Mary Robinson tells it like it is

WindSock · 07-12-2010 11:12PM

Dudess wrote: »

WindSock, while nobody had a gun put to their heads to take out exorbitant bank loans, I don't accept that simply living here according to the conditions that prevailed, and not living beyond your means, not being greedy, and being honest constitutes buying into the madness. To avoid that, you'd have either had to emigrate or cut yourself off from society.

Earthhorse wrote: »

It begins, and ends, with one's personal actions and behaviours.

If you go to a party and there are people there doing drugs, and you enjoy watching their antics whilst they're high, should you go to jail?

If you go to a sporting event and are cheering and excited and some of the fans riot but you don't, should you be held accountable for it?

Of course not. Why should our consumption habits be any different?

Are we not also responsable for sitting back and accepting that 'this is us now. We're (others are getting...) rich' and not ask how Johnny and Mary part time down the road afforded a new plasma screen and NY shopping weekends.

What has listening to them got do do with it?

Well that's where everyone likes to point the finger. FF didn't warn us not to go to the banks for credit so therefore everyone (many) did.

It's not rhetoric, it's cold hard fact. The whole "Everyone's to blame even if you didn't contribute because you didn't manage to prevent an economic bubble!!!!" is the rhetoric.

How many people took to the streets to shout about over spending and mismanaging when times were good? The apathy of our society is part to blame.

Part to blame for what? Increased prices in retail goods? This has so little to do with the crisis we're facing as to be completely negligible.

Increased prices in everything and people willing to pay for them with money they didn't earn or have, I thought was a huge problem (as well as the property...)

sh1tstirrer · 07-12-2010 11:17PM

Noddy has some cheek. How much of a pension is she getting from her so called greedy Irish taxpayers?

Earthhorse · 07-12-2010 11:24PM

WindSock wrote: »

Are we not also responsable for sitting back and accepting that 'this is us now. We're (others are getting...) rich' and not ask how Johnny and Mary part time down the road afforded a new plasma screen and NY shopping weekends.

What?!? I don't understand what you are asking me to take a responsibility for here. Other people's consumption habits? How can I be responsible for that?

Well that's where everyone likes to point the finger. FF didn't warn us not to go to the banks for credit so therefore everyone (many) did.

We point the finger at them for allowing a market as important as banking to go unregulated and for fueling the property boom long after it had peaked. This was a central factor in what's happening now.

If a person has a line of credit from their bank then they are responsible for repaying that line of credit and that line of credit only; not every line of credit the bank has extended. Nor are they responsible for the number of lines of credit the bank has extended (funnily enough, that is the bank's "personal" responsibility).

How many people took to the streets to shout about over spending and mismanaging when times were good? The apathy of our society is part to blame.

I don't accept that. I don't believe that marching on the streets and shouting about anything achieves much in the way of things. I voted against FF in the last election and never engaged in conspicuous consumption. I will not be held responsible for the behaviour of a whole economy no more than I will be held responsible for increase in crime rates, a poorly run health service, the success of Chelsea FC, the last season of Lost or any other phenomenon which I have so little influence over as to make it almost immeasurable.

Increased prices in everything and people willing to pay for them with money they didn't earn or have, I thought was a huge problem (as well as the property...)

I disagree that it was. Having said that, I never bought anything I didn't have money for nor did many people I know, so again, how can I be held responsible for it?

Dudess · 07-12-2010 11:30PM

WindSock wrote: »

Are we not also responsable for sitting back and accepting that 'this is us now. We're (others are getting...) rich' and not ask how Johnny and Mary part time down the road afforded a new plasma screen and NY shopping weekends.

Plenty of us did question such OTT behaviour in fairness.

How many people took to the streets to shout about over spending and mismanaging when times were good? The apathy of our society is part to blame.

