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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

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Comments

  • #2252
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    ISAW;
    I dont trust atheists who make an issue about opposing church control.
    Well at last, a straight answer. I don't trust theists who make an issue of supporting church control.
    Nobody is saying that anyone in Gov should do more than what the people want them to do. People not in Gov should, as they are entitled to do, put forward their point of view and let the majority decide. Or even the involved parties, church and state, could sort it out themselves as in the case of education.
    Apparently you think Ireland Poland and Norway and the UK are not christian at all.
    I think post Christian is a better description of Ireland and the UK duno about Poland or Norway but I assume like the rest of Europe post Christian is an apt description.


  • #2253
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    ISAW;
    Mad as in you think Im insane or mad as in "mad as hell at the bEUrocrats and those elitists who award themselves and their buddies fat pensions for telling the rest of us how to think and not going to take it any more"
    For clarity, I intended bats in the belfry mad, as to the other, don't start me, righteous anger I would reign down upon them if I were to wake up as God tomorrow (right after I rearrange the geography, just to mess with your heads :D )


  • #2254
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    I think post Christian is a better description of Ireland and the UK duno about Poland or Norway but I assume like the rest of Europe post Christian is an apt description.

    I think "post-Christendom" is much more accurate. Christianity is still very healthy in most of Europe, but what has changed is that churches are no longer able to dominate culture and ram their views and standards down everyone else's throats.


  • #2255
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,987 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    ISAW wrote: »
    Nothing wrong at all

    So given you already admitted Australia which you brought up by means of comparison is NOT atheist...
    Is Norway in your opinion an atheist country?
    At the moment, I would be leaning towards yes.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76873344&postcount=2158
    Question ...It is the idea that there is no God. Do you think the would would be more preferable if people believed that?
    Answer ...Yes, but only insofar as I consider atheism to be true.
    Morbert has essentially FYP-ed that.
    [..] Norway are not atheistic nor are they 70 per cent atheist except in cartoons.
    That's not correct. Morbert has provided data to back up the claim that you're dismissing.
    correct atheist = a belief in no god
    atheistic = adopting atheism as a principle for society
    where are you getting that definition for atheistic? I've never seen that definition before.
    Hitler adopted naziism with a little over 30 % of the vote support and the roman church opposing him.
    could you list the anti theist states which did not have atheistic slogans like " ther is no god" as central and then list the ones which were Christian and we can compare the lists?

    Not being smart, but is it possible to be anti-theist and be Christian?:confused:
    An element of the atheist community do because they think Christianity is US fundamentalism. They are such an easy target.
    Much like some Christians use totalitarianism for their arguments against atheism.
    You must be because i dont recall stating secularism is the beginnings of anti-theism.
    You include implementing a secular school system in a list with anti-Jewish
    policies. Excuse me for presuming that you were stating that either of those can be the start of anti-theism.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2256
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    PDN wrote: »
    I think "post-Christendom" is much more accurate. Christianity is still very healthy in most of Europe, but what has changed is that churches are no longer able to dominate culture and ram their views and standards down everyone else's throats.

    True. In fact about two thirds of the worlds population is Christian.
    The paradigm that the world operates from is no longer a Christian one 'tho. Secular democracy is the dominant aspiration with the usual reactionary extreme competing for space.


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  • #2257
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    PDN wrote: »
    I think "post-Christendom" is much more accurate. Christianity is still very healthy in most of Europe, but what has changed is that churches are no longer able to dominate culture and ram their views and standards down everyone else's throats.


    Now this is a far more interesting discussion


  • #2258
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Morbert wrote: »
    From post #2234, which you never responded to: Norway is "officially" secular pluralist.

    Time and again I have quoted the Norwegian constitution to you which links the Monarch and the State to the Lutheran church.

    This is not about any claim by ME that Norway is pluralist or not. It is about your silly cartoon claim that Norway is 70% atheist.
    It is not 70% atheist as you claimed!
    It is not officially atheist !
    It is not officially 70% atheist!
    It is not atheist at all officially or not but certainly NOT 70% atheist as you claimed!
    Have you dropped your silly claim about atheism now?

    This is not about MY clai,! It is about YOUR claim posted in YOUR cartoon post and later restated by you that Norway is 70% atheist! It isnt!
    You can try to slip and slide and make all sorts of suggestions about me but you will not get off the hook for all that.

    You claimed Norway was 70% atheist and you clearly cant back that up because Norway is not atheist except in your cartoon argument!
    Do you accept that, in a secular pluralist society, even if the majority of people don't believe in God [as is the case in Norway],

    Nice try to get off the hook again.
    You are trying to CHANGE it from, 70% atheist to "majority dont believe in God"

    Are we to assume you now admit your 70% atheist claim is wrong?

    But in any case where is the evidence that the majority of people in Norway are atheist?
    By atheist I mean no supernatural entities forces God or gods.
    atrocities will not automatically be committed? Do you accept that the leader of Norway, who does not believe in God, will not commit atrocities?

    I believe you qre trying to shoehorn Norway into your cartoon and you have already been shown the shoe does not fit!

    The stats from you cartoon are simply wrong and you are wrong but you just cant accept that and admit it. Instead you try to switch to suggesting the clai, about Norway was mine and not yours. Any claim by me was a cunter claim. the original claim and mention of Norway was yours

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76811495&postcount=2119
    Thats post 2119 which trumps your 2234
    Do you accept that Japan is a perfectly healthy society?

    It is secular not atheistic.
    It is certainly a religious country for thousands of years.
    Buddhism may be atheist but shinto is a larger religion in Japan.
    Christianity in Japan although a tiny single digit percentage have had huge cultural influences which i would not like atheism even if single digit percentage to have anywhere .
    This has nothing to do with what I said. Your tactic has been to consistently misrepresent my position, presumably hoping to hide the utterly vapid claim you made: That atheism causes atrocities.

    Yes in every atheistic society promoting "there is no god" that is what happened.
    But this int about MY claim

    in 2219 you claimed Norway was 70% atheist
    In 2121 I pointed out he errors in your cartoon
    in 2124 I pointed out
    I note how you take up a belief and turn it into a claim
    I have been quite clear while I am suspicious of atheists in power but I do not claim all atheists are bent on atrocity. I don't claim it because I can't logically formally prove it. I don't distrust Christians in power as much. However I am suspicious of anyone in power. I have frequently stated I am anti authoritarian.

    But the point is that state enforced atheism resulted in HUGH genocide on a scale that State enforced Christianity NEVER approached!

    In 2148 you restated
    (I actually claimed it was 70%, which is true). It is Euro-barometer statistics I am using.

    eurobarometer did NOT state Norway is 70% atheist!

    You are clearly twisting what they state.

    The 2005 Eurobarometer Poll
    http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf

    asked whether the person believed "there is a God", believed "there is some sort of spirit of life force", "didn't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force".

    dont forget this is a survey of adults but nevertheless

    the Norway sample responded 32% "there is a God"
    47% "there is some sort of spirit of life force"
    17% "didn't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force".

    4% said dont know page 9 in the survey but you no doubt redefine these qgnostics as atheist -another 8% shift in your fiddling!

    thats 17% atheist! You then twist this to say if 32% believe in god then about 70% are atheist. It just does not say this!

    You juyst cant take the 17% and say that 17 is 70!
    Not only have you refused to show why it is the "atheism" in Totalitarian regimes that caused the atrocities, but you have also completely refused to address atheism existing in secular pluralist societies which show no hint of causing atrocities.

    I have addressed both of these issues . I pointed out about philosophies being followd for example by the nazis. I dont want to get into a debate about the Philosophy of the Middle ages and the Problem of unoiversals but the point was about following naziism and not individual nazis similarly about following christianity or atheism.


    these were dealt wtih in the five pqges or so prior to your cartoon posting about Norway.
    In fact he reason Norway came up was because of my pointing out several atheistic countries such as Stalinist russia Maoist China and Pol Pots Cambodia who did what they did specifically referring to destroying religion andf promoting atheism. Your counter example of Leopold of Belgiu, was not an example of someone either acting on behalf of the Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury or doing what he did in Africa in the name of Christianity. I also pointed out that congo also had a godless atheist Marxist group adding to the non christian created atrocities there.
    Norway, a country where only 30% believe in God, according to reputable Eurobarometer statistics, with a leader who does not believe in God, is perfectly healthy.

    There you go again trying to twist 30% belief in God into 70% atheism!
    you are just wrong about that!

    It may well be that page 30 same survey the 13% of people in Norway who think men make better political leaders voted for him and happen to be atheist as well
    The majority of people in Japan, similarly, do not believe in God. And not only do you have no evidence for your claim, you do not even have any sensible speculation as to why atheism might cause atrocities.

    It seems the majority of atheists running fro, the issue of surveys turn 30% christian into 70% atheist.

    Japan is a massive religious majority country about 95% Shinto and Buddhist that is a secular democracy. It isnt an atheist country or an atheist state unless yo redefine both Buddhism and Shinto as atheist. Even then it isnt atheistic."there is no god" is not a central tenet of the Japanese constitution. But even then I would have some criticisms of cultural values built on atheistic religions. However I am trying to stay with the Christianity vs atheism discussion and not get into one religion versus another.
    I have answered this at least 3 times so far. When I used an example you chose (Pol Pot), to illustrate why the atrocities are not due to atheism, you ran away.

    In yor cartoon world I did just as norway is 70% atheist there!

    In 2055 i pointed out
    Let us take the example of the Jews who are central to the WWII Holocaust.
    But you are then saying it isn't meglomania of Hitler because he would have killed anyone ( and maybe he would have eventually if given the chance so i would thin dont give him the chance to go any further based on what he did in the past)
    but his particular anti-Jew policy as outlined in the Nazi philosophy which led to Jews being singled out.

    You don't have to go looking for other reasons. "our superiour way is better than the Jews" was enough to lead to the persecution of Jews. The philosophy of their way being better and the promotion of that philosophy. A bit like promoting "there is no God" ?

    In 2063 you brought up Pol pot

    i replied in 2067 four messages later
    Why do you believe the Nazis or their philosophy didn't kill people - just their gas did?
    And after a long list of Pol Pots regime atrocities:

    So it isnt their gas now it is the policy behind the gas and the principle and beliefs behind that? But of course you say "this can only be applied to believers in God or some anti-Christian forms of theosophy and never applied to atheism" How come that?
    And when I pointed out the fact that atrocities committed by theists are up there with the best of them, you dismissed it as irrelevant, completely forgetting that you were the one who made the statement about atheism over theism in the first place.

    No I didnt .
    I pointed out
    1. such atrocities were minor by comparision to atheistic regimes
    2. The frequency in Christian countries was rare but in atheistic countries was 100% atrocious record
    3. some examples such as Leopold of belgium were not done to spread christiainty or at the behest of a christian leader whereas ALL atheistic regimes did it saying "there is no god"


  • #2259
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    koth wrote: »
    At the moment, I would be leaning towards yes.

    That's not correct. Morbert has provided data to back up the claim that you're dismissing.

    Go back and read the several independent surveys i offered.
    And hw Morbetr presents 30% believe in god in page 9 of
    http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf
    into 70% atheist

    I mean europe -*the EU 25- s 52% belief in god overall in that survey.
    Given a 3% error and your reasoning you could declare europe atheist!
    where are you getting that definition for atheistic? I've never seen that definition before.

    i have been quite clear what mean by atheist and atheistic
    i have posted it hundreds of ti,es in this discussion so it is clear what i man by atheistic.
    As for atheist and agnostic i go by the NONES survey that i also posted.
    Not being smart, but is it possible to be anti-theist and be Christian?

    interesting. I would think yes. One might believe in God and reject God. But the point is atheistic regimes specifically promoted atheism.
    Much like some Christians use totalitarianism for their arguments against atheism.

