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From today I can call myself an atheist

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Comments

  • #152
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    dead one wrote: »
    I am saying, i m not arrogant. Perhaps it requires wisdom to understand wisdom

    But surely you believe Islam to be superior to all other religions? If you didn't, you wouldn't believe it, right?


  • #153
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    I can see why atheists are being increasingly characterised as arrogant. They show a degree of certainty that would embarrass a medieval inquisitor!

    I am a simple enough person. I can't prove that there is a supreme being; I just think it makes more sense to posit one than not.

    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing. Atheists do not accept that axiom. I consider it reasonable to do so. Thats all there is to it really!


  • #154
    Emmy Salty Sentry
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Emmy Salty Sentry


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I can see why atheists are being increasingly characterised as arrogant. They show a degree of certainty that would embarrass a medieval inquisitor!

    I am a simple enough person. I can't prove that there is a supreme being; I just think it makes more sense to posit one than not.

    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing. Atheists do not accept that axiom. I consider it reasonable to do so. Thats all there is to it really!

    The problem that "i dont know" doesnt mean anything except that you dont know

    congrats, I have now reinstated my old sig after reading your posts


  • #155
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I can see why atheists are being increasingly characterised as arrogant. They show a degree of certainty that would embarrass a medieval inquisitor!

    I am a simple enough person. I can't prove that there is a supreme being; I just think it makes more sense to posit one than not.

    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing. Atheists do not accept that axiom. I consider it reasonable to do so. Thats all there is to it really!

    You seem quite certain of that. You arrogant little medieval inquisitor you... :pac:


  • #156
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing. Atheists do not accept that axiom.
    Well of course they do. The problem is that the definition of "nothing" is incomplete. Few people would say that the universe came of nothing.
    You're also left with a logical paradox in your line of reasoning. If nothing can come from nothing, then where did God come from?

    Statements which do not answer this question include:

    1. God made himself
    2. God has always existed

    Also as I mentioned before, to claim that "God did it", is to ignore an infinite number of alternative possibilities.


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  • #157
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing.
    Er, so what created the deity?


  • #158
    virmilitaris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭virmilitaris


    dead one wrote: »
    What is source for this i.e man made distorted history. You have belief in manmade history than what makes you to deny universal truth (God). You can believe a man "Rapist" from distorted facts, Than what makes you to deny God. Can't you listen his cry.

    Ok I know nothing about Islam. Tell me what makes it different from the other religions ?
    No you don't know. Now tell me what makes you to reject christianity and Judasim? Please explain briefly. Than i will explain.

    The god in the bibles an asshole. Brief enough ?


  • #159
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing. Atheists do not accept that axiom. I consider it reasonable to do so. Thats all there is to it really!

    Theoretical physics disagrees.


  • #160
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing. Atheists do not accept that axiom.

    Why accept it when it's not true? This quick little article explains it better than I could.


  • #161
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I can see why atheists are being increasingly characterised as arrogant. They show a degree of certainty that would embarrass a medieval inquisitor!

    I am a simple enough person. I can't prove that there is a supreme being; I just think it makes more sense to posit one than not.

    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing. Atheists do not accept that axiom. I consider it reasonable to do so. Thats all there is to it really!

    Since when is asking you for evidence to support your assertions the action of an arrogant individual?

    I haven't shown any degree of certainty (at least that I can see) and I would be the first to acknowledge that we don't know everything but it doesn't follow that because we don't know what caused the universe that you can assert that a god did it.

    You are the one who came here making assertions of certainty ("The universe cannot have created itself.") All I have done is point out the flaw in your understanding of the big bang theory and your fallacious reasoning.

    It may be counter-intuitive to suggest that something can come from nothing. However, first of all we are aware of something coming from nothing:

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=are-virtual-particles-rea

    Secondly, nobody is suggesting that this is what happened in relation to the universe. As I have already said, the big bang makes no mention of the cause of the universe and neither does it feature in the cosmogonical theories which have been supported by evidence such as the cyclic universe theory posited by Roger Penrose or the bubble universe collision theory posited by Stephen Feeney.

    If you're going to claim reasonability for your position then you must show why that is. Otherwise the only fair response to your claim is dismissal. As Hitch said: "What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."


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  • #162
    virmilitaris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭virmilitaris


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Yes I am, the OP has decided he rejects all religions based on his experience with Catholism.

    As I pointed out in my previous post which you refused to answer, most atheists do not disbelieve in all deities because of the doctrine of any particular religion. They become atheist because of the first hurdle, i.e. Belief in a god (of any and all characteristics).

    The OP did not say he had become atheist because of his experiences with the Catholic Church. He said it started when he saw a scientific program about the Universe and continued when he read 'the God delusion' by Dawkins.