As Earthhorse said, not doing something to change the course of Irish history, and not having a crystal ball, hardly makes people culpable. It's as if we really had the power to change things when there were so many who wouldn't have gone along with attempts to effect such change. I had no idea things would turn out as badly as this - I thought it would just be a case of people no longer being able to afford the pre 2007 flashness but they'd still be fine... nothing like the catastrophe that has actually ensued. Those of us who weren't irresponsible and greedy thought we were doing enough. And this stuff about how any of us who bought something overpriced were in some way to blame - seriously? Even if we could afford it? And I'm not talking about expensive cars, but e.g. an iPod? A fancy pair of shoes (not Jimmy Choos, just something more expensive than your run-of-the-mill Dunnes best)?

Increased prices in everything and people willing to pay for them with money they didn't earn or have, I thought was a huge problem (as well as the property...)

Still not everyone's doing. It's one thing to use the term "we" in the general, not-really-meaning-everyone sense - that's fair enough, but some people are actually saying literally each and every citizen has some responsibility. Totally unreasonable and unfair - don't know why it's being accepted. As I asked, is an elderly person responsible? A disabled person? A very poor person?
We all have to soldier on now and do our best (or another way of looking at it is: many of us have to suffer for others' mistakes - no point in that now though) but some of the personal responsibility lark directed at people for getting the odd M&S meal instead of rigidly sticking with Dunnes... is going a bit too far.

WindSock · 07-12-2010 11:48PM

Earthhorse wrote: »

What?!? I don't understand what you are asking me to take a responsibility for here. Other people's consumption habits? How can I be responsible for that?

I am not asking you to do anything. But I accept that I saw all this madness happening when I returned to live here and sat back and said nothing. Or rather, I bitched and moaned about it. When what I should have been doing is be a bit more proactive in my whingings. Perhaps I may not have changed much. I am only one man, what can I do...

We point the finger at them for allowing a market as important as banking to go unregulated and for fueling the property boom long after it had peaked. This was a central factor in what's happening now.

And we allowed them to allow it. Not voting for a party is not enough in a democracy.

Dudess wrote: »

Plenty of us did question such OTT behaviour in fairness.

In AH?

...

We all have to soldier on now and do our best (or another way of looking at it is: many of us have to suffer for others' mistakes - no point in that now though) but some of the personal responsibility lark directed at people for getting the odd M&S meal instead of rigidly sticking with Dunnes... is going a bit too far.

I am not talking about paying for what you can afford, going for a step up in percieved quality in the shops, but paying over the odds for general things like pints as stated before. No one would stand for an €8 pint now, even if they were on the same or similar wages as 2006, so why did we then?

Sorry if I am not addressing all of both your points atm. I returned home to find out there is no water and I am getting a headache. I probably should have kept myself in the loop and planned ahead for the drought :pac:

Earthhorse · 08-12-2010 12:03AM

WindSock wrote: »

I am not asking you to do anything. But I accept that I saw all this madness happening when I returned to live here and sat back and said nothing. Or rather, I bitched and moaned about it. When what I should have been doing is be a bit more proactive in my whingings. Perhaps I may not have changed much. I am only one man, what can I do...

You might think I'm being a bit of a prick here but, genuinely? Not that much.

And we allowed them to allow it. Not voting for a party is not enough in a democracy.

I do not accept that. How far would have been far enough? If I'd gone on one march? Two? Half a dozen? On my own? Or would I have had to get hundreds of people to march with me? Thousands? Or should I have become directly involved in politics? Written letters to TDs? How many? Organised a letter writing campaign maybe? Or a political movement? A party? Run for election? And if I'd been defeated I should have run a better campaign? At what point have I done enough to absolve myself of responsibility?

Sorry, but in my world, responsibility does not rest with those who have little or no power, it rests with those that have the most.

Dudess · 08-12-2010 12:09AM

WindSock wrote: »

In AH?

Well I certainly thought "Wtf?!" when I saw the evidence of crazy spending habits, but what more could I do? It's their business - even if they're going to live to regret it, it's their responsibility, not mine.

No one would stand for an €8 pint now, even if they were on the same or similar wages as 2006, so why did we then?

People didn't exactly enjoy spending that kind of money on drink - I don't see how, retrospectively, we were part of the problem for not doing anything. It's incorrect apportioning of the blame.