    Not really. Unless you believe atheists are misguided totalitarians just as fundamentalists are misguided christians?
    You include implementing a secular school system in a list with anti-Jewish
    policies. Excuse me for presuming that you were stating that either of those can be the start of anti-theism.
    The point is that anti church and anti christian policies are being touted as implementing secularism as if it is a righteous democratic thing. It isnt ! People dont want it! blaming the church is a big thing in todays society. REad the clerical abuse thread for examples. Just as scapegoating Jews blacks the Irish or whatever. Orwells 1984 showed how it can be done to whip up fear. More recently it was Arabs and Muslims and WMD. having God is a bad idea for such societies.


  • #2260
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    PDN wrote: »
    I think "post-Christendom" is much more accurate. Christianity is still very healthy in most of Europe, but what has changed is that churches are no longer able to dominate culture and ram their views and standards down everyone else's throats.

    As an anti authoritarian I have no problems with that. Of course heathens and heretics would have to leave christianity f they say the trinity for example was not true. But i hope that does not open the door to moving off topic into sectarian discussions rather than the goods or ills of christianity in society as opposed to atheism in society.


  • #2261
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,987 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    ISAW wrote: »
    Go back and read the several independent surveys i offered.
    And hw Morbetr presents 30% believe in god in page 9 of
    http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf
    into 70% atheist

    I mean europe -*the EU 25- s 52% belief in god overall in that survey.
    Given a 3% error and your reasoning you could declare europe atheist!
    That backs up Morberts argument. Only 32% expressed a belief in a God. Atheism to me is a lack of belief in a god(s).
    i have been quite clear what mean by atheist and atheistic
    i have posted it hundreds of ti,es in this discussion so it is clear what i man by atheistic.
    As for atheist and agnostic i go by the NONES survey that i also posted.
    Sorry, ISAW, I guess I wasn't clear. I've never seen anyone else ever use atheistic to mean promoting atheism.
    interesting. I would think yes. One might believe in God and reject God. But the point is atheistic regimes specifically promoted atheism.
    Anti-theist isn't rejecting god(s), to me at least, it's about attacking people who do believe in a god(s). To use your ant-theist definintion makes every atheist in the world an anti-theist, which obviously isn't true.
    Not really. Unless you believe atheists are misguided totalitarians just as fundamentalists are misguided christians?
    No, I don't agree with that premise.
    The point is that anti church and anti christian policies are being touted as implementing secularism as if it is a righteous democratic thing. It isnt ! People dont want it! blaming the church is a big thing in todays society. REad the clerical abuse thread for examples. Just as scapegoating Jews blacks the Irish or whatever. Orwells 1984 showed how it can be done to whip up fear. More recently it was Arabs and Muslims and WMD. having God is a bad idea for such societies.

    Can you give an example of the anti-church/christian policies that the government are alledgedly implementing?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #2262
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    ISAW, you might have missed my post so if you don't mind I'll ask you again to explain your position.

    Can you explain why a population not believing in a god or following an organized religion would not lead to atrocities (ie Norway), but a country not believing in god nor following an organized religion and identifying themselves as atheists, would.


  • #2263
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    ISAW wrote: »
    Time and again I have quoted the Norwegian constitution to you which links the Monarch and the State to the Lutheran church.

    This is not about any claim by ME that Norway is pluralist or not. It is about your silly cartoon claim that Norway is 70% atheist.
    It is not 70% atheist as you claimed!
    It is not officially atheist !
    It is not officially 70% atheist!
    It is not atheist at all officially or not but certainly NOT 70% atheist as you claimed!

    This is not about MY clai,! It is about YOUR claim posted in YOUR cartoon post and later restated by you that Norway is 70% atheist! It isnt!
    You can try to slip and slide and make all sorts of suggestions about me but you will not get off the hook for all that.

    You claimed Norway was 70% atheist and you clearly cant back that up because Norway is not atheist except in your cartoon argument!

    Nice try to get off the hook again.
    You are trying to CHANGE it from, 70% atheist to "majority dont believe in God"

    Are we to assume you now admit your 70% atheist claim is wrong?

    eurobarometer did NOT state Norway is 70% atheist!

    You are clearly twisting what they state.

    The 2005 Eurobarometer Poll
    http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/a..._report_en.pdf

    asked whether the person believed "there is a God", believed "there is some sort of spirit of life force", "didn't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force".

    dont forget this is a survey of adults but nevertheless

    the Norway sample responded 32% "there is a God"
    47% "there is some sort of spirit of life force"
    17% "didn't believe there is any sort of spirit, God or life force".

    4% said dont know page 9 in the survey but you no doubt redefine these qgnostics as atheist -another 8% shift in your fiddling!

    thats 17% atheist! You then twist this to say if 32% believe in god then about 70% are atheist. It just does not say this!

    You juyst cant take the 17% and say that 17 is 70!

    I believe you qre trying to shoehorn Norway into your cartoon and you have already been shown the shoe does not fit!

    The stats from you cartoon are simply wrong and you are wrong but you just cant accept that and admit it. Instead you try to switch to suggesting the clai, about Norway was mine and not yours. Any claim by me was a cunter claim. the original claim and mention of Norway was yours

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76811495&postcount=2119
    Thats post 2119 which trumps your 2234

    Only 30% of people in Norway say "There is a God" is closest to their beliefs. The rest are either materialists, or simply believe in spiritual forces. Simple as that. So unless you redefine atheists as materialists, atheism in Norway is obvious.
    But in any case where is the evidence that the majority of people in Norway are atheist?
    By atheist I mean no supernatural entities forces God or gods.

    That is not a definition of atheism. That is a definition of materialism. Are you changing your claim to "Materialists cause atrocities"? I have asked you before, what is it about believing in the supernatural that would steer people away from atrocities?
    It is secular not atheistic.
    It is certainly a religious country for thousands of years.
    Buddhism may be atheist but shinto is a larger religion in Japan.
    Christianity in Japan although a tiny single digit percentage have had huge cultural influences which i would not like atheism even if single digit percentage to have anywhere .

    Japan is a massive religious majority country about 95% Shinto and Buddhist that is a secular democracy. It isnt an atheist country or an atheist state unless yo redefine both Buddhism and Shinto as atheist. Even then it isnt atheistic."there is no god" is not a central tenet of the Japanese constitution. But even then I would have some criticisms of cultural values built on atheistic religions. However I am trying to stay with the Christianity vs atheism discussion and not get into one religion versus another.

    Ignoring your straw man and incorrect statements about religion in Japan: Trying a different strategy? The "Religious, theist fundamentalists attacked subways, which is proof that atheist Japan commits atrocities." line isn't looking so good? Now it's the tiny percentage of Christians that are responsible for Japan's healthy society? Keeping those atheists at bay? How noble.
    I have addressed both of these issues . I pointed out about philosophies being followd for example by the nazis. I dont want to get into a debate about the Philosophy of the Middle ages and the Problem of unoiversals but the point was about following naziism and not individual nazis similarly about following christianity or atheism.


    these were dealt wtih in the five pqges or so prior to your cartoon posting about Norway.
    In fact he reason Norway came up was because of my pointing out several atheistic countries such as Stalinist russia Maoist China and Pol Pots Cambodia who did what they did specifically referring to destroying religion andf promoting atheism. Your counter example of Leopold of Belgiu, was not an example of someone either acting on behalf of the Pope or Archbishop of Canterbury or doing what he did in Africa in the name of Christianity. I also pointed out that congo also had a godless atheist Marxist group adding to the non christian created atrocities there.

    More straw men. I clearly pointed out the problem with equating atheism with moral and political philosophies. And I clearly said Leopold of Belgium shows that the source of atrocities does not stem from atheism. What's tragic is these are all straw men you have wheeled out before.
    There you go again trying to twist 30% belief in God into 70% atheism!
    you are just wrong about that!

    What's wrong with that? A-theos: without God/gods. If 70% of people are without God/gods, they are atheist.
    It may well be that page 30 same survey the 13% of people in Norway who think men make better political leaders voted for him and happen to be atheist as well

    So do you believe the atheist leader of Norway will commit atrocities, or even attempt to predispose Norway to committing atrocities? I have asked you this a number of times.
    Let us take the example of the Jews who are central to the WWII Holocaust.
    But you are then saying it isn't meglomania of Hitler because he would have killed anyone ( and maybe he would have eventually if given the chance so i would thin dont give him the chance to go any further based on what he did in the past)
    but his particular anti-Jew policy as outlined in the Nazi philosophy which led to Jews being singled out.

    You don't have to go looking for other reasons. "our superiour way is better than the Jews" was enough to lead to the persecution of Jews. The philosophy of their way being better and the promotion of that philosophy. A bit like promoting "there is no God" ?

    In 2063 you brought up Pol pot

    i replied in 2067 four messages later
    Why do you believe the Nazis or their philosophy didn't kill people - just their gas did?
    And after a long list of Pol Pots regime atrocities:

    So it isnt their gas now it is the policy behind the gas and the principle and beliefs behind that? But of course you say "this can only be applied to believers in God or some anti-Christian forms of theosophy and never applied to atheism" How come that?

    As I said before (and before and before and before). Atheism, unlike Nazism or fundamentalist agrarian socialism, or anti-clericalism, says nothing about a way of life, or racial superiority, or social "enemies within". It is a metaphysical statement about the existence of God. That is all.

    And as an aside, I think exercising regularly is a better way of life. Does this mean I am going to start massacring overweight people?
    No I didnt .
    I pointed out
    1. such atrocities were minor by comparision to atheistic regimes
    2. The frequency in Christian countries was rare but in atheistic countries was 100% atrocious record
    3. some examples such as Leopold of belgium were not done to spread christiainty or at the behest of a christian leader whereas ALL atheistic regimes did it saying "there is no god"

    And I pointed out that this was all irrelevant to your claim about atheism, as opposed to totalitarian, anti-clerical regimes causing atrocities.


  • #2264
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    koth wrote: »
    That backs up Morberts argument. Only 32% expressed a belief in a God. Atheism to me is a lack of belief in a god(s).

    And now you are doing the same thing. you take 32% expressed belief in a god to mand 68% are atheist!

    ther is no way 68% said "there is certainly no god" in the atheist sense
    It is not sup^ported by other evidence which all support the idea of supernatural and spiritual forces fi not ony the monotheistic god of Christianity Islam and Judaism.
    Sorry, ISAW, I guess I wasn't clear. I've never seen anyone else ever use atheistic to mean promoting atheism.

    That is quite alright. I use it to distinguish between believing in something but doing nothing about it and promoting a belief or changing a society or the law to adhere to or suit that belief.
    Anti-theist isn't rejecting god(s), to me at least, it's about attacking people who do believe in a god(s). To use your ant-theist definintion makes every atheist in the world an anti-theist, which obviously isn't true.

    Only all atheists promoting or spreading atheism. If they dont do anything about their beliefs then they dont manifest as a threat.
    Can you give an example of the anti-church/christian policies that the government are alledgedly implementing?

    Not just the government. They have claimed that the church or religious ethos should be at about 50% of schools. They have claimed sexual abuse of children is rampant and endemic to the church. there qre suggestions to remove the idea of father and family from passports. They want slapping kids to be made illegal and fairy tales to be censored. Men who are alone with anyone under eighteen are treated with suspicion.
    They closed the Vatican embassy. They alleged the Vatican covered up child abuse.
    they snubbed the Pope by not inviting him to ireland during the eucharistic congress. But i dont think they are atheistic just influenced by the tiny single digit numbers of the atheistic element.