    Unless I'm very much mistaken, the OP said his disbelief in god has nothing to do with the doctrines of the Catholic Church.
    It's the same as someone who rejects all music based on only hearing one genere of music.

    No it is not because he is not rejecting music (belief in a deity) based on one particular genre (christianity), he is rejecting music (belief in a deity) based on a commonality of all genres (sound).

    I don't reject any religion because of their holy books or their laws or their unique beliefs, i reject the very root of them all, the existence of a deity.

    Almost all religions have a 'root' in common. For islam, christianity, judaism and many more that 'root' belief is a belief in a deity. After you reject or accept that you go up to the different branches of differing beliefs but the root is the same.
    I am not here to compare Islam to Christianity, or to try to convert anybody. I am simply interested in how the OP came to the conclusion there is no God.

    Well why not explain to us why we should give Islam a try ? What makes it different from christianity ?


  • #163
    b318isp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭b318isp


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I can see why atheists are being increasingly characterised as arrogant. They show a degree of certainty that would embarrass a medieval inquisitor!

    Perhaps you do not understand that atheists do not have to prove a God or justify a religion and, therefore, can be sceptical and critical about assertions - that may be seen as arrogant.

    The reverse of that coin is that many atheists feel theists are arrogant for shoving religion down their and other people's throats, without the sceptical and critical reasoning.


  • #164
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    b318isp wrote: »
    Perhaps you do not understand that atheists do not have to prove a God or justify a religion and, therefore, can be sceptical and critical about assertions - that may be seen as arrogant.

    The reverse of that coin is that many atheists feel theists are arrogant for shoving religion down their and other people's throats, without the sceptical and critical reasoning.

    Yup, cuts both ways, except one is from brainwashing, indoctrination, marketing salvation and life after death snake oil, etc., the other isn't.


  • #165
    virmilitaris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭virmilitaris


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing.

    Really, I can't even count how many times this argument has been refuted yet it still pops up. This argument is the modern day equivalent of "If the Eath is moving then why don't I feel it moving ?"

    Very briefly.

    1. Why do you think the Universe came from nothing ? Why do you supposed there ever was 'nothing' ? Why do you think the Universe is finite ?

    2. Something CAN come from nothing. It happens all around us all the time. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

    Summary from http://liberatedmind.com/2009/10/can-something-come-from-nothing/: There is also a notable phenomenon observed in quantum mechanics. Particles composed of quarks such as protons, neutrons, positrons, etc have been observed popping into existence from nowhere and leaving again just as fast. Such particles “appear” in a vacuum where no other matter or energy exists. At the quantum level, even empty space is not truly empty but is seething with activity; particles are constantly popping in and out of existence everywhere. In pair creation, a particle and its antimatter partner seem to “appear” (see Bosons). This is cutting edge quantum mechanics research. The Large Hadron Collider in Switzlerand was built and is just recently up and running in the search for the Higgs-Boson particle.
    Atheists do not accept that axiom.

    Scientists. It's pronounced Sci-en-tists.
    I consider it reasonable to do so.

    Because of ... ?


  • #166
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I can see why atheists are being increasingly characterised as arrogant. They show a degree of certainty that would embarrass a medieval inquisitor!
    Says the guy who posted this:
    Boulevardier wrote: »
    The universe cannot have created itself. There must therefore be a higher, but not necessarily personal, being.
    And then ignored this:
    Dades wrote:
    Again, if I believed I had the brainpower or knowledge to make a decision based on reason, I'd chose option one. But knowing my limitations I'm just going to have to remain open-minded on the question.

    And then we have this:
    Boulevardier wrote:
    I am a simple enough person. I can't prove that there is a supreme being; I just think it makes more sense to posit one than not.

    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing. Atheists do not accept that axiom. I consider it reasonable to do so. Thats all there is to it really!
    So because atheists don't accept (btw - did you ask them all?) your axiom (as a simple person) and instead remain open minded they are arrogant and show a degree of certainty that would embarrass a medieval inquisitor?

    I think the only person that should be embarrassed is you.


  • #167
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Somehow I don't think we'll be seeing Boulevardier again in this thread.


  • #168
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,065 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    We need a new disclaimer.

    Warning: Posting in a discussion forum will invite discussion. If someone makes an assertion that you disagree with it does not necessarily make that person arrogant and conversely if you make an assertion others disagree with it it does not necessarily make you arrogant. You are simply having a discussion. Read the title of the page again.


  • #169
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I can see why atheists are being increasingly characterised as arrogant. They show a degree of certainty that would embarrass a medieval inquisitor!

    I am a simple enough person. I can't prove that there is a supreme being; I just think it makes more sense to posit one than not.

    For me, it is axiomatic that nothing can come of nothing. Atheists do not accept that axiom. I consider it reasonable to do so. Thats all there is to it really!