I returned home to find out there is no water and I am getting a headache. I probably should have kept myself in the loop and planned ahead for the drought :pac:

There ya go - you should have had a darn crystal ball you irresponsible eejit...

OPENROAD · 08-12-2010 12:15AM

WindSock wrote: »

but paying over the odds for general things like pints as stated before. No one would stand for an €8 pint now, even if they were on the same or similar wages as 2006, so why did we then?

We are still over priced imo

uwala · 08-12-2010 12:33AM

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

Bull****.

My class had the honour of having her lecture us on human rights two weeks ago, as well as attending a seminar on climate justice, and this lady really knows her stuff.

She didn't abuse her position, she made more of the position than any other presidents have.

She pissed off the US because they don't want to hear about their human rights abuses.

Out of any Irish figurehead, you have to respect this lady as one that knows her stuff and is not afraid saying what needs to be said.

It's not an Irish Presidents role to be lecturing on human rights or climate justice. This is the kind of crap she was at as president. She decided to change the role without a mandate to do so. She abused the role to make a name for herself. She used her knowledge of the "law" to scare off anyone from telling her to stfd and stfu. Of course there are enough idiots in Ireland who would think its great because she "knows her stuff".

WindSock · 08-12-2010 12:33AM

Earthhorse wrote: »

You might think I'm being a bit of a prick here but, genuinely? Not that much.

One, no. One can vote, I guess and think they are making a difference.

I do not accept that. How far would have been far enough? If I'd gone on one march? Two? Half a dozen? On my own? Or would I have had to get hundreds of people to march with me? Thousands? Or should I have become directly involved in politics? Written letters to TDs? How many? Organised a letter writing campaign maybe? Or a political movement? A party? Run for election? And if I'd been defeated I should have run a better campaign? At what point have I done enough to absolve myself of responsibility?

No harm in trying.

Sorry, but in my world, responsibility does not rest with those who have little or no power, it rests with those that have the most.

Sure spidey, that's true. But it doesn't mean those with little power have no responsibility at all.

Dudess wrote: »

Well I certainly thought "Wtf?!" when I saw the evidence of crazy spending habits, but what more could I do? It's their business - even if they're going to live to regret it, it's their responsibility, not mine.

...which we now all pay for. Most people aren't going to go the Joneses next door and ask them how they afforded their new car though. The problem was with the credit available, from banks we all use, regulated by a government ansewerable or who should be made answerable to us. Most were too busy sucking on their pacifiers to care enough.

People didn't exactly enjoy spending that kind of money on drink - I don't see how, retrospectively, we were part of the problem for not doing anything. It's incorrect apportioning of the blame.

We didn't enjoy spending high prices, but we still did. No voting with feet, etc.

There ya go - you should have had a darn crystal ball you irresponsible eejit...

I don't need a crystal ball to know that water is not an infinate source.
Other people caused the shortages by leaving taps running all and every night over the freeze.
Happened last year too. I blame myself for not storing bottles of water in case it happened again. I blame myself for not listening to the media to know it was being cut off. Sure the government could have done more to warn me of this in advance too....

OPENROAD wrote: »

We are still over priced imo

Well, we still pay.

steddyeddy · 08-12-2010 12:34AM

Mary robinson usually knows her stuff but in this case her comments were a blanket term at best.

As regards the banks and the ridiculous loans they gave out to people. Of course no one forced people to take the loans but whatever way you look at it giving huge loans to so many people who couldnt possibly pay them back is the work of gobsh1tes!

Yes a 18 year old that gets a mortgage at 400k or whatever is naive but a banker who gives a naive customer a loan who cant pay it back shouldnt work in the bank.

FreudianSlippers · 08-12-2010 12:48AM

uwala wrote: »

It's not an Irish Presidents role to be lecturing on human rights or climate justice. This is the kind of crap she was at as president. She decided to change the role without a mandate to do so. She abused the role to make a name for herself. She used her knowledge of the "law" to scare off anyone from telling her to stfd and stfu. Of course there are enough idiots in Ireland who would think its great because she "knows her stuff".