  • #2265
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Zombrex wrote: »
    ISAW, you might have missed my post so if you don't mind I'll ask you again to explain your position.

    i must have missed it. I dont claim to know everything.
    Can you explain why a population not believing in a god or following an organized religion would not lead to atrocities (ie Norway), but a country not believing in god nor following an organized religion and identifying themselves as atheists, would.

    No i cant because Norway is a State constitutionally rooted in Christianity so the first half of your question is in error. Norway does follow religion and believe in God. I never claimed a country not believing in god would automatically commit atrocities. I believe they would start down a slippery slope and eventually when the atheism is promoted nationally and if "there is no god" becomes socially/legally/constitutionally enshrined -pun intended- then they would start on the atrocity route.


  • #2266
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    koth wrote: »
    No, I don't agree with that premise.

    then your comparison isnt apt.


  • #2267
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    ISAW;
    They want slapping kids to be made illegal and fairy tales to be censored.

    What???

    Your starting to sound like someone with a persecution complex.
    50% was an estimate he guessed at in an interview btw unless you have acess to some Gov memo that states this as an end point or as you suspect a starting point, take it with a pinch of salt. Oh and the church itself hasn't objected to this estimate, untill some investigation as to the actual demand for ethos based schools, estimates are all we have.


  • #2268
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,987 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    ISAW wrote: »
    then your comparison isnt apt.

    It is actually. The problem with me was the phrasing of your post.
    Not really. Unless you believe atheists are misguided totalitarians just as fundamentalists are misguided christians?
    Fundamentalist Christians/ Creationists are a subset of Christians. Atheists are not a subset of totalitarians, i.e. not every atheist supports totalitarianism. Nor are all totalitarianists atheists.
    ISAW wrote: »
    And now you are doing the same thing. you take 32% expressed belief in a god to mand 68% are atheist!
    Well yes. Atheism is exactly that. If you don't believe in god(s) (the Christian one included in that), then you're an atheist.

    ther is no way 68% said "there is certainly no god" in the atheist sense
    I'm an atheist, and I've never said that. And nearly every atheist writer/speaker I'm aware of has never said that either.
    It is not sup^ported by other evidence which all support the idea of supernatural and spiritual forces fi not ony the monotheistic god of Christianity Islam and Judaism.
    Sorry, ISAW, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. Do you mean if someone believes in ghosts for example they can't be an atheist?


    That is quite alright. I use it to distinguish between believing in something but doing nothing about it and promoting a belief or changing a society or the law to adhere to or suit that belief.
    OK. but I have to say that until you explained that, it was extremely confused to understand the distinction.
    Only all atheists promoting or spreading atheism. If they dont do anything about their beliefs then they dont manifest as a threat.
    But then that makes Jewish and Muslims anti-Christian if they express their beliefs. The only way an atheist wouldn't be anti-thiest by reasoning is to be silent about the subject, and to never express their opinion on religious matters for their atheist perspective.


    Not just the government. They have claimed that the church or religious ethos should be at about 50% of schools.
    That's secularism, not anti-church/Christian. And it's only with regards to public schools.
    They have claimed sexual abuse of children is rampant and endemic to the church.
    the most vocal person in the government and most heard around the world to say this was Enda Kenny. A practising Roman Catholic.
    there qre suggestions to remove the idea of father and family from passports.
    How is that anti-church? And it was my understanding this was so that same sex parents can have parent1 and parent2 (or some other title) on the passport instead of the incorrect titles (at least for same sex parents) of mother and father.
    They want slapping kids to be made illegal
    that's not anti-church. that's anti physically beating a child. and it's something that people in all religious groups support.
    and fairy tales to be censored.
    I'm calling crap on that until I see some links.
    Men who are alone with anyone under eighteen are treated with suspicion.
    Not an anti-religion thing. This is because of so many stories of children being abused by men. The problem is that the focus is mainly on "stranger danger" when it's more often than not a person know to the child.
    They closed the Vatican embassy. They alleged the Vatican covered up child abuse.
    Yes, they closed the embassy, but does that mean that the government are also anti-Iran?
    they snubbed the Pope by not inviting him to ireland during the eucharistic congress.
    but it's an event the RCC has organised. Not being a member of the RCC, I don't understand why the pope needs to be invited to go an RCC event in Ireland.
    But i dont think they are atheistic just influenced by the tiny single digit numbers of the atheistic element.
    That's just daft. The Christians in the government are powerless before the will of an atheist? Sounds like the Christians shouldn't be in government if they are so easily led, not that I accept the possibility of that scenario being a reality.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2269
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    ISAW wrote: »
    And now you are doing the same thing. you take 32% expressed belief in a god to mand 68% are atheist!

    ther is no way 68% said "there is certainly no god" in the atheist sense
    It is not sup^ported by other evidence which all support the idea of supernatural and spiritual forces fi not ony the monotheistic god of Christianity Islam and Judaism.



    That is quite alright. I use it to distinguish between believing in something but doing nothing about it and promoting a belief or changing a society or the law to adhere to or suit that belief.



    Only all atheists promoting or spreading atheism. If they dont do anything about their beliefs then they dont manifest as a threat.



    Not just the government. They have claimed that the church or religious ethos should be at about 50% of schools. They have claimed sexual abuse of children is rampant and endemic to the church. there qre suggestions to remove the idea of father and family from passports. They want slapping kids to be made illegal and fairy tales to be censored. Men who are alone with anyone under eighteen are treated with suspicion.
    They closed the Vatican embassy. They alleged the Vatican covered up child abuse.
    they snubbed the Pope by not inviting him to ireland during the eucharistic congress. But i dont think they are atheistic just influenced by the tiny single digit numbers of the atheistic element.


    I am sorry ISAW but this is just conspiracy theory stuff, and as an aside , what is Christian about slapping kids and why would you object to it being made illegal ?


  • #2270
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Morbert wrote: »
    Only 30% of people in Norway say "There is a God" is closest to their beliefs. The rest are either materialists, or simply believe in spiritual forces. Simple as that. So unless you redefine atheists as materialists, atheism in Norway is obvious.
    there you go again!

    32 isnt 30 but nevertheless 30% expressing belief does not mean 70% atheist

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

    The majority of Americans (60% to 76%) identify themselves as Christians, mostly within Protestant and Catholic denominations, accounting for 51% and 25% of the population respectively.[4] Non-Christian religions (including Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.), collectively make up about 3.9% to 5.5% of the adult population.[4][5][6] Another 15% of the adult population identifies as having no religious belief or no religious affiliation
    about 5.2% said they did not know, or refused to reply

    Based on your reasoning the US is 36% atheist!

    Here is a list of countries without majority religion
    http://www.adherents.com/adh_predom.html
    Burkina Faso
    Cameroon
    Chad
    China
    Congo, Republic of the
    Cote d'Ivoire
    Eritrea
    Ethiopia
    Fiji
    Guyana
    Hong Kong
    Kazakstan
    Korea, South
    Lebanon
    Macau
    Madagascar
    Mozambique
    Nigeria
    Papua New Guinea
    Sierra Leone
    Singapore
    Suriname
    Taiwan
    Tanzania
    Zimbabwe

    Note any correlation with economic progress?
    That is not a definition of atheism. That is a definition of materialism. Are you changing your claim to "Materialists cause atrocities"? I have asked you before, what is it about believing in the supernatural that would steer people away from atrocities?

    And it isnt necessary to show a mechanism in order to accept a correlation!
    A statistical correlation between disease and sewer water was discovered before microbiology was.

    I have given the Nones survey definition of atheism.
    Ignoring your straw man and incorrect statements about religion in Japan: Trying a different strategy?

    LOL contradicting yourself! You claim to ignore it and immediately follow with a comment on it.
    The "Religious, theist fundamentalists attacked subways, which is proof that atheist Japan commits atrocities." line isn't looking so good?
    Aum Shira were kooks who knew more about computer hacking than about valid theological knowledge or philosophy.

    Japan has a kismet/karma/luck and other principles similar to predestination with which I dont necessarily think is an acceptable philosophy. Nevertheless Ill stand by it isnt atheistic and is a secular democracy. while it isnt majority christian and christianity is in fact a single digit percentage like atheism in the West, christianity has had more influence than atheism has had in the West.
    Now it's the tiny percentage of Christians that are responsible for Japan's healthy society? Keeping those atheists at bay? How noble.

    Yes unlike the damage caused by genocidal atheistic regimes in the West christianity had no such damage in Japan.
    I clearly pointed out the problem with equating atheism with moral and political philosophies.

    which is a cop out since I clearly pointed out we are comparing societies with christianity as a core value compared to those with atheism as a core value.
    And I clearly said Leopold of Belgium shows that the source of atrocities does not stem from atheism.

    Indeed and i clearly showed

    1. Leopold was not acting for or at the behest of or because of christianity
    2. while some non atheistic regimes e.g the nazis were not atheistic and indeed even some christian regimes committed atrocities
    few christian regimes committed atrocities and c.f 1 Leopolds congo was not one of them anyway unlike the atheistic Marxist regime in the congo
    whereas all atheistic regimes were atrocious
    What's tragic is these are all straw men you have wheeled out before.

    what is tragic is you dont seem to get 1 and 2
    Leopold isnt a christian genocide regime
    Few christian governments were genocidal ALL atheistic ones were!
    Atheism = "there is no God"
    Atheistic regimes have atheism " There is no god" as a central tenet
    Christian governments ( few are regimes) have "Christ is God live like Christ," as a central tenet.
    So...how come the atheistic ones are all murder regimes and the christian ones aren't?

    What's wrong with that? A-theos: without God/gods. If 70% of people are without God/gods, they are atheist.

    Norway isnt atheist!

    Eurostat does NOT say it is!

    the Norwegian CENSUS does not claim norway is 70atheistthis as you claimed in 2119
    It is completely insane to reclassify the 3.8 million church of Norway members as "atheist"!

    Also non church of Norway christians are growing at almost three times the rate of humanists and they outnumber them by almost three to one!

    There are also more Muslims than humanists/atheists

    It just isn't an atheist country!

    Approximately 9-10% are probably not members of any religious or philosophical communities, while 8.6 % of the population are members of other religious or philosophical communities outside the Church of Norway.
    http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/07/02/10/trosamf_en/
    Norways own statistics Religious and life stance communities, 1 January 2011

    http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/0...-06-01-en.html
    Members1 of religious and life stance communities outside the Church of Norway, by religion/life stance. Per 1 January. 2005-2011. Numbers and per cent

    As of 1 January 2011, 484 500 persons in Norway were members of religious and life stance communities; an increase of 37 700 compared with the previous year.

    More than half of the members, 266 800, were members of Christian communities.

    The non Lutheran believer communities are growing in Norway.
    This represents an increase of about 8 per cent compared to the previous year. The Christian communities had the largest increase.

    There is no Indication of atheism taking over as a belief.

    In 2005, a survey conducted by Gallup International in sixty-five countries indicated that Norway was the least religious country in Western Europe, with 29% counting themselves as believing in a church or deity, 26% as being atheists, and 45% not being entirely certain.

    That's about a quarter atheist not a majority and not 70% and it is the most atheist country in Europe.
    1.7% are Humanist 13% are nones.


    A number of independent surveys dont show Norway as even majority atheist
    INCLUDING NORWAYS OWN OFFICIAL STATISTICS FROM 2011!

    So do you believe the atheist leader of Norway will commit atrocities, or even attempt to predispose Norway to committing atrocities? I have asked you this a number of times.
    And i have answered you. If atheism is allowed to become a central tenet of society and christianity is curtailed I believe atrocities will follow as they always did in the past!
    As I said before (and before and before and before). Atheism, unlike Nazism or fundamentalist agrarian socialism, or anti-clericalism, says nothing about a way of life, or racial superiority, or social "enemies within". It is a metaphysical statement about the existence of God. That is all.