    I know you'll ignore this, but positing something because you think it makes more sense, does not make it true, nor does it remove the burden of proof for your assertion.


  • #170
    Emmy Salty Sentry
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Emmy Salty Sentry


    Watch out lads, he's going to pray for us - any minute now


  • #171
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    virmilitaris wrote: »
    Ok I know nothing about Islam. Tell me what makes it different from the other religions ?
    The god in the bibles an asshole. Brief enough ?
    Why he is an a$$h0le?, that is exactly what islam explain. Brief enough!!!. If you are interested than study more islam.


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  • #172
    Gordon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,522 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    mikhail wrote: »
    Yes I am, the OP has decided he rejects all slavery based on his experience with one slave-owner. It's the same as someone who rejects all music based on only hearing one genere of music.

    Fallacious comparison is fallacious.

    It's the same as someone who rejects junk food in favour of making ones own food from scratch, based on being bombarded with adverts from one particular brand of ready meal.

    Lets be honest here, different religions are just different brands, it's all in the marketing. It's laughable how one can decide to jump from one belief system to another because it fits slightly better than the previous one. I really find it astounding that people still believe in religion, in this day and age.


  • #173
    virmilitaris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭virmilitaris


    dead one wrote: »
    Why he is an a$$h0le?, that is exactly what islam explain.

    Islam explains why god is an asshole ? Wow, you might get me to convert yet. Tell me more.
    Brief enough!!!. If you are interested than study more islam.

    I have asked three times now. Are you going to tell us why Islam is different from Christianity or not ?


  • #174
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    virmilitaris wrote: »
    Are you going to tell us why Islam is different from Christianity or not ?
    Islam explicitly condones paedophilia. It's just implied in christianity Catholicism.


  • #175
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    virmilitaris wrote: »
    Islam explains why god is an asshole ? Wow, you might get me to convert yet. Tell me more.
    Why jews and christian have made God an assholeee. Islam gives reason about it. There are many reason but just one reason.
    http://quran.com/9/30-33
    virmilitaris wrote: »
    I have asked three times now. Are you going to tell us why Islam is different from Christianity or not ?
    Judasim or Christianity are distorted teaching or false interpretation of Islam. Brief enough!!!!
    virmilitaris wrote: »
    ? Wow, you might get me to convert yet. Tell me more.

    i am not here to convert anyone. Think, what is better for yourself.


  • #176
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    seamus wrote: »
    Islam explicitly condones paedophilia. It's just implied in christianity Catholicism.

    Eh, no it doesn't. Aisha was between 16 and 19 when she was married to the Prophet. If she was a child then how some no big deal was ever made out of it? If she was a child, how come none of Prophet Muhammed's friends or enemies ever condemed it, or even commented on it? How come every word Aisha spoke about the prophet was of the highest regard, even after this death? All Prophet Muhammed's other wives were older than him. To say Islam condones paedophilia is very insulting and shows your total ignorance. If it is true, how come there is not widespread paedophilia amoungst Muslims? How come many Muslim countries have higher ages of concent than western countries?


  • #177
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    dead one wrote: »


    Judasim or Christianity are distorted teaching or false interpretation of Islam. Brief enough!!!!
    They're corruptions of Islam, despite the fact that both Judaism and Christianity are older than Islam? That's some trick.


  • #178
    Emmy Salty Sentry
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Emmy Salty Sentry


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Eh, no it doesn't. Aisha was between 16 and 19 when she was married to the Prophet. If she was a child then how some no big deal was ever made out of it? If she was a child, how come none of Prophet Muhammed's friends or enemies ever condemed it, or even commented on it? How come every word Aisha spoke about the prophet was of the highest regard, even after this death? All Prophet Muhammed's other wives were older than him. To say Islam condones paedophilia is very insulting and shows your total ignorance. If it is true, how come there is not widespread paedophilia amoungst Muslims? How come many Muslim countries have higher ages of concent than western countries?

    Because it was so utterly common? Bleeding = marrying

    As for muslim countries, there are enough child marriages in a number of them


  • #179
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Because it was so utterly common? Bleeding = marrying

    As for muslim countries, there are enough child marriages in a number of them
    If an atheists do something wrong. I can't blame whole atheist community for that. There are black sheep in every community. If in some muslim counties are ignorant about islam, it's not fault of islam, it is fault of that community/country.


  • #180
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Because it was so utterly common? Bleeding = marrying

    As for muslim countries, there are enough child marriages in a number of them

    So are you defending seamus's statement? Do you agree with it?


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  • #181
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Eh, no it doesn't. Aisha was between 16 and 19 when she was married to the Prophet.

    I beg to differ.
    Sahih al-Bukhari wrote: »


    Narrated Aisha:
    The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

    Sahih al-Bukhari wrote: »


    Narrated 'Aisha:
    that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).


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