Why put law in quotes? She is a highly regarded human rights Barrister and she is entitled to lecture on law in her capacity anywhere she pleases.

Earthhorse · 08-12-2010 12:51AM

WindSock wrote: »

One, no. One can vote, I guess and think they are making a difference.

Which I did. It didn't make any difference the times I voted for the losing candidate obviously.

No harm in trying.

It could be a waste of time and resources. But that's not the crux of what we're discussing anyway.

Sure spidey, that's true. But it doesn't mean those with little power have no responsibility at all.

The point is that there are limits on responsibility. Do I have no responsibility as a member of society toward that society? Of course not! I fulfilled my responsibility in that regard. It does not make me, in any way, responsible for the current crisis.

...which we now all pay for. Most people aren't going to go the Joneses next door and ask them how they afforded their new car though. The problem was with the credit available, from banks we all use, regulated by a government ansewerable or who should be made answerable to us. Most were too busy sucking on their pacifiers to care enough.

Or maybe they were realistic about what they could achieve by going next door and asking the Joneseseseses where they got their 50" new plasma beemer from i.e. nothing, particularly when they didn't live next door to any such people or even in the same estate (at what point does this analogy begin to lose its focus?).

We weren't all customers of the bank at the centre of this, Anglo, not at all.

We didn't enjoy spending high prices, but we still did. No voting with feet, etc.

Again, retail prices have little enough to do with the deep rooted problems which we're facing. I voted with my feet with regard to house prices by not buying one.

I don't need a crystal ball to know that water is not an infinate source.
Other people caused the shortages by leaving taps running all and every night over the freeze.
Happened last year too. I blame myself for not storing bottles of water in case it happened again. I blame myself for not listening to the media to know it was being cut off. Sure the government could have done more to warn me of this in advance too....

That's fine; you are blaming yourself for your personal handling of the situation in as much as it effects you. That's not analagous to what we're talking about here. I've lived a life well within my means; I'm not boasting but from a personal point of view this hardship will not be too hard on me (at least I don't think it will). That is, I take personal responsibility for handling my personal affairs and ensuring they can withstand unforeseen events as you wish you had with the water.

But no matter what way you spin it you are not responsible for the water being cut off; only for whether you made contingency for it in your own life. Two totally different things.

Dudess · 08-12-2010 12:59AM

Yeah there should be a limit on how far responsbility goes, otherwise, where does it actually stop? Where is the point that a person who lived, worked and spent here during the "Tiger" years is not responsible? If those three things alone constitute a level of responsibility, then bollocks to that. Might as well say anyone's responsible for anything.

wil · 08-12-2010 01:48AM

What history teaches us is that we learn nothing from history.

Probably because we are naive enough to believe we wont repeat the wrongs of our past.
Or maybe because we are never old enough to know better until we are too old to give a damn.

But what we do best is repeat.

Boom bust war peace feast famine revolution stabilisation corruption reformation power powerless binge hangover they all come and go then come and go again and again.

Greed begets greed, power begets desire begets......

One example - Nick Leeson has been warning about the state of banks for years ignored by most yet his dalliances prove to be chickenfeed compared to todays.
He told you so, nah na nah na... oh

Another - the UK property bust of the mid 90s - no never could happen here, we're different:mad: - No we're not:eek: - stop you're wrecking our buzz:mad:.

And another - Worst bankers (feel free to abbreviate) still take huge bonuses without a whimper or a squeal from the minions paying them from their own kids pockets. NOW!

And more - Best paid Worst politicians in our bankrupt state take token wage reductions while the rest of us take statutary redundancy and deep cuts. NOW!

Not everyone buys in to the current trend but when the majority do, or they empower those in power to do so in return for the crumbs it is hard to reverse the trend without becoming the renegade or the outsider.
The crumbs wither as power corrupts, the natives get restless and after getting kicked in the teeth for the third time rise up and follow another trend or rhetoric towards good or bad whichever.

