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Ground Zero Mosque

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  • #542
    Byron85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Byron85


    Palmach wrote: »
    rying to portray opponents as bigots is standard left wing boilerplate designed to cut off all debate. Well it won't work.

    Well considering your username and the posts you've made, in your case, it would be a safe assumption to make no?


  • #543
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Palmach wrote: »
    I can only speak for myself. I think all citizens in a freee society should have the right to build places of worship as long as their use breaks no laws. The Islamic Cultural Centre and Mosque which is the topic of this thread is an insensitive gesture that should not go ahead. Trying to portray opponents as bigots is standard left wing boilerplate designed to cut off all debate. Well it won't work.

    They are against the centre because they associate it and the 9/11 bombers (though oddly forgeting their muslim victims). Thus its the very definition of bigotry. Jimmy Carter and and Fred Phelps are both christians. Not only that, but they're both members of independent baptist congregations. Are they the same?

    You might get back to me on these two questions here.....
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67612026&postcount=519


  • #544
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Palmach wrote: »
    Lets stick to the topic which is the proposed Islamic centre and Mosque near Ground Zero. It should not go ahead. Parts of the planes on 9/11 didn't fall on the places you have mentioned.
    Why try and exclude those protests from this one exactly?

    As you have said just now, those other Mosque locations were not involved in 9/11. So why are those protests occurring? If you believe Park Place is an insensitive place to locate an Islamic Community Center, what do you find insensitive about the proposed locations in Tennessee, Wisconsin, and California?

    This whole 9/11 airplane debris argument is a bunch of wash, by the way.


  • #545
    demonspawn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭demonspawn


    Palmach wrote: »
    I can only speak for myself. I think all citizens in a freee society should have the right to build places of worship as long as their use breaks no laws. The Islamic Cultural Centre and Mosque which is the topic of this thread is an insensitive gesture that should not go ahead.

    Do you think the 9/11 memorial they plan on building alongside the mosque is also an insensitive gesture?
    Trying to portray opponents as bigots is standard left wing boilerplate designed to cut off all debate. Well it won't work.

    There really is no debate. Not allowing the community center, which also includes a mosque, is unconstitutional according to the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights. But then the Bill of Rights has been used as a doormat for years now.


  • #546
    super_furry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,365 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    The US has just changed its bogeymen from Communists to Muslims. The level of hysteria over this, in a country where freedom of religion is supposed to be enshrined in the constitution, is terrifying.


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  • #547
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Palmach wrote: »
    I can only speak for myself. I think all citizens in a freee society should have the right to build places of worship as long as their use breaks no laws. The Islamic Cultural Centre and Mosque which is the topic of this thread is an insensitive gesture that should not go ahead. Trying to portray opponents as bigots is standard left wing boilerplate designed to cut off all debate. Well it won't work.

    Quite a few of the oppenents are bigots, as can be seen by the many examples posted already in this thread. Its not some "left wing conspiracy" but rather the words and actions of the oppenents which show them to be bigots.

    The Cultural center is not insensitive, as the whole controversy has been ginned up by far right groups in the US, and there are the exact same group protesting Cultural centers and Mosques elsehwere. Plenty of people who are complaining about it now, were fine with it a few months ago, notably Fox News etc.


  • #548
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Palmach


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    But then you say:

    So you're attaching additional criteria to your 1st statement?

    It reminds me of the Holy Cross school dispute in NI.

    The Islamic Centre should proceed. It is a civil rights issue.

    Read the following slowly please..........

    They have the right to build the centre but the question is should they build it?. The placement of this Mosque upsets many people and an organisation dedicated to bridge building, interfaith dialogue and integrating Muslims into America would, one would think, not plough ahead with something so divisive. When there were plans for a Carmelite Convent near Auschwitz Jews kicked up and the Pope of the time JP II got it moved. That is called being sensitive. Fully two thirds of Americans oppose this Mosque so the decent thing, the interfaith thing would be to move it.

    Again I have no problem with any other Mosque anywhere else just with the location of this Mosque.