    And as i have said that is a cop out but as long as you keep saying you want no change and are allowing Norway to remain christian and dont want the constitution changed in Ireland or Norway to favour atheism then I have no problems with you keeping to yourself about your personal beliefs and not trying to insist others accommodate them.
    And as an aside, I think exercising regularly is a better way of life. Does this mean I am going to start massacring overweight people?

    so the Christians are fat people now are they?
    If and when you start bringing in laws against freedom to drink and smoke Ill have nothing to say about that.
    And I pointed out that this was all irrelevant to your claim about atheism, as opposed to totalitarian, anti-clerical regimes causing atrocities.
    no it isnt!
    there are totalist regimes.
    Atheistic regimes -totalist all- have atheism " There is no god" as a central tenet
    Christian governments ( few are regimes but some are totalist ) have "Christ is God live like Christ," as a central tenet.
    So...how come the atheistic ones are all murder regimes and the christian ones including totalist christian ones aren't all murdering genocidal regimes ?


  • #2271
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    koth wrote: »
    It is actually. The problem with me was the phrasing of your post.

    Fundamentalist Christians/ Creationists are a subset of Christians. Atheists are not a subset of totalitarians, i.e. not every atheist supports totalitarianism. Nor are all totalitarianists atheists.

    It isnt actually you asked
    Not being smart, but is it possible to be anti-theist and be Christian?
    interesting. I would think yes. One might believe in God and reject God. But the point is atheistic regimes specifically promoted atheism.
    Quote:
    Much like some Christians use totalitarianism for their arguments against atheism.


    Not really. Unless you believe atheists are misguided totalitarians just as fundamentalists are misguided christians?

    Here we are discussing

    P :the subset of atheistic regimes promoting atheism as a sub set of





    Well yes. Atheism is exactly that. If you don't believe in god(s) (the Christian one included in that), then you're an atheist.



    I'm an atheist, and I've never said that. And nearly every atheist writer/speaker I'm aware of has never said that either.


    Sorry, ISAW, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. Do you mean if someone believes in ghosts for example they can't be an atheist?




    OK. but I have to say that until you explained that, it was extremely confused to understand the distinction.


    But then that makes Jewish and Muslims anti-Christian if they express their beliefs. The only way an atheist wouldn't be anti-thiest by reasoning is to be silent about the subject, and to never express their opinion on religious matters for their atheist perspective.




    That's secularism, not anti-church/Christian. And it's only with regards to public schools.


    the most vocal person in the government and most heard around the world to say this was Enda Kenny. A practising Roman Catholic.


    How is that anti-church? And it was my understanding this was so that same sex parents can have parent1 and parent2 (or some other title) on the passport instead of the incorrect titles (at least for same sex parents) of mother and father.


    that's not anti-church. that's anti physically beating a child. and it's something that people in all religious groups support.

    I'm calling crap on that until I see some links.

    Not an anti-religion thing. This is because of so many stories of children being abused by men. The problem is that the focus is mainly on "stranger danger" when it's more often than not a person know to the child.

    Yes, they closed the embassy, but does that mean that the government are also anti-Iran?

    but it's an event the RCC has organised. Not being a member of the RCC, I don't understand why the pope needs to be invited to go an RCC event in Ireland.


    That's just daft. The Christians in the government are powerless before the will of an atheist? Sounds like the Christians shouldn't be in government if they are so easily led, not that I accept the possibility of that scenario being a reality.


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  • #2272
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    koth wrote: »
    It is actually. The problem with me was the phrasing of your post.

    Fundamentalist Christians/ Creationists are a subset of Christians. Atheists are not a subset of totalitarians, i.e. not every atheist supports totalitarianism. Nor are all totalitarianists atheists.

    It isnt actually you asked
    Not being smart, but is it possible to be anti-theist and be Christian?
    interesting. I would think yes. One might believe in God and reject God. But the point is atheistic regimes specifically promoted atheism.
    Quote:
    Much like some Christians use totalitarianism for their arguments against atheism.


    Not really. Unless you believe atheists are misguided totalitarians just as fundamentalists are misguided christians?

    Here we are discussing

    P :the subset of atheistic totalitarian regimes promoting atheism as a sub set of all atheists

    Q: the subset of fundamentalist christian totalitarian regimes promoting christianity as a sub set of all christians

    the salient point made by you are the words much like

    so the very pint you made yourself is what i pointed out to you
    you czant say one is MUCH LIKE the other since you yourself admit one is not comparing like with like since one is not comparing Q to the complement of P i.e the set of all atheists LESS P but comparing Q to P

    so it isnt MUCH LIKE art all as you claimed!

    YOUR phraseology not mine.


  • #2273
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,987 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    koth wrote: »
    You don't have to be an atheist to think that creationism is silly (it is) or that it's a central Christian issue (I don't think that it is).
    ISAW wrote: »
    An element of the atheist community do because they think Christianity is US fundamentalism. They are such an easy target.
    koth wrote: »
    Much like some Christians use totalitarianism for their arguments against atheism.
    ISAW wrote: »
    Not really. Unless you believe atheists are misguided totalitarians just as fundamentalists are misguided christians?

    I think you missed what I was trying to say. I was making the point that choosing an easy target such as creationism to argue against Christianity is just almost as disingenuous as using totalitarianism to argue against atheism.

    that's what the much like comment was about. It wasn't saying that totalitarism is a subset of atheism.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2274
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    ISAW wrote: »
    there you go again!

    32 isnt 30 but nevertheless 30% expressing belief does not mean 70% atheist

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States

    The majority of Americans (60% to 76%) identify themselves as Christians, mostly within Protestant and Catholic denominations, accounting for 51% and 25% of the population respectively.[4] Non-Christian religions (including Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.), collectively make up about 3.9% to 5.5% of the adult population.[4][5][6] Another 15% of the adult population identifies as having no religious belief or no religious affiliation
    about 5.2% said they did not know, or refused to reply

    Based on your reasoning the US is 36% atheist!

    No. Based on my reasoning, the % of atheists in America is the % of people in America who do not believe in God or gods.
    Here is a list of countries without majority religion
    http://www.adherents.com/adh_predom.html
    Burkina Faso
    Cameroon
    Chad
    China
    Congo, Republic of the
    Cote d'Ivoire
    Eritrea
    Ethiopia
    Fiji
    Guyana
    Hong Kong
    Kazakstan
    Korea, South
    Lebanon
    Macau
    Madagascar
    Mozambique
    Nigeria
    Papua New Guinea
    Sierra Leone
    Singapore
    Suriname
    Taiwan
    Tanzania
    Zimbabwe

    Note any correlation with economic progress?

    "No majority religion" means no single dominant religion. There is still plenty of religion in those countries.
    And it isnt necessary to show a mechanism in order to accept a correlation!
    A statistical correlation between disease and sewer water was discovered before microbiology was.

    Firstly, I interpret this as an admission that you, in fact, have no inherent reason to suspect atheism is to blame.

    Secondly, there is no statistical correlation, as evidenced by Japan, Norway, and other countries where atheism (definition:Not believing in God) is a dominant philosophical position. If you want to change you statement to "State-enforced atheism causes atrocities", you would still be wrong, as your "statistical correlation" is too small to be significant, never-mind the fact that we could still look at each individual case and identify the true causes. If you want to change your statement to "Totalitarianism causes atrocities.", then you would be correct.
    I have given the Nones survey definition of atheism.

    That is an incorrect definition.
    LOL contradicting yourself! You claim to ignore it and immediately follow with a comment on it.

    I did not do this.
    Aum Shira were kooks who knew more about computer hacking than about valid theological knowledge or philosophy.

    Japan has a kismet/karma/luck and other principles similar to predestination with which I dont necessarily think is an acceptable philosophy. Nevertheless Ill stand by it isnt atheistic and is a secular democracy. while it isnt majority christian and christianity is in fact a single digit percentage like atheism in the West, christianity has had more influence than atheism has had in the West.

    Yes unlike the damage caused by genocidal atheistic regimes in the West christianity had no such damage in Japan

    So changing your strategy? You claimed it was Japan's atheism that was to blame for theist atrocities.

    Your new strategy is entirely irrelevant to anything I have said, and entirely irrelevant to your claim that atheism causes atrocities. We are discussing whether secular pluralist states, with majority populations that don't believe in God, will commit atrocities.
    which is a cop out since I clearly pointed out we are comparing societies with christianity as a core value compared to those with atheism as a core value.

    We are not doing that at all. This is another attempt by you to shift the conversation. We are talking about whether or not atheism inherently predisposes people towards committing atrocities. We are talking about whether atheism in secular pluralist countries will predispose such countries to atrocities.

    Indeed and i clearly showed

    1. Leopold was not acting for or at the behest of or because of christianity
    2. while some non atheistic regimes e.g the nazis were not atheistic and indeed even some christian regimes committed atrocities
    few christian regimes committed atrocities and c.f 1 Leopolds congo was not one of them anyway unlike the atheistic Marxist regime in the congo
    whereas all atheistic regimes were atrocious

    what is tragic is you dont seem to get 1 and 2
    Leopold isnt a christian genocide regime
    Few christian governments were genocidal ALL atheistic ones were!
    Atheism = "there is no God"
    Atheistic regimes have atheism " There is no god" as a central tenet
    Christian governments ( few are regimes) have "Christ is God live like Christ," as a central tenet.

    All of which is utterly irrelevant, and another attempt to shift the conversation.
    So...how come the atheistic ones are all murder regimes and the christian ones aren't?

    Because of their murderous principles, principles that are rejected by atheists outside such regimes. Not because of their atheism. There is no reason to believe that, if Pol Pot had been Christian, he would have been less brutal, as evidenced by King Leopold, a Christian who incidentally committed genocide.
    Norway isnt atheist!

    Eurostat does NOT say it is!

    the Norwegian CENSUS does not claim norway is 70atheistthis as you claimed in 2119
    It is completely insane to reclassify the 3.8 million church of Norway members as "atheist"!

    As I have said before, people in Norway are automatically registered. It is like calling me a member of the Congregationalist church. I have made this point frequently and you consistently ignore it.
    Also non church of Norway christians are growing at almost three times the rate of humanists and they outnumber them by almost three to one!

    There are also more Muslims than humanists/atheists

    It just isn't an atheist country!

    Approximately 9-10% are probably not members of any religious or philosophical communities, while 8.6 % of the population are members of other religious or philosophical communities outside the Church of Norway.
    http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/07/02/10/trosamf_en/
    Norways own statistics Religious and life stance communities, 1 January 2011

    http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/0...-06-01-en.html
    Members1 of religious and life stance communities outside the Church of Norway, by religion/life stance. Per 1 January. 2005-2011. Numbers and per cent

    As of 1 January 2011, 484 500 persons in Norway were members of religious and life stance communities; an increase of 37 700 compared with the previous year.

    More than half of the members, 266 800, were members of Christian communities.

    The non Lutheran believer communities are growing in Norway.
    This represents an increase of about 8 per cent compared to the previous year. The Christian communities had the largest increase.

    There is no Indication of atheism taking over as a belief.

    In 2005, a survey conducted by Gallup International in sixty-five countries indicated that Norway was the least religious country in Western Europe, with 29% counting themselves as believing in a church or deity, 26% as being atheists, and 45% not being entirely certain.

    That's about a quarter atheist not a majority and not 70% and it is the most atheist country in Europe.
    1.7% are Humanist 13% are nones.

    A number of independent surveys dont show Norway as even majority atheist
    INCLUDING NORWAYS OWN OFFICIAL STATISTICS FROM 2011!