And for the most part we piss and moan without changing a single thing as the majority remain wrapped up in the simple chore of living a life

Then we live and learn and forget and learn to live to regret and forget all over again

Chorus
Then they live and learn and forget and learn to live to regret and forget all over again. La la la ... b:eek:!!:eek:ck$

COYW · 08-12-2010 10:39AM

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I never borrowed beyond what I could afford. I didn't buy a house as I knew I wouldn't be able to afford it. Does that make me greedy too Mary? Sweeping statements like hers are not needed. Dumb bitch.

She is not talking about people like you. She is referring to people who have 5 figure credit card debts and took out outragreous mortgages, so they could afford to buy 2 new cars each year and go on 3 foreign holidays.

prinz · 08-12-2010 10:46AM

Earthhorse wrote: »

It begins, and ends, with one's personal actions and behaviours.

Unfortunately it doesn't. All our personal actions and behaviours have wider knock-on effects.

Earthhorse wrote: »

It's not rhetoric, it's cold hard fact. The whole "Everyone's to blame even if you didn't contribute because you didn't manage to prevent an economic bubble!!!!" is the rhetoric..

That's just it people did contribute. You may have only spent what you had but it was still contributing unless you refused to spend over the odds for anything. It wasn't just house prices that were ridiculously over-inflated. We were always heading toward a melt-down. You cannot have a situation where someone doing one job here is earning multiples of someone doing the same job in another EU state, while enjoying more government spending and lower taxes. It was unsustainable anyway.

Earthhorse wrote: »

Part to blame for what? Increased prices in retail goods? This has so little to do with the crisis we're facing as to be completely negligible.

That's where you are wrong. There was always going to be a recession here, banks failing or not. Wages and the cost of living cannot climb indefinitely, the prices had lost all touch with reality, of course they were going to come back to some semblance of normality.

Anyway, I am out. *Puts AH hat on* It wasn't me, don't know anyone who is in debt, everything was fine until the banks screwed us......:rolleyes: Had nothing to do with your average Irish person at all.

Feeona · 08-12-2010 10:47AM

wil wrote: »

And for the most part we piss and moan without changing a single thing as the majority remain wrapped up in the simple chore of living a life

Yeah we're kept busy alright! The snow is a godsend for the Dáil too. Very hard to mobilise people when it's freezing outside!

So anyway, what did you think of Mary getting booted off X Factor? Because that's where the real corruption is! :rolleyes:

Beaucoupfish · 08-12-2010 10:53AM

minidazzler wrote: »

Not my fault at all TBH. I am 21, I have had no effect on the economy to date.

You were educated.

sensibleken · 08-12-2010 10:55AM

I am sick to christ of being told im greedy.

i got fúck all during the boom, no house, car, luxury feckin bed sheets. And i never voted for FF

Beaucoupfish · 08-12-2010 10:58AM

@ Minstrel 27

Maybe you should study Mary Robinson's career before you call her a dumb bitch.

Earthhorse · 08-12-2010 11:01AM

prinz wrote: »

Unfortunately it doesn't. All our personal actions and behaviours have wider knock-on effects.

You misunderstand. You take responsibility for the predictable outcomes of your own actions but not for those of others.

That's just it people did contribute. You may have only spent what you had but it was still contributing unless you refused to spend over the odds for anything. It wasn't just house prices that were ridiculously over-inflated.

What do you mean paid "over the odds" for anything? What odds? What are you talking about? People place a price on a good or service they think reasonable; if they're willing to pay that price, all things considered, then it is worth that price to them. In that respect I did not pay "over the odds" for anything. Nor do I accept that it in any way precipitated the housing bubble which is at the very root of this crisis.

We were always heading toward a melt-down. You cannot have a situation where someone doing one job here is earning multiples of someone doing the same job in another EU state, while enjoying more government spending and lower taxes. It was unsustainable anyway.

Sure it was unsustainable but the recession that would have followed if it were just that would have been managable unlike the one we have now which has turned into a real crisis.

That's where you are wrong. There was always going to be a recession here, banks failing or not. Wages and the cost of living cannot climb indefinitely, the prices had lost all touch with reality, of course they were going to come back to some semblance of normality.

