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Is Irish a Dead Language?

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Comments

  • #92
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    orourkeda wrote: »
    How can a language that the majority of us dont speak be a part of us?

    The cultural impact of the Irish language in modern Ireland is verging on the negligible

    Our Hiberno-English dialect is heavily influenced by the Irish language, in idiom and so forth


  • #93
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Our Hiberno-English dialect is heavily influenced by the Irish language, in idiom and so forth

    Much like French is heavily influenced by Latin...


  • #94
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    sdonn wrote: »
    A little extra work to keep alive a bit of heritage which is intrinsic to the whole character of this country is something every citizen of Ireland should be happy to do - and in my opinion if they're happy to cast aside something as important as what was until very recently our primary language, then they by default cast aside their right to be Irish.
    This sentiment is why I can't abide some sections of this argument. It's utter BS for a start. If it's "intrinsic to the whole character of this country" then it would be spoken by significantly more people than it is. It's quite that simple. It's intrinsic to a small proportion of the citizens of this country alright and I wouldnt like to see it die out, but this "you're not Irish if you don't speak Irish/like GAA/Irish trad music does it no favours.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #95
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Wibbs wrote: »
    "you're not Irish if you don't speak Irish/like GAA/Irish trad music does it no favours.

    You are absolutely right, Not speaking Irish dose not make you less Irish.


  • #96
    Wagon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭Wagon


    Hate the way it's taught. It's nice, it ain't dead but i could have been doing another subject i was good at in the LC instead of being taught this useless pile of tripe which cost me about 80 points. Turns out I didn't even need it in the end.

    Want to save the language? Change people's attitudes towards it. Make it an option in secondary school for the Leaving Cert. That way the people who do it will actually want to learn it, and the ones who don't can do something that will be more useful to them. It could also help their attitudes towards it in the future, and they might just decide to learn it when they're older in their own time out of personal interest.

    It doesn't help the way the attitudes of Irish speakers tend me to pretty irritating. Acting like a knob and getting pissed off when someone can't speak it (some complete prick told me i wasn't really Irish unless i could speak it) isn't going to help. It'll just get them a well deserved kick in the bollix eventually. There is nothing more irritating than an arrogant cock who snorts and insults you when you say you haven't got a clue how to speak it.


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  • #97
    Pace2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    Wibbs wrote: »
    This sentiment is why I can't abide some sections of this argument. It's utter BS for a start. If it's "intrinsic to the whole character of this country" then it would be spoken by significantly more people than it is. It's quite that simple. It's intrinsic to a small proportion of the citizens of this country alright and I wouldnt like to see it die out, but this "you're not Irish if you don't speak Irish/like GAA/Irish trad music does it no favours.
    +1. Our culture is not prescribed or static; it is organically developed by the majority of the nation, and should not be dictated to us by a minority of Gaelgoirs.

    And until someone can tell me why learning Irish is so important, without listing advantages that could be conferred by learning any non-redundant second language, and without assuming their own arbitrary view of what it means to be Irish is universal, I see no reason to continue forcing it on an apparently unwilling, uninterested audience.


  • #98
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Shenshen wrote: »
    Much like French is heavily influenced by Latin...
    Yes but French is language, Hiberno-English isn't


  • #99
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Wibbs wrote: »
    "you're not Irish if you don't speak Irish/like GAA/Irish trad music does it no favours.

    Agreed, I don't like the GAA ,I'm not too fond of Trad music either. Does not speaking Irish make you less Irish than a Gaeilgóir, of course it doesn't.

    Does speaking Irish give you a different perspective on our culture/heritage and the environment that we live in, yes it does


  • #100
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Wibbs wrote: »
    This sentiment is why I can't abide some sections of this argument. It's utter BS for a start. If it's "intrinsic to the whole character of this country" then it would be spoken by significantly more people than it is. It's quite that simple. It's intrinsic to a small proportion of the citizens of this country alright and I wouldnt like to see it die out, but this "you're not Irish if you don't speak Irish/like GAA/Irish trad music does it no favours.
    Since I learned the language I have discovered that the more nationalist the person professing knowledge of the language, the poorer their knowledge. Very good speakers just enjoy it (if they're learners) or it's their native language. Poor speakers (using English phonetics, speaking pidgin Irish consisting of directly translating English) tend to be ones going on about "our national heritage".

    That said I hope someday that the current image of the language is dropped. I hate when I tell somebody I'm learning it and they go on about some Christian brother who beat the **** out of them. I feel like I constantly have to prove I'm not secretly a member of the IRA-Republican-Christian Brother evil global network.
    Reminds me of a physicist friend of mine who gets rants about the suffering in Hiroshima when he tells people he's a physicist.