    Much of this is irrelevant. What is relevant, however, is how atheism is defined in such surveys. Reading over those links, I would not be an atheist under such definition. None of the above, however contradicts the fact that 70% of Norwegians do not believe in God, follow no religion, and are secular pluralists. If you do not want to define atheism as not believing in God, then you put yourself in the problematic position of defending your arbitrary demarcation. People who don't believe in God, but believe in the supernatural, won't commit atrocities? Why?
    And i have answered you. If atheism is allowed to become a central tenet of society and christianity is curtailed I believe atrocities will follow as they always did in the past!

    And I have told you that such a belief is speculative and unreasonable.
    And as i have said that is a cop out but as long as you keep saying you want no change and are allowing Norway to remain christian and dont want the constitution changed in Ireland or Norway to favour atheism then I have no problems with you keeping to yourself about your personal beliefs and not trying to insist others accommodate them.

    Norway isn't Christian.

    I want the constitution changed to favour secularism, in a manner similar to the 1st amendment in the United States: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Similarly, I have no problem with you keeping to yourself about your personal beliefs and not trying to insist others accommodate them. I also have no problem with you arguing that your beliefs are true, and have no problem with myself and others telling you your beliefs are false.
    so the Christians are fat people now are they?
    If and when you start bringing in laws against freedom to drink and smoke Ill have nothing to say about that.

    You are not making any sense. You said all that was needed was the claim that "X is a better way of life.". Now you are claiming that you actually need oppression, which was my point all along.
    no it isnt!
    there are totalist regimes.
    Atheistic regimes -totalist all- have atheism " There is no god" as a central tenet
    Christian governments ( few are regimes but some are totalist ) have "Christ is God live like Christ," as a central tenet.
    So...how come the atheistic ones are all murder regimes and the christian ones including totalist christian ones aren't all murdering genocidal regimes ?

    How does this show that atheism, in the context of a secular pluralist society, will result in atrocities?


  • #2275
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Sorry if I miss this earlier
    Zombrex wrote: »
    ISAW wasn't your argument that societies that turn their back on organized religion and turn their back on a notion of a deity or divine being who provides moral clarity, that these societies will inevitably lead to civil and physical rights abuses, creeping ever closer to totalitarianism, while the countries scientific, philosophical and artistic output will grind to a halt?

    Not necessarily an overarching natural law secular or god given -not relativism like yuou or nihilism like Morbert. And not based on atheism.
    You now seem to be saying that this will only happen if a country specifically declares itself "atheist", that it won't happen if they reject religion but don't formally declare themselves "atheist".

    No. Based on history it is not impossible for a christian country to be oppressive. It is unlikely it will be a genocidal regime. However all atheoist countries which replaced the church with atheism were genocidal. Im happy to admit genocide isnt exclusive to atheistic regimes but all atheistic regimes were genocidal and few christian ones were.

    For example, by all statistics the population of Norway has clearly turned its back on traditional notions of organized religion, on notions of divine revelation and divinely guided morality.

    this would include Norways own official stats from 2011 which show it over 95% religious?
    They haven't as yet officially declared themselves to be an atheist country,

    Oh so your "all statistics" actually means "all cartoon and cherry picked stats suggesting Norway is atheist but even then actually saying it isnt"?
    and I suspect they never will since they are not Communist and thus I imagine see no reason to.

    North Korea isnt communist either and is atheistic I reckon.
    Cuba is communist and isnt anti catholic.
    They also seem to have a large amount of new age spirituality in the country.

    Which also isnt atheism! By "large " I suppose you mean "low single digiit percentqges but still growing slower than Catholicism oir Islam"? sorta like atheism in terms of percentages only?
    You seem to think that the rejection of religion is not relevant to the slide to totalitarism, yet if they actually officially declared themselves to be atheists that would have huge effect.

    Yep. Just like the non constitutional persecution of the church and Jews was not really relevant to the rise of Naziism except in attracting members but the declaration of the nazi dictatorship was since they were not afraid then to attack religion.
    Can you explain the logic you think that formally declaring one-selves "atheist" would cause totalitarianism, where as rejecting religion but not formally declaring the country to be atheist wouldn't. What is it about the word atheist that causes totalitarianism?

    All states declaring themselves atheist were genocidal. ALL of them.
    NOT all totalitarian states were genocidal
    NOT all communist states were
    NOT all christian ones were.
    Only ALL atheist ones were.

    Why do you think that might be?

    Why do you think totalitarian regimes repress religion but promote atheism if it is such a good thing to promote?

    It is quite simple if atheists dont want atheism spread and promoted especially not at the expense of believers or by believers losing anything then believers will have no problems with atheists until they start promoting atheism as a better way and a good thing.


  • #2276
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    koth wrote: »
    I think you missed what I was trying to say. I was making the point that choosing an easy target such as creationism to argue against Christianity is just almost as disingenuous as using totalitarianism to argue against atheism.

    that's what the much like comment was about. It wasn't saying that totalitarism is a subset of atheism.

    But creationism CANT be used as an argument against Christianity unless creationists are regarded as christian! i;e they are a subset
    Therefore attacking the silliness of creationsçm becomes an attack against christianity.
    If ther were any Biblical creationists who werre not regarded as Christian this argument would not hold up.


    Likewise to be the same one would argue against atheism based on the fact that all totalitarian regimes are atheist! totalitarians are thus regarded as atheist and attacking the evil of totalism becomes an attack on atheism. It wouls not hld up if there were totalists who are not atheist. i could argue christian regimes are Authoritarian not totalitarian but that is a different issue.

    i didnt maintain that; what i suggested was all atheist regimes were totalitarian not the other way around.

    Do you understand?

    In such a way you could say creationists promote Christianity or totalists promote atheism but you could not logically conclude christianity promotes creationism or atheism promotes totalitarianism.

    But Ill ask you.
    Why is the totalitarianism regimes promote atheism and yet oppose Christianity?

    Would you not conclude Christianity is maybe incompatible with totalism but atheism is compatible with it?


  • #2277
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    ISAW wrote: »
    Sorry if I miss this earlier



    Not necessarily an overarching natural law secular or god given -not relativism like yuou or nihilism like Morbert. And not based on atheism.



    No. Based on history it is not impossible for a christian country to be oppressive. It is unlikely it will be a genocidal regime. However all atheoist countries which replaced the church with atheism were genocidal. Im happy to admit genocide isnt exclusive to atheistic regimes but all atheistic regimes were genocidal and few christian ones were.




    this would include Norways own official stats from 2011 which show it over 95% religious?



    Oh so your "all statistics" actually means "all cartoon and cherry picked stats suggesting Norway is atheist but even then actually saying it isnt"?



    North Korea isnt communist either and is atheistic I reckon.
    Cuba is communist and isnt anti catholic.



    Which also isnt atheism! By "large " I suppose you mean "low single digiit percentqges but still growing slower than Catholicism oir Islam"? sorta like atheism in terms of percentages only?


    Yep. Just like the non constitutional persecution of the church and Jews was not really relevant to the rise of Naziism except in attracting members but the declaration of the nazi dictatorship was since they were not afraid then to attack religion.



    All states declaring themselves atheist were genocidal. ALL of them.
    NOT all totalitarian states were genocidal
    NOT all communist states were
    NOT all christian ones were.
    Only ALL atheist ones were.

    Why do you think that might be?

    Why do you think totalitarian regimes repress religion but promote atheism if it is such a good thing to promote?

    It is quite simple if atheists dont want atheism spread and promoted especially not at the expense of believers or by believers losing anything then believers will have no problems with atheists until they start promoting atheism as a better way and a good thing.

    Would you like those atheists promoting their beliefs to wear some sort of signifier and thus make it easier to be identified ? for instance a yellow star ?


  • #2278
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    marienbad wrote: »
    I am sorry ISAW but this is just conspiracy theory stuff, and as an aside , what is Christian about slapping kids and why would you object to it being made illegal ?


    ISAW , could I have a reply to this please , particulary on the slapping kids part, Thanks


  • #2279
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,987 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    ISAW wrote: »
    But creationism CANT be used as an argument against Christianity unless creationists are regarded as christian! i;e they are a subset
    Therefore attacking the silliness of creationsçm becomes an attack against christianity.
    If ther were any Biblical creationists who werre not regarded as Christian this argument would not hold up.
    Saying creationism is silly isn't an attack on Christianity unless you assume all Christians, or at least the majority, are creationists. Plus I've seen plenty of Christians also state that creationism is silly.
    Likewise to be the same one would argue against atheism based on the fact that all totalitarian regimes are atheist! totalitarians are thus regarded as atheist and attacking the evil of totalism becomes an attack on atheism. It wouls not hld up if there were totalists who are not atheist. i could argue christian regimes are Authoritarian not totalitarian but that is a different issue.
    But atheism isn't the reason that the totalitarians are a problem, it's totalitarianism that's the problem. and I wouldn't view attacking totalitarianism as an attack on atheism because I don't think of totalitarianism as a part of atheism.
    i didnt maintain that; what i suggested was all atheist regimes were totalitarian not the other way around.
    You maintain that atheism causes atrocities, yet the only examples you give are of totalitarian governments. Why isn't it "totalitarianism causes atrocities"?
    Do you understand?
    possibly. but we'll just have to see how things progress to see if I do.
    In such a way you could say creationists promote Christianity or totalists promote atheism but you could not logically conclude christianity promotes creationism or atheism promotes totalitarianism.
    Exactly:)
    But Ill ask you.
    Why is the totalitarianism regimes promote atheism and yet oppose Christianity?
    Because they don't want any other organisation (Christianitiy, Muslim,Jew etc.) competing for the place of authority in the lives of the nation's citizens.
    Would you not conclude Christianity is maybe incompatible with totalism but atheism is compatible with it?
    No because Christians could suppress all other religions and have the head of state also as the head of the religion. Then you you have a totalitarian Christian government. Totalitarianism is the concept of a government having absolute control over it's citizens, in both public and private. There is nothing to preclude any ideology from going down that route.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #2280
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Morbert wrote: »
    No. Based on my reasoning, the % of atheists in America is the % of people in America who do not believe in God or gods.

    In addition to mainstream religions There are polytheists pagans shamanists agnostics and other NONES Atheists are a tiny percentage.
    people in America who do not believe in God or gods are not the same as
    all people in the USA outside the group of "people who believe in god or gods"

    you try to classify all thse in Norway not answering YES to "Do you believe in a god" as atheist. they arent! Even then several other surveys contradict your 70% atheist clai,m fo Norway.

    Norway isnt 70% atheist!
    "No majority religion" means no single dominant religion. There is still plenty of religion in those countries.

    Fair enough. But these are the only countries that might possibly be atheist if all the others have over 50% religions. Unless atheism of course can be a religion or a religion be based on atheism. Norway is NOt one of these countries!

    Firstly, I interpret this as an admission that you, in fact, have no inherent reason to suspect atheism is to blame.

    I am suspiscious but as I have stated i cant formally logically prove it . All i can say in the absence of showing a mechanism is history shows all atheistic regimes were atrocious and in the absence of a theory of microbes and disease John Snow could only say he believed cholera spread through water:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Snow_%28physician%29
    . The germ theory of disease was not to be created until 1861[citation needed], so he was unaware of the mechanism by which the disease was transmitted, but evidence led him to believe that it was not due to breathing foul air.

    Secondly, there is no statistical correlation, as evidenced by Japan, Norway, and other countries where atheism (definition:Not believing in God) is a dominant philosophical position.

    Japan - secular democracy with over 90% religious adherence

    according to you Shinto and Buddhism = atheism? The word Shinto means "Way of the Gods" The Shink part Kami are defined in English as "spirits", "essences" or "deities".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

    But according to you this is all atheist?

    If you want to change you statement to "State-enforced atheism causes atrocities", you would still be wrong, as your "statistical correlation" is too small to be significant,

    Really a 100% correlation is insignificant?