  • #549
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Palmach


    wes wrote: »
    Quite a few of the oppenents are bigots, as can be seen by the many examples posted already in this thread. Its not some "left wing conspiracy" but rather the words and actions of the oppenents which show them to be bigots.

    The Cultural center is not insensitive, as the whole controversy has been ginned up by far right groups in the US, and there are the exact same group protesting Cultural centers and Mosques elsehwere. Plenty of people who are complaining about it now, were fine with it a few months ago, notably Fox News etc.

    Ah yes the ol' far right trick. A dog whistle for the right on folk. You strike me as someone who is totally insensitive to any differing view except your own. Fine, if that is the type you are, and judging by the inability of some on here to see the viewpoint of a lot of upset people, you are not alone just don't go around smearing people who don't share your beliefs.


  • #550
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Palmach


    demonspawn wrote: »
    Do you think the 9/11 memorial they plan on building alongside the mosque is also an insensitive gesture?

    What a stupid question?

    There really is no debate. Not allowing the community center, which also includes a mosque, is unconstitutional according to the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights. But then the Bill of Rights has been used as a doormat for years now.

    From a legal point of view there is no debate yes that is true. But should it is another thing. I am sure legally you could open a an adult shop beside a primary school. But should you is the thing? In many states you can carry a gun but if you did beside a children's playground people would object. People object to things that are legal all the time and accommodations have to be found.


  • #551
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Byron85 wrote: »
    Well considering your username and the posts you've made, in your case, it would be a safe assumption to make no?

    And only an idiot would make such an assumption.


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  • #552
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Palmach wrote: »
    From a legal point of view there is no debate yes that is true. But should it is another thing. I am sure legally you could open a an adult shop beside a primary school. But should you is the thing? In many states you can carry a gun but if you did beside a children's playground people would object. People object to things that are legal all the time and accommodations have to be found.
    You really don't understand law.


  • #553
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,767 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Palmach wrote: »
    Lets stick to the topic which is the proposed Islamic centre and Mosque near Ground Zero. It should not go ahead. Parts of the planes on 9/11 didn't fall on the places you have mentioned.

    It would appear that the New York City Mayor believes the Ground Zero Mosque issue sends a message well beyond his city, and that this message has consequences for America, not just NYC:
    Mayor Bloomberg reiterated his support of the mosque's chosen location.

    Singling out a Muslim guest whose son died on 9/11 and the Muslim parents of a soldier serving overseas, he said blocking the mosque "would compromise our commitment to fighting terror with freedom."

    "We would send a signal around the world that Muslim Americans may be equal in the eyes of the law, but separate in the eyes of their countrymen," he said.

    "And we would hand a valuable propaganda tool to terrorist recruiters, who spread the fallacy that America is at war with Islam."

    Source: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/24/2010-08-24_archbishop_dolan_talks_ground_zero_mosque_with_gov_paterson_has_no_strong_feelin.html

    Is the Ground Zero Mosque the tip of the iceberg, symbolic of something larger in America that goes well beyond a small piece of real estate 2 blocks from Ground Zero?
    super_furry wrote: »
    The US has just changed its bogeymen from Communists to Muslims. The level of hysteria over this, in a country where freedom of religion is supposed to be enshrined in the constitution, is terrifying.


  • #554
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Palmach wrote: »
    From a legal point of view there is no debate yes that is true. But should it is another thing. I am sure legally you could open a an adult shop beside a primary school.

    I'm failing to see the connection between a place of religous worship and a pornography outlet beside a school for very young children........

    You have yet to get back to me on some outstanding questions, btw.


  • #555
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Overheal wrote: »
    You really don't understand law.

    Whatever :rolleyes:


  • #556
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm failing to see the connection between a place of religous worship and a pornography outlet beside a school for very young children........

    That you failed to see it doesn't surprise me.
    You have yet to get back to me on some outstanding questions, btw.

    No I don't. I have answered the questions but you keep twisting the replies


  • #557
    demonspawn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭demonspawn


    Palmach wrote: »
    In many states you can carry a gun but if you did beside a children's playground people would object.