  • #101
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    "Yes. It's a language that's dead"
    the untitled user wrote: »
    does that mean everyone who speaks it is a zombie?
    You will never hear anyone speak it except on RTE. Go in to any newsagent or bookshop and see how many magazines or newspapers are in Irish, and that will answer your question. Not only is it dead, its an ugly old language. Good riddance. It was beat in to us at school.


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  • #102
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Japer wrote: »
    "Yes. It's a language that's dead"

    You will never hear anyone speak it except on RTE. Go in to any newsagent or bookshop and see how many magazines or newspapers are in Irish, and that will answer your question. Not only is it dead, its an ugly old language. Good riddance. It was beat in to us at school.


    No, Its not a dead Language, There are tens of thousands of Native Irish speakers.
    In my local Newsagent there is an Irish paper on Sale. This one:Gaelscéal

    And Foinse is in every newsagent every wednsday as part of the Indo.

    Irish isent beat into Anyone anymore, and its not a dead language.


  • #103
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Yes but French is language, Hiberno-English isn't

    So it should be kept artificially alive because a language that is influence by it isn't a language?
    :confused:


  • #104
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Shenshen wrote: »
    So it should be kept artificially alive because a language that is influence by it isn't a language?
    :confused:

    Where did you come up with that? What are you on about


  • #105
    Jamiekelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭Jamiekelly


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Real terms? Such as you not speaking it?

    Such as 90% of the country not speaking it then yes, its dead.


  • #106
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Jamiekelly wrote: »
    Such as 90% of the country not speaking it then yes, its dead.

    You're not very good at Maths are you


  • #107
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Jamiekelly wrote: »
    Such as 90% of the country not speaking it then yes, its dead.


    That is not what adead language is. A dead language is one that dosent have any native speakers,

    Why do you Insist that Irish is dead when it is not:confused:


  • #108
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    deise go deo wrote: »
    That is not what adead language is. A dead language is one that dosent have any native speakers,
    A couple of hundred may speak a few words to get a grant, thats about it. Nobody ever sees or hears anyone speaking it, and nobody ever saw a newspaper or magazine in irish. Time to stop wasting the hundreds of millions of euro beating it in to everyone. Stop the waste of duplicating all government printing in to Irish. More people speak chinese than Irish in Ireland, ffs. Its ugly, its dead, get over it.


  • #109
    Pace2008
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,587 ✭✭✭Pace2008


    deise go deo wrote: »
    That is not what adead language is. A dead language is one that dosent have any native speakers,

    Why do you Insist that Irish is dead when it is not
    It seems difficult to find an a consensus on what actually constitutes a dead language, but this definition states that it is “a language which is no longer spoken by anyone as their main language.” Irish would be pretty close to this, saved only only a very small portion of the populace living in Gaeltacht areas.

    An extinct language is one which does not have any native speakers.


  • #110
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Is Hebrew a dead language


  • #111
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Shebrew is though.


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  • #112
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Japer wrote: »
    A couple of hundred may speak a few words to get a grant, thats about it. Nobody ever sees or hears anyone speaking it, and nobody ever saw a newspaper or magazine in irish. Time to stop wasting the hundreds of millions of euro beating it in to everyone. Stop the waste of duplicating all government printing in to Irish. More people speak chinese than Irish in Ireland, ffs. Its ugly, its dead, get over it.

    You're quite wrong there. If you're going to try to argue a point, at least try to do it rationally.


  • #113
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Pace2008 wrote: »
    It seems difficult to find an a consensus on what actually constitutes a dead language, but this definition states that it is “a language which is no longer spoken by anyone as their main language.” Irish would be pretty close to this, saved only only a very small portion of the populace living in Gaeltacht areas.

    An extinct language is one which does not have any native speakers.

    Yes but that is a definition from an ENGLISH dictionary so its bound to favor english over irish.

    But seriously if Irish isn't dead it's definitely dying.


  • #114
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,395 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    It's not a dead language, but a state funded language. I can speak enough to get by, but would dearly love to have the same knowledge in a useful language instead.
    I spend a week in a gaeltach every year for the past 12 years and have yet to hear a local speak Irish there.


  • #115
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Japer wrote: »
    A couple of hundred may speak a few words to get a grant, thats about it.


    Wrong. Tens of thousands of people speak Irish Everyday, Tens of thousands are Native Irish speakers.
    Most of these people do not get any grant.
    Nobody ever sees or hears anyone speaking it, and nobody ever saw a newspaper or magazine in irish.