    I think yu might me the sample populmation of atheistic regimes is small.

    Ther are several in the nineteenth and twentieth century spanning about 100 years between them about 5-10% of the time since christianity became established.
    If you call Bhuddism -not shinto-atheism then you can add in various Middle age and ancient chinese regimes. bringing the yeqrs spanned to several hundred years compared to say 1700 for christianity. It can be regarded as a valid and reliable correlation!
    never-mind the fact that we could still look at each individual case and identify the true causes. If you want to change your statement to "Totalitarianism causes atrocities.", then you would be correct.

    AHA! But back to basic statistical principles§
    NON totalitarian regimes also caused atrocities so totalitarianism was no common to these atrocities
    Also NOT ALL christian regimes caused atrocities but a few did indeed cause them
    However ALL atheistic regimes ALWAYS caused atrocities
    That is an incorrect definition.

    Again it is a published report on American Nones by trinity college and found on the Us official site for such stats. you however have your personal opinion.
    http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/files/2011/08/NONES_08.pdf

    pageii
    The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2008 is a random digit dialed (RDD) survey of a nationally representative sample of 54,461 adults. Of those, 7,047 are Nones, or individuals who responded to the question: What is your religion, if any? with “none,” “atheist,” “agnostic,” “secular,” or “humanist.”
    The sampling error for the full ARIS 2008 is +/- 0.31%. For the No Religion sub-sample, the
    sampling error is +/- 2.38%.

    page 11 defines atheist under Figure 1.13
    Regarding the existence of God, do you think…?

    There is no such thing = Atheist = 2% of US adults!



    I did not do this.
    Yes you did
    contradicting yourself! You claim to ignore it and immediately follow with a comment on it.

    Your words claiming to ignore it in bold
    Ignoring [:b]your straw man and incorrect statements about religion in Japan:

    Followed immediately by "Trying a different strategy?" i.e. a direct comment on religion in Japan and "The "Religious, theist fundamentalists attacked subways, which is proof that atheist Japan commits atrocities." line isn't looking so good? " another direct comment on religion in Japan as a straw man or incorrect statement.

    You just stated you were IGNORING something and then immediately following that drew attention to it! You remind me of the Austin Powers self contradictory photographer waving his hand above the camera and yelling at the model "ignore this" :)
    So changing your strategy? You claimed it was Japan's atheism that was to blame for theist atrocities.

    Go back and look. i made a distinction between Bhuddism which might be regarded as atheism The prevelance of Shinto versus Emporer worship and and the recent collapse of traditional values in the 20th century. I also dont regard Aum Shira as a proper religion and look upon them more as coming from a godless techological atheist tradition . i do,nt think Aum shira no more than North koreas Juche is a god worshipping religion.

    We are discussing whether secular pluralist states, with majority populations that don't believe in God, will commit atrocities.

    No we are not! you are claiming Norway is 70% atheist and you are trying to hide that now! It isnt! And Japan is not atheistic. Im unclear if you regqrd shinto or Bhudism as atheism; do you ?
    We are talking about whether atheism in secular pluralist countries will predispose such countries to atrocities.
    you are back to shifting fro,m 70% atheist -untrue
    to secular pluralist -Norway is massive majority plus church linked constitutionally to the state

    As for atheism causing anyting you picked Norway as such a country not as secular or pluaralist but as 70% atheist . Norway probably had a pagan past and for 1000 years has been christian. Incidentally Norway can be regarded as uite insular and conservative and not the progressive modernist state you paint.
    Because of their murderous principles, principles that are rejected by atheists outside such regimes.

    Not by the atheists in such regimes however. And why did such regimes promote atheism and reject Christianity?
    Not because of their atheism. There is no reason to believe that, if Pol Pot had been Christian, he would have been less brutal, as evidenced by King Leopold, a Christian who incidentally committed genocide.

    Leopold didnt do it in the name of promoting Christianity. Pol pot on the other hand specifically promoted atheism.
    As I have said before, people in Norway are automatically registered. It is like calling me a member of the Congregationalist church. I have made this point frequently and you consistently ignore it.

    i havent ignored it. it doesnt make Norway 70% atheist no more than a hundred atheists demanding t be excommunicated makes Ireland atheist. You just cant reclassify all Lutherans or even 20% of them as atheist!
    Much of this is irrelevant. What is relevant, however, is how atheism is defined in such surveys. Reading over those links, I would not be an atheist under such definition. None of the above, however contradicts the fact that 70% of Norwegians do not believe in God, follow no religion, and are secular pluralists.

    70% are not atheist as you claimed!
    32% Answering yes to "Do you believe in a God" does not mean 70% are atheist!
    If you do not want to define atheism as not believing in God, then you put yourself in the problematic position of defending your arbitrary demarcation.

    It isnt qrbitqry. the Nones survey use it! the Atheists in teh A&A forum use it!
    People who don't believe in God, but believe in the supernatural, won't commit atrocities? Why?

    Maybe they d so to a lesser extent because they are closer to the truth and not atheist or not without some absolute guiding values?
    And I have told you that such a belief is speculative and unreasonable.

    And we should accept your orders or your opinions because?...
    Norway isn't Christian.
    Nice try to shift the burden but you claimed it is 70% atheist!

    I want the constitution changed to favour secularism, in a manner similar to the 1st amendment in the United States: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    This would be the US that has the Patriot Act and Invaded Iraq for WMD that werent there to bring freedom to a million people by killing them and removing al Khyda camps that didnt exist? That bans assebblies nd spies on groups and taunts kooks like Branch davidians into reactionary violence?

    Mind you whild i admire the US constitution they have a problem understanding how religious schools in Ireland are a constitutional right as do the french. Yoiu have to understannd the french history is one of atheistic terror and purges and the US constitution was a compromise of other State constitutions which did support religion but the US did not want sectarian wars of catholic and protestant. But whild some of he framing father s were atheist most werent and all drew on the natural law enshrined in 1500 years of christianity.
    Similarly, I have no problem with you keeping to yourself about your personal beliefs and not trying to insist others accommodate them. I also have no problem with you arguing that your beliefs are true, and have no problem with myself and others telling you your beliefs are false.

    sorry but the constitution protects my personal right to send my kids to an ethos school
    should i so wish. If you dont like that then tough! Of course if you can get 30 parents together and are prepared to put in some altruistic work yourself -atheists almost never are - the state will also support your children in an atheist school. None exist and I suspect if any atheist schools ever do they will be as sucessful as atheist countries.
    You are not making any sense. You said all that was needed was the claim that "X is a better way of life.". Now you are claiming that you actually need oppression, which was my point all along.

    unless you believe in atheism it is unlikely you will act in promoting it.
    How does this show that atheism, in the context of a secular pluralist society, will result in atrocities?

    Atheism in the context of not promoting or not believing in atheism probably wont result in atrocities.


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  • #2281
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    ISAW wrote: »
    No i cant because Norway is a State constitutionally rooted in Christianity so the first half of your question is in error. Norway does follow religion and believe in God.

    The statistics demonstrate otherwise. When asked Do you believe there is a god only 32% answered.
    ISAW wrote: »
    I never claimed a country not believing in god would automatically commit atrocities. I believe they would start down a slippery slope and eventually when the atheism is promoted nationally and if "there is no god" becomes socially/legally/constitutionally enshrined -pun intended- then they would start on the atrocity route.

    So Communism then. A non-believing country by itself (eg Norway) will not start down a slippery slope, it is only when a doctrine like Communism that mandates enforced anti-theism, that you would be worried.

    Well why did you say that at the start. I don't think anyone here thinks Communism is a good idea, and I think everyone would be worried about the path a country would be going down if it adopted Communism.

    But why do you keep going on about atheism then when you really mean Communism?


  • #2282
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    ISAW wrote: »
    As an anti authoritarian I have no problems with that. Of course heathens and heretics would have to leave christianity f they say the trinity for example was not true. But i hope that does not open the door to moving off topic into sectarian discussions rather than the goods or ills of christianity in society as opposed to atheism in society.

    I would see no reason (other than posters being sectarian) why that should happen.

    Btw, the topic of this thread is not about "the goods or ills of christianity in society as opposed to atheism in society". It is for Atheist/Christian debates in general, including the existence of God. Unfortunately the thread has been derailed for many pages into a blind alley that seems to hinge on posters talking past each other with wildly differing interpretations of surveys.


  • #2283
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    PDN wrote: »
    I would see no reason (other than posters being sectarian) why that should happen.

    Nor would i. Which is why Im sure you will ensure it doesnt.
    Btw, the topic of this thread is not about "the goods or ills of christianity in society as opposed to atheism in society". It is for Atheist/Christian debates in general, including the existence of God.

    Yes and the topic of this sub thread is more focused i.e . not a waffle general point but the more specific element of how belief in Christianity in particular compares to atheism with respect to the implications that might have for society; And as you stated you don't see why that should be sidelined. If of course you want to get into sectarian debates about atheism or sectarian debates about protestants versus Catholics etc. i would suggest that though they are covered under the general atheist or christian debates they are bese suited to another thread elsewhere.

    I intend sticking to atheism as clearly defined by peer reviewed literature and as clearly accepted by atheists in the A&A forum and intend to discuss it in relation to Christianity in society. I don't see why I should be forced to make that any broader. do you?
    Unfortunately the thread has been derailed for many pages into a blind alley that seems to hinge on posters talking past each other with wildly differing interpretations of surveys.

    1. It isn't a blind alley it is a focused issue I am nailing down
    2. It isn't an interpretation - the literature is clear on it -Norway isnt 70% atheist! No report says it is and it is a disingenuous interpretation to claim, the academics producing the report were claiming Norway to be 70% atheist!
    It seems quite clear that fudging that issue with "secular" and shifting the burden all sorts of other greying of the agenda does not remove the clearly incorrect claim, that Norway is a 70% atheist country which the "Russel's Teapot" cartoon is clearly claiming and which it is also claiming economic and other stats which are also incorrect and making a play hat atheism is a good for society -which is CENTRAL to the discussion i was addressing and not off track at all!


  • #2284
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Zombrex wrote: »
    The statistics demonstrate otherwise. When asked Do you believe there is a god only 32% answered.

    32% answered yes

    which means 68% in that survey didnt answer yes
    Which does NOT mean 68% are therefore ALL atheist!


    And the % of atheist near single digits is supported by other surveys!
    So Communism then.

    cuba is communist and not anti theist.
    china is communist and was atheistic and a totl mess but relaxed tis anti religion stance. It then began to prosper!
    A non-believing country by itself (eg Norway) will not start down a slippery slope, it is only when a doctrine like Communism that mandates enforced anti-theism, that you would be worried.

    Not all communists demand anti theism. All anti theism have atheism as a central slogan.
    The non atheistic communists can get along quite well and contribute to society. Only the atheistic ones make a mess of it. how come that?
    Well why did you say that at the start. I don't think anyone here thinks Communism is a good idea, and I think everyone would be worried about the path a country would be going down if it adopted Communism.

    Monks in a monestry adopt communism. Christianity would assert any political system could work if the people had decent moral standards and values. where does atheism supply such values? That it the central point!
    It dos not matter if it is Marxist capitalist Monarchist etc. if people are fair and just. Atheism does not supply justice. Christianity promotes a just society.
    You of course think that relativists like you can make up values and morals to suit yourselves.

    But why do you keep going on about atheism then when you really mean Communism?

    I dont! Non communist atheistic communities - e.g. North Korea -are atrocious
    Communist countries which are not atheistic are not as bad as the atheistic genocidal ones.
    Communist groups can contribute to society.
    I was surprised that some atheist groups suggested by Morbert do occasionally do some good work but not in the name of or because of atheism -unlike christian groups who did it because of Christianity. whenever groups do things because of atheism or to assist atheism only bad things seem to happen.


