against it!0 -
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Guell72...spot on, you have showed the joke of a scheme this is. It's obvious employers will use it (in the case of IT) to train new employees cheap and then hire them on short-term low paid contracts if they deem useful at the end of the 9 months. This is also a way of getting around their difficulties in reducing current staff's pay, which always faces a danger of lawsuit.
The negative effects are that the employee's wages are paid by the state, instead of the employee being paid a minimum wage from the company. This costs tax payers money in social welfare benefits and any taxes and contribution on their social welfare stamps. That it is being used for general operative jobs is beyond ridiculous, Mary Coughlan resign now and FAS should be abolished!0 -
i was in contact with FAS today about these wpp appearing on the website again,the reply i got was dont apply for the jobs and surely someone that has no experience will more than likely take the job to get experience.
when i explained that these companies are taking advantage of people the person in fas did'nt want to know0 -
Oh, please.28064212 wrote:I agree. That's a problem. Absolutely no relevance to this thread though
On this thread, you've repeatedly made the claim that workers treated wrongly have recourse to law.
Raekwon points out that this is all well and good in theory, but there are significant practical barriers to workers enforcing their legal rights.
You can hardly dimiss that observation as irrelevant, either to the thread in general or your comments in particular.
Ditto.28064212 wrote:If there's a logjam in the courts, that's a problem, but again, nothing to do with this thread, Fás or the WPP.
Ditto.28064212 wrote:And we're back to the legality of replacing one worker with another. Nothing to do with this thread0 -
I heard George Hook on the radio today talking about reducing the minimum wage. No need. The minimum wage is now zero to an employer. Or €5 or less per hour to the tax payer and the employee.0
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The international press? You're having a laugh, yeah? Unpaid internships are common in many countries, they've only relatively recently come to Ireland. What does GAMA have to do with anything?Jobs for shop workers and laundry operatives etc.
Takes 2 weeks to train. I know ive worked in both in the past.
8.5 months of free work for the slave owner.
This scheme is just a joke. Wait until the international press get this one.
Remember this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAMA_Turkish_Construction_Company
I would have had at least a grounding of most of those when I graduated, except for the internal user support. Regardless, they specifically state in the ad that they are looking for someone who wants to "put your college skills into practice for a few months"Raekwon linked to this. They want:
Internal user support
Day to day systems, servers and network administration.
Good knowledge of windows 2003 and Linux RedHat
Good knowledge of TCP/IP infrastructure
You get that with experience. Typically, someone "starting" with that sort of experience would be starting off with €25k or so.
The administration point is true, the tax payer is paying for it. The second point is making the massive assumption that the company in question would have hired someone if the WPP wasn't there. In fact, it's infinitely more likely that they either would have gotten their current employees to cover the tasks, or they would have cut costs further in other areas with pay-cuts and redundancies.Actually it is costing the tax payer. They tax payer is paying for the administration of this farce. Also someone who needs an employee like the labourer in my post above, would have to pay at least minimum wage for them, getting them off the dole and saving the tax payer money. But instead they are getting the labourer for free while the tax payer pays them.
And they have to train that employee up, who then gets experience. Are people not getting the point of this scheme? The employer has to train the employee, they get experience which is worth more than a salary to them. If the experience isn't worth more than a salary to them, they don't take the position, or they leave it once they're in it, since they have absolutely nothing to lose by doing so.donkey balls wrote: »i have to agree with guell on this i have reported two companies to FAS about this and yet one of the companies has managed to get another advert for the scheme onto the FAS website.
looks like i will be giving Fas a call in the morning:mad: even the fas officers in the local office know about this scheme been milked by certain employers.
take my industry for instance(transport)there are employers paying their drivers less than the min wage per hour, just say they get 80/100e a day they could work anything from12-15hrs a day for that which does not include tax&prsi deductions.
this is just one of the adverts at the moment where the employer is looking for free labour
HGV Driver/Yardperson - WPP2
: Description:
Area of activity: Transport, haulage and warehousing. Elements of experience offered: Artic driving, shunting trailers and delivering loads and yard work Person specification: Full clean Artic licence (EC), forklift licence a benefit, needs to be over 25 years or age for insurance purposes with the ability to work on their own initiative. Neat appearance with good people and telephone skills.
Before my last post, there were exactly two examples posted, one to a link which doesn't work, and a personal assistant's position which offered experience in "administration, IT, data entry, document formatting, telephone skills, project/time client event management; social and electronic marketing, CRM, marketing, PR."