Again, you seem to be confusing the regular economic cycles of booms and busts, which, as you say, were going to happen anyway, with the property bubble; a separate entity in its own right which has what has really landed us in trouble. That's the crisis I'm referring to. If that weren't in the equation this recession would be easily weathered. A huge part of the inflation you are talking about was caused by the housing markets; as rents rise, so too must prices and wages (because rent is higher now). Again, if it weren't for the property bubble we wouldn't be fine but we wouldn't be in the dire straits which we are in now.

Anyway, I am out. *Puts AH hat on* It wasn't me, don't know anyone who is in debt, everything was fine until the banks screwed us......:rolleyes: Had nothing to do with your average Irish person at all.

Yeah, continue making mocking, ignorant statments like this, it really rounds off the quality of your argument quite appropriately.

prinz · 08-12-2010 11:06AM

Earthhorse wrote: »

Yeah, continue making mocking, ignorant statments like this, it really rounds off the quality of your argument quite appropriately.

Sorry, but what can you expect me to say to someone who thinks value for money existed in this country for a decade or so. It didn't.

Earthhorse · 08-12-2010 11:07AM

I only expect you to make decent, substantiated arguments rather than mocking, parting shots; clearly, I expect too much.

Feeona · 08-12-2010 11:07AM

Beaucoupfish wrote: »

Maybe you should study Mary Robinson's career before you call her a dumb bitch.

It's been said a few times in this thread. Profanities-the refuge of the ignorant.

WindSock · 08-12-2010 11:11AM

Earthhorse wrote: »

Which I did. It didn't make any difference the times I voted for the losing candidate obviously.

It could be a waste of time and resources. But that's not the crux of what we're discussing anyway.

The point is that there are limits on responsibility. Do I have no responsibility as a member of society toward that society? Of course not! I fulfilled my responsibility in that regard. It does not make me, in any way, responsible for the current crisis.

So you think you did your bit by going to the polling stations?
Of course you have a responsibilty to the society you are a member of. Who else is supposed to? We all do.

Or maybe they were realistic about what they could achieve by going next door and asking the Joneseseseses where they got their 50" new plasma beemer from i.e. nothing, particularly when they didn't live next door to any such people or even in the same estate (at what point does this analogy begin to lose its focus?).

So you didn't see with your own eyes the ridiculous amount of money being spent?

We weren't all customers of the bank at the centre of this, Anglo, not at all

We didn't all vote FF either. That doesn't absolve everyone who didn't of trying to make a difference.

Again, retail prices have little enough to do with the deep rooted problems which we're facing. I voted with my feet with regard to house prices by not buying one.

Over inflated prices on everything are the deep rooted problems.

That's fine; you are blaming yourself for your personal handling of the situation in as much as it effects you. That's not analagous to what we're talking about here. I've lived a life well within my means; I'm not boasting but from a personal point of view this hardship will not be too hard on me (at least I don't think it will). That is, I take personal responsibility for handling my personal affairs and ensuring they can withstand unforeseen events as you wish you had with the water.

But no matter what way you spin it you are not responsible for the water being cut off; only for whether you made contingency for it in your own life. Two totally different things.

Ultimately the weather is responsible, which is beyond anyones control. The actions which spurred the water to be turned off, is an attitude or belief in the society that I am in that if I leave the taps on, it'll be grand. I am responsible for that, to a degree.

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah there should be a limit on how far responsbility goes, otherwise, where does it actually stop? Where is the point that a person who lived, worked and spent here during the "Tiger" years is not responsible? If those three things alone constitute a level of responsibility, then bollocks to that. Might as well say anyone's responsible for anything.

We are all responsible for attitudes on the society we live in by challenging what we believe to be wrong. I should have told my Mam the other day when she called me to say about leaving on the taps, that that is stupid. But I didn't. In fact I turned them on to trickle for about an hour before realising that it is dumb, useless and self serving.