  • #2285
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Came across this reference for the clerical child abuse thered where aniother paper is mentioned in relation to female child sex abusers.

    i mention it here because of the paper beginning on page 141

    http://www.psihq.ie/IJP%2029%20V3%20master.pdf#page=109

    Hampson, P.J.
    Psychology and religion: Continuing an interrupted conversation

    Id be paricularly interested in views on this:
    http://knol.google.com/k/richard-dawkins-the-god-delusion-terry-eagleton-lunging-flailing-mispunching#
    Terry Eagleton: Lunging Flailing Mispunching. review of The God Delusion of Richard Dawkins.


  • #2286
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    ISAW are you saying that if Pol Pot Stalin Mao Lenin et al believed in anything other than atheism, shamanism christianity, spirit-worship, whatever , that history would have been different ?

    You agree that in the various Norway surveys only around the 30 % mark classified themselves as believing in a God - correct ? How then can you classify that as christian ? Just because the constitution say so ?


    Clould I have an answer on the child slapping also please ?


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  • #2287
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    And the fairy tales, I want to know about the censorship of fairy tails and how this particular American Christian trait has anything to do with the 'atheist agenda'


  • #2288
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    marienbad wrote: »
    ISAW are you saying that if Pol Pot Stalin Mao Lenin et al believed in anything other than atheism, shamanism christianity, spirit-worship, whatever , that history would have been different ?

    for the umpteenth time!

    I am not arguing based on "what if"!
    The lesson from history is there.
    ALL the regimes who promoted "there is no god" ALL of them were atrocious!
    Few of the christian ones were.

    That is history. It isnt an alternative history but fairly much the accepted history.
    If you dont accept it then feel free to produce lists of Christian atrocious regimes from ythe mlast 2000 years and lists of "there is no god" regimes which were not atrocious.
    You agree that in the various Norway surveys only around the 30 % mark classified themselves as believing in a God - correct ?

    Wrong! i agree that in one eurobarometer survey 32% of adults surveyed said they believed in a God. In various surveys atheism is closer to single digit percentages but Ill settle with around 15%. this by the way is HUGE by international standards as atheism is usually in the lower single digit percentages.

    If you consider Buddhism -a religion -atheist then that is another matter. But as it happens in china and indeed in Norway catholicism is growing faster than atheism. ther is also Islam and paganism.
    How then can you classify that as christian ? Just because the constitution say so ?

    Please pay attention!

    Atheist is already defined.
    Atheist country is majority atheism at the very least.
    Norway is not 50% plus atheist!

    Atheistic is elements of atheism promoted in the state
    Norway is notthat
    The opposite i.e elements of christianity promoted in the state is a christian cuntry
    Like Norway where ther is a christian church promoted in the constitution.

    The Country could separate church and state and still be majority christian however.
    Clould I have an answer on the child slapping also please ?

    Look up "liberal agenda" and read through the Labour Party conference motions.


  • #2289
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    ISAW wrote: »
    In addition to mainstream religions There are polytheists pagans shamanists agnostics and other NONES Atheists are a tiny percentage.
    people in America who do not believe in God or gods are not the same as
    all people in the USA outside the group of "people who believe in god or gods"

    you try to classify all thse in Norway not answering YES to "Do you believe in a god" as atheist. they arent! Even then several other surveys contradict your 70% atheist clai,m fo Norway.

    Norway isnt 70% atheist!

    Japan - secular democracy with over 90% religious adherence

    But according to you this is all atheist?

    according to you Shinto and Buddhism = atheism? The word Shinto means "Way of the Gods" The Shink part Kami are defined in English as "spirits", "essences" or "deities".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto

    Ther are several in the nineteenth and twentieth century spanning about 100 years between them about 5-10% of the time since christianity became established.
    If you call Bhuddism -not shinto-atheism then you can add in various Middle age and ancient chinese regimes. bringing the yeqrs spanned to several hundred years compared to say 1700 for christianity. It can be regarded as a valid and reliable correlation!

    gain it is a published report on American Nones by trinity college and found on the Us official site for such stats. you however have your personal opinion.
    http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/files/2011/08/NONES_08.pdf

    pageii
    The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2008 is a random digit dialed (RDD) survey of a nationally representative sample of 54,461 adults. Of those, 7,047 are Nones, or individuals who responded to the question: What is your religion, if any? with “none,” “atheist,” “agnostic,” “secular,” or “humanist.”
    The sampling error for the full ARIS 2008 is +/- 0.31%. For the No Religion sub-sample, the
    sampling error is +/- 2.38%.

    page 11 defines atheist under Figure 1.13
    Regarding the existence of God, do you think…?

    There is no such thing = Atheist = 2% of US adults!

    No we are not! you are claiming Norway is 70% atheist and you are trying to hide that now! It isnt! And Japan is not atheistic. Im unclear if you regqrd shinto or Bhudism as atheism; do you ?

    you are back to shifting fro,m 70% atheist -untrue
    to secular pluralist -Norway is massive majority plus church linked constitutionally to the state

    As for atheism causing anyting you picked Norway as such a country not as secular or pluaralist but as 70% atheist . Norway probably had a pagan past and for 1000 years has been christian. Incidentally Norway can be regarded as uite insular and conservative and not the progressive modernist state you paint.

    i havent ignored it. it doesnt make Norway 70% atheist no more than a hundred atheists demanding t be excommunicated makes Ireland atheist. You just cant reclassify all Lutherans or even 20% of them as atheist!

    70% are not atheist as you claimed!
    32% Answering yes to "Do you believe in a God" does not mean 70% are atheist!

    Nice try to shift the burden but you claimed it is 70% atheist!
    PDN wrote:
    Unfortunately the thread has been derailed for many pages into a blind alley that seems to hinge on posters talking past each other with wildly differing interpretations of surveys.

    My objection to ISAW's statements is a simple one. He is implying that, if you don't believe in God or gods, or if a population as a whole does not believe in God or gods, they will commit atrocities. Disbelief in God or gods causes atrocities, in other words. If ISAW wishes to define atheism as something other than a lack of belief in God or gods, I have no objections other than to say it is a silly exercise that does nothing but confuse the issue. For example, he has defined atheism as materialist pro-Totalitarianism and extreme agrarian socialism. He says Norway is not a predominantly atheist country because they are secular-pluralists who do not want to enshrine atheism as a way of life, compulsory or otherwise, and because they are not all materialists, and because they are not all gnostics/certain. Under such a definition, I am not an atheist.

    ISAW, I tender this article to "guide" you in the way you use the word atheism. Also, to refute the idea that, even historically, atheism in society caused atrocities.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
    I am suspiscious but as I have stated i cant formally logically prove it . All i can say in the absence of showing a mechanism is history shows all atheistic regimes were atrocious and in the absence of a theory of microbes and disease John Snow could only say he believed cholera spread through water:

    And I can show a common mechanism across those regimes: Anti-clericalism, couple with the oppression of human rights and callous experimentation with economies.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Snow_%28physician%29
    . The germ theory of disease was not to be created until 1861[citation needed], so he was unaware of the mechanism by which the disease was transmitted, but evidence led him to believe that it was not due to breathing foul air.

    Really a 100% correlation is insignificant?

    I think yu might me the sample populmation of atheistic regimes is small.

    Ther are several in the nineteenth and twentieth century spanning about 100 years between them about 5-10% of the time since christianity became established.
    If you call Bhuddism -not shinto-atheism then you can add in various Middle age and ancient chinese regimes. bringing the yeqrs spanned to several hundred years compared to say 1700 for christianity. It can be regarded as a valid and reliable correlation!

    Show me these valid correlation calculations.
    AHA! But back to basic statistical principles§
    NON totalitarian regimes also caused atrocities so totalitarianism was no common to these atrocities
    Also NOT ALL christian regimes caused atrocities but a few did indeed cause them
    However ALL atheistic regimes ALWAYS caused atrocities

    I am not making a statistical argument. The way totalitarianism causes atrocities is well understood. The problems with North Korea, for example, are easily identifiable, and completely unrelated to atheism.
    Yes you did
    contradicting yourself! You claim to ignore it and immediately follow with a comment on it.

    Your words claiming to ignore it in bold

    Followed immediately by "Trying a different strategy?" i.e. a direct comment on religion in Japan and "The "Religious, theist fundamentalists attacked subways, which is proof that atheist Japan commits atrocities." line isn't looking so good? " another direct comment on religion in Japan as a straw man or incorrect statement.

    You just stated you were IGNORING something and then immediately following that drew attention to it! You remind me of the Austin Powers self contradictory photographer waving his hand above the camera and yelling at the model "ignore this" :)

    I ignored your wrong statements about religion, and commented on your change of strategy. No contradiction on my part.
    Not by the atheists in such regimes however. And why did such regimes promote atheism and reject Christianity?

    To control who the people worship.
    Leopold didnt do it in the name of promoting Christianity. Pol pot on the other hand specifically promoted atheism.

    And?
    Maybe they d so to a lesser extent because they are closer to the truth and not atheist or not without some absolute guiding values?

    What?! Firstly, those regimes you keep mentioning are absolutist regimes. Secondly, belief in the supernatural, since it is closer to belief in God, somehow imbues them with a subconscious power to be a healthy human being? Really?!
    And we should accept your orders or your opinions because?...

    That sentence makes no sense.
    This would be the US that has the Patriot Act and Invaded Iraq for WMD that werent there to bring freedom to a million people by killing them and removing al Khyda camps that didnt exist? That bans assebblies nd spies on groups and taunts kooks like Branch davidians into reactionary violence?

    Yes, the US where secular pluralism is constantly under attack by right wing religious fundamentalists, where the great motto "Out of Many, One" was replaced by the inane "In God we Trust". the US with an ex-president that went into Iraq because God told him to.
    Mind you whild i admire the US constitution they have a problem understanding how religious schools in Ireland are a constitutional right as do the french. Yoiu have to understannd the french history is one of atheistic terror and purges and the US constitution was a compromise of other State constitutions which did support religion but the US did not want sectarian wars of catholic and protestant. But whild some of he framing father s were atheist most werent and all drew on the natural law enshrined in 1500 years of christianity.

    sorry but the constitution protects my personal right to send my kids to an ethos school
    should i so wish. If you dont like that then tough! Of course if you can get 30 parents together and are prepared to put in some altruistic work yourself -atheists almost never are - the state will also support your children in an atheist school. None exist and I suspect if any atheist schools ever do they will be as sucessful as atheist countries.

    People (including me) don't want atheist schools. We want multi-denominational schools, which the government is finally starting to initiate. If you want to send your kids to Catholic school, fine, so long as that school is not sectarian, and so long as you don't expect the government to pay for any religious indoctrination. I went to a Christian Brothers School, for example, and it in no way established Catholicism as the One True Faith(TM). One of my religion teachers was even an atheist. So I have no problem with "ethos" schools.
    unless you believe in atheism it is unlikely you will act in promoting it.

    So?
    Atheism in the context of not promoting or not believing in atheism probably wont result in atrocities.

    Atheism in the context of promoting (through argument and prudent discussion) and believing in atheism also on't result in atrocities.


  • #2290
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    And the fairy tales, I want to know about the censorship of fairy tails and how this particular American Christian trait has anything to do with the 'atheist agenda'

    http://72point.com/coverage/fairytales-too-scary-for-children
    Sorry Liberal/anticatholic/pro abortion/leftie/maoist/non exhaustive list agenda groups which I would think correlae closer to atheists than to religious people. correlate means a tendency not a cause and effect 100% true proof.