"Where are these companies looking for experienced people to work for nothing?" Have you not seen all of the examples that people have posted on this thread?
You're either crazy or it's been a long time since you've went job-hunting if you think it means nothing. Granted it means more in some industries than in others, but in many professions the difference between hiring a graduate and hiring someone with 9 months experience and references is hugePlus having 9 months experience in a saturated labour market with rising unemployment means absolutely nothing. People with good degrees and with years of experience are finding it difficult to find work right now so what makes you think having 9 months of slave labour on a CV will suddenly advance somebody's job prospects?
I said that higher paid workers can't just be replaced with WPP workers, because of employee legislation (relevant). You said that it was happening, and courts weren't getting around to sorting it out. That's not relevantWell if it has absolutely no relevance to this thread then why did you make a point about it in your last post?
And robbing a bank could be seen as a perfectly legit way of solving my money problems. That doesn't make it so. It is against the law. And I didn't simply dismiss your argument, so there's no need to take offence. I considered it and realised that it is irrelevant, and pointed out reasons why.That was the point I already made. I already said that nobody knows a person that has completed a WPP scheme because it is in it's infancy. Anyway companies are firing people outright and replacing them with cheaper works (Irish Ferries?) but the WPP could be seen as a perfectly legit way of replacing staff.
I couldn't disagree more. If I'm a recruiter with two CVs in front of me, one who went on a work placement scheme to upskill and gain experience, the other who drew the dole for 9 months because they couldn't get a job, I sure as hell know who I'm going to hire.From an employers perspective, doing a WPP shows desperation, plain and simple
Actually, I'm doing an online course at the moment so I can add an extra qualification to my CV. Won't be anything near as effective as being able to say I have 9 months on-the-job experience, but it's something extra.And on your point about being more employable after participating in a WPP scheme.........what about the thousands of unemployed people who take up voluntary charity work or re-training themselves (via night/online courses) to improve there skillset and make themselves more employable
Voluntary charity work isn't really an option. First of all, you're no longer eligible for job-seeker's allowance if you're volunteering, which I can't afford. Secondly the chances of getting something that would actually make me more employable in my industry are tiny. I really don't want to carry around a bucket and ask for people's bank details, and I don't think that if I did it I would be any more employable
You're contradicting yourself now. You're saying that the people doing these placements won't gain anything from the 9 months experience, since there's so many other much more experienced people out there, but that they're likely to get a job in the next 9 months? I feel pretty confident saying that a majority of the people on the WPP would not have got jobs in those 9 months. Also, by working, they're contributing to a companies profitability, and therefore, indirectly, to the tax-payer. Not to mention the fact that people can still apply for jobs while on the WPP, and can leave at any time if they find one.You do know that people who participate in WPP schemes get to keep their social welfare benefits which is paid to them by the taxpayer? And why would it be more expensive to the tax-payer if they got full-time employment in the next 9 months? Surely they would be contributing to tax instead of benefiting from it if that was the case.
I'll take that bet. If you'll take a bet that there won't be another murder between now and then. I don't know how many times I'll have to repeat myself, but it is illegal.Can you honestly say that this time next year no WPP employees will have replaced a higher paid worker? You'd be a brave man to bet against it!
They face the exact same danger of a lawsuit either wayGuell72...spot on, you have showed the joke of a scheme this is. It's obvious employers will use it (in the case of IT) to train new employees cheap and then hire them on short-term low paid contracts if they deem useful at the end of the 9 months. This is also a way of getting around their difficulties in reducing current staff's pay, which always faces a danger of lawsuit.
That's disappointing, and bad form on Fás' part. I'd recommend contacting someone higher up the chain, if you've the time and inclination.donkey balls wrote: »i was in contact with FAS today about these wpp appearing on the website again,the reply i got was dont apply for the jobs and surely someone that has no experience will more than likely take the job to get experience.
when i explained that these companies are taking advantage of people the person in fas did'nt want to know
However, for the jobs that are looking for experienced people, who exactly is applying for them? I know that if I had even 3 or 4 years experience under my belt, I wouldn't touch this scheme with a barge-pole. Why would someone with that amount of experience apply, they'll get almost nothing out of it
What are these barriers? He hasn't stated what they are, other than the fact that the courts are packed at the moment. What does that have to do with the WPP?Oh, please.
On this thread, you've repeatedly made the claim that workers treated wrongly have recourse to law.