Minstrel27 · 08-12-2010 11:13AM

COYW wrote: »

She is not talking about people like you. She is referring to people who have 5 figure credit card debts and took out outragreous mortgages, so they could afford to buy 2 new cars each year and go on 3 foreign holidays.

Not according to some people here. It would seem that because I choose to rent a room in a house that has electricity, buy groceries in a shopping center and drive a small car that runs on petrol I am part of the problem.

Beaucoupfish wrote: »

@ Minstrel 27

Maybe you should study Mary Robinson's career before you call her a dumb bitch.

I will judge her on her sweeping moronic statement. I couldn't give a damn about her career.

Feeona wrote: »

It's been said a few times in this thread. Profanities-the refuge of the ignorant.

How is the view from your high horse.

prinz · 08-12-2010 11:13AM

Earthhorse wrote: »

I only expect you to make decent, substantiated arguments rather than mocking, parting shots; clearly, I expect too much.

You mean like self-flaggellation, meekness, deference to authority...

starbelgrade · 08-12-2010 11:15AM

There seems to huge misconceptions here as to what caused this recession.

It wasn't the fact that people bought big TVs, went on foreign holidays or paid 8 quid for pints. It wasn't even that people bought houses or maxed out their credit cards.

Economic recessions are caused by a decline in GDP growth.

What caused Ireland's decline in GDP growth is rather complicated...

To get the longer version, we need to go back to the US before 2000. For decades, financial institutions and banks had been lobbying for the removal of something called the Glass Steagall act (1933), which was put in place during the last depression to prevent another great depression. What this act did was to stop banks trying to sell investments to its customers, seperating deposit and investment banks by law. A mere nine years after the repeal of the act, against a background of increasingly lax banking regulation, we find ourselves once again in a depression.

In simple terms, a loan for €1 was sold on to another bank for 95 cent, who sold it on for 90 cent, who sold it on for 85 cent, and so on, until the original loan was now leveraged from €1 to €50, only €1 of which was actually real.

A further issue which arose, was that banks securitised their loans, basically packaged them up into instruments so complicated that even the banks themselves couldn't comprehend them, and sold them on to pension funds and investment groups. When many of these loans ultimately turned out to be bad, the banks not only didn't know which loans were good or bad, they had immense difficulty tracking where these loans actually were.

So of course, most of the English speaking world followed the lead of the US, leading to the situation we have today. In Ireland this was actually made worse by government policy intended to inflate the property market, the main vehicle people put their money into and took out major loans for. These property loans didn't create any value, or any wealth, they simply built properties that added nothing to the economy, removing productive wealth from the country.

And those, essentially are the causes for the recession in Ireland.

But of course, it's easier just to say that people lost the run of themselves, got greedy & overpaid for pints.

It's an easy answer, but it's not true.

And Mary Robinson should really know better.

Earthhorse · 08-12-2010 11:16AM

WindSock wrote: »

So you think you did your bit by going to the polling stations?
Of course you have a responsibilty to the society you are a member of. Who else is supposed to? We all do.

We didn't all vote FF either. That doesn't absolve everyone who didn't of trying to make a difference.

I have asked you several times in this thread to clarify what you believe is enough action before one is absolved of responsibility. Please provide it.

So you didn't see with your own eyes the ridiculous amount of money being spent?

Not first hand, no. Everyone I know is able to meet their debts. Sorry if that's not true of you and your friends but it has nothing to do with me.

Over inflated prices on everything are the deep rooted problems.

How so?

Ultimately the weather is responsible, which is beyond anyones control. The actions which spurred the water to be turned off, is an attitude or belief in the society that I am in that if I leave the taps on, it'll be grand. I am responsible for that, to a degree.

That's a personal belief, one which I happen not to share.

We are all responsible for attitudes on the society we live in by challenging what we believe to be wrong. I should have told my Mam the other day when she called me to say about leaving on the taps, that that is stupid. But I didn't. In fact I turned them on to trickle for about an hour before realising that it is dumb, useless and self serving.

So blame yourself or your mother or whomever else influenced your dumb, useless and self-serving behaviour for it; I'll thank you not to blame me for it.

Mary Robinson tells it like it is

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