    Wrong. I speak Irish, I know A lot of other people who speak Irish, It is used every day by tens of thousands of people.
    As for newspapers, Get the Indo tomorow, Foinse, An Irish Language Paper will be in it. And the link I put up before is another Irish Newspaper.
    Time to stop wasting the hundreds of millions of euro beating it in to everyone. Stop the waste of duplicating all government printing in to Irish. More people speak chinese than Irish in Ireland, ffs. Its ugly, its dead, get over it.

    Beating it into people? Your living in the past.
    Its not ugly, Its not dead.
    Why do you continue to claim its dead? You have yet to provide anything to support your claim.


  • #116
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    In my opinion Irish is dying, however the best way to save it would be to take the french canadian approach.
    1. Abolish the teaching of it in schools
    2. Convince the people that still speak it primarly that the language is being repressed.
    3. Continue this process over time until you get to the stage that people will actively refuse to talk in English or obey government orders not posted in Irish.
    4. People who want to interact with the Irish speakers will be forced to learn some Irish.
    5. Eventually convince the new converts to take the same pride in Irish that the native speakers do. Slowly expanding the area.
    6. Repeat until the whole country speaks Irish.


  • #117
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Knasher wrote: »
    In my opinion Irish is dying, however the best way to save it would be to take the french canadian approach.
    1. Abolish the teaching of it in schools
    2. Convince the people that still speak it primarly that the language is being repressed.
    3. Continue this process over time until you get to the stage that people will actively refuse to talk in English or obey government orders not posted in Irish.
    4. People who want to interact with the Irish speakers will be forced to learn some Irish.
    5. Eventually convince the new converts to take the same pride in Irish that the native speakers do. Slowly expanding the area.
    6. Repeat until the whole country speaks Irish.


    Or, We could just reform the curriculum in schools and give people half a chance to learn it in the first place.


  • #118
    Arts student
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭Arts student


    The answer is yes, although what’s not dead is the insistence on been able to speak for half the jobs in the state (police / healthcare / law / teaching etc) unfortunately. As well as that the instance that students are forced to learn a language they'll never use again.

    Oh but its alright I suppose, because "the English took away our language and we are only restoring it" YAWN. Seriously if we as a people had wanted to speak it wouldn't we be doing so already? Language by its nature is is utilitarian and practical, i'm sure the Irish language was once a practical means of communication at one stage, but we do not need it now. However the romanticists, whether in the 19th century or today have brainwashed us into thinking we can't do without it - so much so that they have imposed barriers on many top professions and educational opportunities regardless of how damaging, or discriminatory it is.

    The Irish language is dead, and I am by no means cheering its demise. It's just that I don't see any practical application for it in my day-to-day life, and the misty eyed romanticists and revivalists have failed to convince me otherwise. I'm sorry if I sound harsh here, but I honestly couldn't care less whether Irish lasts or not, for one simple reason - I don't need it, nor does anybody else if we are to be honest.


  • #119
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Arts student wrote: »
    The answer is yes, although what’s not dead is the insistence on been able to speak for half the jobs in the state (police / healthcare / law / teaching etc) unfortunately. As well as that the instance that students are forced to learn a language they'll never use again.

    Oh but its alright I suppose, because "the English took away our language and we are only restoring it" YAWN. Seriously if we as a people had wanted to speak it wouldn't we be doing so already? Language by its nature is is utilitarian and practical, i'm sure the Irish language was once a practical means of communication at one stage, but we do not need it now. However the romanticists, whether in the 19th century or today have brainwashed us into thinking we can't do without it - so much so that they have imposed barriers on many top professions and educational opportunities regardless of how damaging, or discriminatory it is.

    The Irish language is dead, and I am by no means cheering its demise. It's just that I don't see any practical application for it in my day-to-day life, and the misty eyed romanticists and revivalists have failed to convince me otherwise. I'm sorry if I sound harsh here, but I honestly couldn't care less whether Irish lasts or not, for one simple reason - I don't need it, nor does anybody else if we are to be honest.


    That's fair enough, if people don't want to speak it, they don't have to, but speakers do have a right to certain services in their own language


  • #120
    CoalBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 971 ✭✭✭CoalBucket


    Is Irish a dead language thread dead yet !!!!!


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  • #121
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Or, We could just reform the curriculum in schools and give people half a chance to learn it in the first place.

    Maybe, though even then all you would really be doing is slowing down its demise. If the language is to thrive you have to give people a reason to want to speak it. To be honest I really do wish I was better at Irish because I do think its a beautiful language. Unfortunately I haven't had occasion to speak it in 10 years and its long gone at this stage.

    In any case it doesn't have the inbuilt evil that makes all my social policies fun, makes me think I'd make a great politician.


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