  • #2291
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    ISAW;
    Look up "liberal agenda" and read through the Labour Party conference motions.
    What the actual liberal agenda?
    http://www.liberalagenda.org/

    This labor party policy?
    http://www.labour.ie/policy/listing/12983727153819574.html

    Not seeing the connection.


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  • #2292
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    ISAW wrote: »
    http://72point.com/coverage/fairytales-too-scary-for-children
    Sorry Liberal/anticatholic/pro abortion/leftie/maoist/non exhaustive list agenda groups which I would think correlae closer to atheists than to religious people. correlate means a tendency not a cause and effect 100% true proof.
    The survey of 2000 adults was specially commissioned to mark the launch of the hit US drama GRIMM, which starts tonight at 9pm on Watch, and sees six gritty episodes based on traditional fairytales.

    ROTFLMAO
    God ISAW you make my day sometimes. :D:D:D:D

    Right back at ya.
    http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1033/1033_01.asp


  • #2293
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Morbert wrote: »
    My objection to ISAW's statements is a simple one. He is implying that, if you don't believe in God or gods, or if a population as a whole does not believe in God or gods, they will commit atrocities. Disbelief in God or gods causes atrocities, in other words. ...

    Has a tendency to yes. Based on the populaztion of 100% atrocuious "there is no god" regimes as compared to the tiny percentage of christian atrocities in societies wtih 90% plus christian membership.
    He says Norway is not a predominantly atheist country because they are secular-pluralists who do not want to enshrine atheism as a way of life, compulsory or otherwise, and because they are not all materialists, and because they are not all gnostics/certain. Under such a definition, I am not an atheist.
    I could care less what you call yourself! My problem is your clai, that Norwat is 70% atheist!
    It is just not true! You know it is not true but you cant accept your cartoon fantasy is wrong!
    Yu claimed Norway is 70% atheist based on a cartoon and you cant support it. All you can do is keep reposting a single survey from 2005 where the 32% percent answered yes to "do you believe in a god" You then use your cartoon fantasy reasoning try to pretend that mans Norway is 70% atheist.


    you have been shown Norways own stats from 2011 which show

    Growth in non state Christian religion 2005-2011 plus 50 000
    http://www.ssb.no/trosamf_en/tab-2011-12-06-03-en.html

    Growth in non christian religion 2005-10 plus 102,000
    http://www.ssb.no/trosamf_en/tab-2011-12-06-01-en.html
    Islam plus 33 000
    http://www.ssb.no/trosamf_en/tab-2011-12-06-02-en.html
    other religions plus 3 000

    Norwegian Humanist Association not all atheist some agnostic etc. largest in the world =60 000 members


  • #2294
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    ROTFLMAO
    God ISAW you make my day sometimes. :D:D:D:D

    Right back at ya.
    http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1033/1033_01.asp

    I noticed "the survey" but didnt check who diud it or the source.
    If it was US based Im happy to admit that.

    I still stand by the element of pro abortion/atheist/maoist/ trots/ ex SFWP/ex TCD militant and so on in Ireland who are in politics today.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0206/1224311335106.html

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/64412?search_text=bacik&comment_order=desc&userlanguage=ga&save_prefs=true
    She was against Nice then she was for Nice.

    She was against coalition now she's for coalition.

    She opposes the neoliberal aspects of the new Euro Constitution but she wont oppose it in a referendum.

    She's against the occupation of Iraq by the US but not if it has a UN figleaf.

    She doesnt like Blair but she won't have a problem working with her British Labour colleagues in the PES.

    She thinks the Provo's are to the right of Labout cos they accepted a donation from Coca Killa but she's forgotten Ethna Fitzgeralds corporate lunch with Ruairi Quinn.

    She concerned about 'ordinary people' but she had nothing to say about the Bin Tax struggle, even when 'ordinary people' were jailed.

    And so on and so on....

    In fact the only issue that I can think of where Ivana has displayed principle and integrity has been that of abortion where she has unambigiouly advocated womens right to control their own bodies.
    not a left candidate but a liberal one, and the Labour Party tacitly acknowledge this when they target all her propaganda at a middle class audience i.e. the puke-inducing plug in saturdays Irish Times supplement.
    [/quote}
    Ran as Labour stayed in Labour and Ran as independent then took labout whip to get to be the Leader in the house. Opposed double jobbing teqchers promoted socialmism and the small guy and gets two salaries -one as a teacher- and probably the non taxable childrens allowance added on to them. Keeps the Barrister practice open too. so where are the values?

    Oh - did I mention ...atheist?


  • #2295
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    ISAW wrote: »
    I noticed "the survey" but didnt check who diud it or the source.
    If it was US based Im happy to admit that.

    In case i was not clear or you think i am being snide or hedging -if i presented a US survey as European I was wrong about that
    thank you for pointing out the correction.


  • #2296
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    ISAW wrote: »
    In case i was not clear or you think i am being snide or hedging -if i presented a US survey as European I was wrong about that
    thank you for pointing out the correction.

    No not at all, I wasn't commenting on the location of the survey, just the fact that it was as promo for a tv show.


  • #2297
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    ISAW wrote: »
    In case i was not clear or you think i am being snide or hedging -if i presented a US survey as European I was wrong about that
    thank you for pointing out the correction.

    Sorry ISAW - help me out here, particularly as you brought it up , I still don't see the child slapping issue in all of this this.

    Are you opposed to a ban on it or what, and what has it got to do with anything we are discussing ?


  • #2298
    cake carrier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭cake carrier


    What do you all think... of this article... on the EXISTENCE OF GOD...

    http://www.jimmyfungus.com/2012/02/does-god-exist-mysteries-of-universe.html ( http://jimmyfungus.com/2012/02/does-god-exist-mysteries-of-universe.html )


    I am...





    honestly...



    curious.


  • #2299
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Morbert wrote: »

    And I can show a common mechanism across those regimes: Anti-clericalism, couple with the oppression of human rights and callous experimentation with economies.
    Effects are not causes. the Holocaust was not a cause it was te effect of naziism.
    Oppression of human rights is not a cause it is an effect.
    Anti clericalism and anti religion measures are caused by being against religion. It is unlikely a religion would be anti religion although it does hazppen in rare circumstances. anti religious groups are atheist . they are anti religious because they are atheist and not the other way around.
    Show me these valid correlation calculations.

    Tell you what i dont make such a claim anymore.
    It is unsupported by statistics.
    My idea that all atheistic regimes committed atrocities and that there is not 1% didnt but 100% of those "there is no god" regimes committed atrocities with no exceptions whatsoever in the whole of history is just totally unsupported in spite on no one showing even one "ther is no god" regime that did not commit atrocities.
    I might be true I might not be and pigs might fly.
    I am not making a statistical argument. The way totalitarianism causes atrocities is well understood. The problems with North Korea, for example, are easily identifiable, and completely unrelated to atheism.
    that makes two of us.
    Im not making one about the liberal agenda either. We can forge it exists. it remains an unproven concept.
    I ignored your wrong statements about religion, and commented on your change of strategy. No contradiction on my part.

    I cant be bothered to restate how yu stated something whichg was contradictory by the statement referring to your refusal to refer to something such as ... and then going to do just that!
    And YES I am aware of the contradiction i just made in the last statement. In my case it is intentional and is called "irony".
    To control who the people worship.

    In atheistic societies they dont always worship a non god real person.
    And even non atheistic societies who worship non god real people can sometimes actually build things.
    And?

    Atheistic= in the name of atheism
    Christian = in the name or along the lines of Christ

    Leopold was not a christian controlled/authority/rules regime or in any way along the lines of "this is how we expredd belief in christ"

    Atheistic regimes ARE alon,g the lines of "this is how society is better because of atheism which we promote as a core value" Leopold didnt promote christianity or represent it.
    What?! Firstly, those regimes you keep mentioning are absolutist regimes. Secondly, belief in the supernatural, since it is closer to belief in God, somehow imbues them with a subconscious power to be a healthy human being? Really?!

    first not all absolutist regimes are total failures. the Aztecs, celts, had bad things but good things also. the atheistic regimes didnt have anything positive.
    Second christian theology is clear on the idea that non christians have varying degrees of being "closer to god". You are aware of the concept since you just used it above.
    That sentence makes no sense.
    i agree
    The fact that i question the acceptance of the concept that we should in your opinion accept your orders because you have told us all that a belief is speculative and unreasonable based on your opinions that it is speculative and unreasonable probably does not make any sense to you.
    Yes, the US where secular pluralism is constantly under attack by right wing religious fundamentalists, where the great motto "Out of Many, One" was replaced by the inane "In God we Trust". the US with an ex-president that went into Iraq because God told him to.

    Et Pluribus unum replaced earlier US constitutions
    http://jcs.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/4/753.extract

    religion was supported by tax money in nine of the thirteen original colonies
    Church-state Issues in America Today: Religion and government
    By Ann W. Duncan, Steven L. Jones
    footnote 91 page

    The important point was religion could not be used as an excuse to violate civil law or to pose a threat to the community or others.
    People (including me) don't want atheist schools. We want multi-denominational schools, which the government is finally starting to initiate.

    the government will initiate it because the itrish constitution protects the rights of families to have Catholic Or islamic or even atheist schools should they so wish. the church is also happy to help communities -yes even atheist communities! "There is no god" societies however spend their time attacking religion.
    If you want to send your kids to Catholic school, fine, so long as that school is not sectarian, and so long as you don't expect the government to pay for any religious indoctrination.

    the constitutional protection of religion or the wish to be a dissenter is established. It dates from before the US cobnstitution and indeed it was such values assisted in framing all modern constitutions.
    I went to a Christian Brothers School, for example, and it in no way established Catholicism as the One True Faith(TM). One of my religion teachers was even an atheist. So I have no problem with "ethos" schools.

    I also went to christian Brothers and if their management wanted not to employ an atheist I think they have every right to. I also respect that a Muslim woman having a baby can refuse a male doctor or a male midwife. People are entitled to make such choices.
    So?

    So where is the long list of non atheists promoting atheism? If "X is a better way of life." is needed then the belief that "x is a better way" must already exist. now given x=atheism it is unlikely a non atheist would believe in x isnt it?
    Atheism in the context of promoting (through argument and prudent discussion) and believing in atheism also on't result in atrocities.

    Ill agree to some extent and grant you a personal exception -a dispensation if you will? Your argument however that 70% of Norway is certainly atheist IS atrocious :)

    I think this has now been done to death -no pun intended- so Ill leave it for now.


  • #2300
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    cake carrier wrote: »
    What do you all think... of this article... on the EXISTENCE OF GOD...

    http://www.jimmyfungus.com/2012/02/does-god-exist-mysteries-of-universe.html ( http://jimmyfungus.com/2012/02/does-god-exist-mysteries-of-universe.html )


    I am...





    honestly...



    curious.

    First vid atheist dude; Fail, a soul cant exist without a body.
    Second vid Christian dude; Fail, I mean whats he on?
    Third vid cute guy; Fail, brain dead
    Fourth vid stoner; Fail, stoner
    Fifth vid evil guy; LOL
    Sixth vid Cris Humphry; Win, he gets it.
    Last vid, surly kid; I duno but If I were his mom....???
    Good to see your interested, keep asking and see where it goes


  • #2301
    cake carrier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭cake carrier


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    First vid atheist dude; Fail, a soul cant exist without a body.
    Second vid Christian dude; Fail, I mean whats he on?
    Third vid cute guy; Fail, brain dead
    Fourth vid stoner; Fail, stoner
    Fifth vid evil guy; LOL
    Sixth vid Cris Humphry; Win, he gets it.
    Last vid, surly kid; I duno but If I were his mom....???
    Good to see your interested, keep asking and see where it goes

    YES!!! Way to go Chris Humphrey...EPIC WIN!!


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