Raekwon points out that this is all well and good in theory, but there are significant practical barriers to workers enforcing their legal rights.
You can hardly dimiss that observation as irrelevant, either to the thread in general or your comments in particular.
Or maybe, just maybe, I'm someone who graduated with a first-class honours degree at the wrong time. Someone who applied for about 50 jobs, went for a dozen interviews and got sick of being told (all actual quotes by the way):Simple. He is either works for FAS or is an employer hiring (or looking to hire) WPP workers.- "We're going to go for someone with more experience"
- "Come back to us when you've gotten more experience"
- "We don't feel that you really have enough experience for this position" (Incidentally, most of these were jobs advertised as 0-6 months experience required. The ones that required more don't even post out replies to CVs that don't meet it)
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i was in contact with FAS today about these wpp appearing on the website again,the reply i got was dont apply for the jobs and surely someone that has no experience will more than likely take the job to get experience.
when i explained that these companies are taking advantage of people the person in fas did'nt want to know
Fair play to you, I think the scheme is being openly abused. Here are a few WWP1 examples I saw today:
_______
Help Desk Technician (WWP1)
Area of activity: Work placement is in the IT Help Desk working as a help desk technician. Elements of experience: At the end of the 6 month placement the participant will be able to: Manage and maintain several types of sub-networks. Be able to work in a team environment. Person Specification: Skills required: Installing and configuring windows systems; installing and configuring Linux/Unix systems; installing and configuring firewall systems (Sonic wall, Zywall, Firebox, Smoothwall). Good knowledge of Symantec backup software (backup Exec, BE system recovery). Working knowledge of remote monitoring software (RMS) (Level platforms, Hound-Dog). Good at maintaining and managing small to medium business networks. Knowledge of SAP, Ulysses and Televantage software. Hardware maintenance, trouble shooting diagnostics and repair. Ability to work in team environment. Ability to complete tasks within agreed time frames. CompTIA A+ and Network+ certified. Novell Netware Certified.
Sales Executive (WWP1)
Description:
Area of Activity: The role will include working as part of the mobile advertising and publishing sales team. The participant will initially support the existing sales team but should be capable of progressing to a full sales role. Elements of Experience: The participant will gain experience in the new and rapidly developing areas of mobile publishing, messaging and marketing. Person Specification: We would like the participant to have experience in Media or Software Service sales and have an interest in adapting his/her skills to mobile internet. Preferably have a relevant qualification in the Digital area. Excellent communication and interpersonal skills. Ability to work in a dynamic environment. More information received and available with the application form.
Maintenance Support Person (WWP1)
Area of Activity: Maintenance Department. Maintaining, repairing and problem solving M.P. products. Dealing with customers. Elements of Experience: Prepping, repairing, maintaining Money Point products. Updating and maintaining computer/manual systems. Working to ISO standards and maintaining same. Dealing with customers. Dealing with incoming/dispatching goods by courier. Person Specification: Qualification in Electro Mechanical with some work experience. Excellent interpersonal/communication skills. Computer literate. Fluent English. Can do attitude.
Office Administrator (WWP1)
Area of Activity: Finance/Shipping. Processing of all shipping documentation and credit control/claims administration. Elements of Experience: Exposure to administration in a major Irish organisation, gaining valuable experience in both shipping and finance departments. Person Specification: Someone highly motivated, ability to work in a team environment, high standard of work with minimum supervision.
Accounts Technician (WWP1)
Description:
Areas of Activity: Finance Department Elements of Experience: Creditor control, bank reconciliation, revenue recognition, contract maintenance, involvement in the preparation of monthly management accounts, accounting for the invoice discounting facility. Person Specification: Candidate must have had some relevant practical experience working in an accounts department. This role will occasionally involve filling in for more senior members in accounts when they are absent. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
I think these are enough examples for now to show that these jobs advertised on the fas.ie website clearly demonstrate that not only is this being abused but blatantly so. Fas has no real interest in creating genuine jobs for people, this system is seriously undermining the Irish economy as demonstrated by several posters here who see WWP workers coming into their companies affecting their jobs, the cost to tax payers and to be blunt a serious blow to the moral of those looking for work because all the postions offered require a very high level of responsibility with no gain to the worker other than experience. Finally, I doubt very much these positions will translate into actual jobs so for as long as this scheme is in operation, we can kiss a huge number of potential jobs goodbye and watch the recession continue on for a very long, long time.0
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