    Why would they object? If it's concealed then nobody would know. It's illegal to walk around waving a gun in the air, even in Texas. Oh wait, that's right. The children would be at risk because we all know guns just fire at random times.

    It's a bit like how nobody would have know about this mosque if it weren't for the hysterical media coverage it's received.


  • #558
    sceptre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,607 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    There's a continuing element of personalisation of posts here and insult-trading, which anyone who has read the charter will be aware is not permitted. Discontinue that please, civility is cheap.

    /mod


  • #559
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Palmach wrote: »
    Ah yes the ol' far right trick. A dog whistle for the right on folk.

    Hardly a trick. Describing the instigators as far right is prefectly correct.
    Palmach wrote: »
    You strike me as someone who is totally insensitive to any differing view except your own.

    What are even talking about? Its a message board and I am just expressing my opinion on things, with in the rules of the forum.
    Palmach wrote: »
    Fine, if that is the type you are, and judging by the inability of some on here to see the viewpoint of a lot of upset people, you are not alone just don't go around smearing people who don't share your beliefs.

    I am not smearing anyone, and it pretty clear from all the other protests, which feature many of the same people behind them, that this is about hatred. We have seen many example of this hatred from the opponents on this thread already, and it look like some people are now acting on it:

    NYC cabbie allegedly stabbed for being Muslim

    Seem very clear to me where the people who ginned up the protests are coming from. Now I am sure some opponents aren't bigots (as I said before I am sure not all of them a bigots), but a great many are exactly that, and they are protesting all over the US.


  • #560
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Palmach wrote: »
    That you failed to see it doesn't surprise me.

    Then you might explain it to me.
    Palmach wrote: »
    No I don't. I have answered the questions but you keep twisting the replies

    Would you tell me whether or not you recognise the difference between a Sufi and a Wahabi muslim?


  • #561
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Nodin wrote: »
    Then you might explain it to me.

    As Fats Waller said "if you have to ask you ain't got it"

    Would you tell me whether or not you recognise the difference between a Sufi and a Wahabi muslim?

    I have answered that question several times please check back and stop constantly badgering me.


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  • #562
    demonspawn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭demonspawn


    Nodin wrote: »
    Would you tell me whether or not you recognise the difference between a Sufi and a Wahabi muslim?

    Everyone knows the Sufi wear towels on their head and the Wahabi wear nappies! :rolleyes:

    That was a joke by the way, I'm not a bigot. lol


  • #563
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Palmach


    wes wrote: »
    Hardly a trick. Describing the instigators as far right is prefectly correct.

    It isn't. It is a snide smear designed to obviate the need to discuss the issues raised. Far right means card carrying Nazi/ skinhead someone who is clearly racist. No need to discuss the issues.


    I am not smearing anyone, and it pretty clear from all the other protests, which feature many of the same people behind them, that this is about hatred. We have seen many example of this hatred from the opponents on this thread already, and it look like some people are now acting on it:.

    You are a left wing smear merchant in my opinion.


  • #564
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Palmach wrote: »
    As Fats Waller said "if you have to ask you ain't got it".

    I finde it odd that you offer a post you refuse to explain.
    Palmach wrote: »
    I have answered that question several times please check back and stop constantly badgering me.

    When asked outright whether you consider all muslims the same you say "no", but all the rest of your posts content seems to indicate otherwise. I'm attempting to understand this seeming contradiction.


  • #565
    sceptre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,607 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    There's a previous warning up the page about not personalising the discussion or insulting fellow forum members. For those who choose to ignore it, you're facing a forum ban. Your call. A bit of calmdown from the rest of you would also help, this isn't a poke the other guy with the pointy needle forum. There's more than one of you in it.

    /mod


  • #566
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Overheal wrote: »
    Why try and exclude those protests from this one exactly?

    As you have said just now, those other Mosque locations were not involved in 9/11. So why are those protests occurring? If you believe Park Place is an insensitive place to locate an Islamic Community Center, what do you find insensitive about the proposed locations in Tennessee, Wisconsin, and California?

    This whole 9/11 airplane debris argument is a bunch of wash, by the way.

    ? "Not in my backyard" syndrome. I wouldn't like one in my backyard tbh.


  • #567
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Overheal wrote: »
    Genius and true.

    Yes it is true. For example, I remember explaining to my cousin that Florida is a couple hours away from NY. Lol she thought I meant by car. She was shocked when I said, no by plane. We have a completely different sense of scale.

    Similarly, a two hour drive is nothing to an American, but over here it gets you across the entire country, or the other side of Dublin.


  • #568
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Palmach wrote: »
    Ah yes the ol' far right trick. A dog whistle for the right on folk. You strike me as someone who is totally insensitive to any differing view except your own. Fine, if that is the type you are, and judging by the inability of some on here to see the viewpoint of a lot of upset people, you are not alone just don't go around smearing people who don't share your beliefs.

    I know... it's so funny. It seems the same people who preach about tolerance are just so...intolerant.


  • #569
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Palmach wrote: »
    It isn't. It is a snide smear designed to obviate the need to discuss the issues raised. Far right means card carrying Nazi/ skinhead someone who is clearly racist. No need to discuss the issues.

    The far right come in plenty of shapes and sizes and they aren't all Nazi's or skin heads as you put it. Still, all anyone has to do is look at the behaviors of the Center opponents to see that they (a lot of them) come from a place of hate. BTW, I was talking about the people who ginned up the controversy, when I mentioned the far right. I was not saying all opponents are of the far right. Of course, that simple distinction is lost on you.
    Palmach wrote: »
    You are a left wing smear merchant in my opinion.

    I don't really consider my self to be left wing, I am more to the center. Still nothing wrong with being left wing, or right wing for that matter. Only tends to be an issue, when people go to far either way.

    I am not afraid to speak my mind and call a group of bigots (again not all of them) exactly what they are. There is example after example of this bigotry, and the fact of other protests, which do involve the exact same people who stoked the controversy over the Islamic centers, are also involved in some of the protests elsewhere, kind of defeats there own claims of sensitivity to the particular area in New York, and is shown to be simple bigotry.

    Also, I have no need to smear anyone, when there own words and actions make them look bad all on there own.


  • #570
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I know... it's so funny. It seems the same people who preach about tolerance are just so...intolerant.

    You got it all wrong, we are just not PC ;).


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  • #571
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I was rude this morning; I want to justify what I said earlier about this post:
    Palmach wrote: »
    From a legal point of view there is no debate yes that is true. But should it is another thing.
    Considering law is meant to be a reflection on society this statement irks me. Society in Saudi Arabia wants to be able to stone women. The law allows for it. In contrast, our society really would never stand for such a thing, and it's illegal. Things are rarely illegal just for the pure sake of it. Read up on Prohibition: something many were against and eventually repealed. And again, alcohol is something which is illegal in many middle eastern countries.
    I am sure legally you could open a an adult shop beside a primary school. But should you is the thing?
    Legally yes, but it's extremely difficult and nigh on impossible. However, as this story points out, the club filed all of the necessary paperwork; announced the intention to open a business there; the location was not zoned; and would have required a public hearing only if they had applied for a liquor license. An extreme case, that under normal circumstances would never fly.
    In many states you can carry a gun
    In every state... See the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights. Some states just require more licensing and regulation than others.
    but if you did beside a children's playground people would object.
    Actually there's nothing wrong with No-Firearm ordinances in certain public venues, like Schools and Parks. And these are in many places already the case. Private Property owners may also restrict you from carrying a gun on their premises.
    People object to things that are legal all the time and accommodations have to be found.
    True, but in the case of this Community Centre I can't think of anything that would prohibit it. It's not even the closest thing to Ground Zero that could be considered a place of worship (even though its a lone prayer room inside a multistory building) as there is the Greek Orthodoxy Church which, as far as I can tell, is still slated to be rebuilt on the Ground Zero site itself. There are strip clubs that are closer to Ground Zero than this mosque. Tell me how you could ban this mosque by introducing new ordinance without infringing upon the First Amendment? You could hypothetically prohibit places of worship in a radius around the site, but immediately you've excluded the Greek Orthodoxy.


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