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NASRPC proposals on licencing centerfire pistols, as submitted to the DoJ

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  • 22-01-2011 5:34am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭


    Also reported on here in Irish Shooting Politics with slightly more verbosity.

    A little while ago, I was sent a document with various redactions by a source who wishes at this time to remain anonymous. The document was quite disturbing in nature, and I sought to verify its authenticity through other avenues. At present, I'm waiting on a number of FoI requests from the PTB, but I have unofficial confirmation from them that the document is real and was submitted to the Department by the NASRPC in June 2009, during the final run-up to the passing of the Misc.Provisions Act. I have confirmed that the document did not go to the DoJ via the SSAI or via the FCP but was sent in directly to the DoJ. The proposals in the document were described by officials in the DoJ (again unofficially) as "untenable and illegal" - and I think that says a lot about the impact that the document had on our appearance at the negotiation table during a fairly sensitive and critical time. While the FoI requests are still pending, and I'll post the outcome of them here, I was able to source an unredacted copy of the document from other channels and a copy is attached to this post (it's only 12 pages of text, it's a short read).

    There are a number of things contained in the document that are deeply unpalatable. I went into them in some detail in the blog post, but here's the summary:
    • It is effectively an NGB (which legally is basicly a club and thus not bound by any part of the companies act and who don't even have to follow their own rules, let alone anyone else's) seeking to obtain control over a state licencing function, namely the licencing of centerfire pistols.
    • It proposes new rules and restrictions on ownership of centerfire pistols that go far beyond those that even the Minister was proposing in the Act, including:
      • Mandatory safety training courses to be taken (run by the NASRPC)
      • Mandatory safety testing to be passed (again run by the NASRPC)
      • A smallbore or fullbore rifle licence held for a year to be a mandatory prerequisite for an application for a pistol licence
      • A mandatory 24-month apprenticeship programme to be subsequently undertaken by all applicants with a smallbore pistol under the NASRPC's supervision and evaluation (for a total of three years the applicants spend certified for firearms they ultimately neither want nor need)
      • Two safes to be installed, to a standard beyond that specified by [url=https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/17587/87248.pdf[/url], the pistol to be broken into two parts and those parts stored in seperate safes
      • A steel strongbox to be bolted, welded or chained to the chassis of the applicant's car for storage of the pistol during transport, along with other related regulations
      • Mandatory entry into NASRPC-run competitions to be a condition of the licence
      • The kind of pistol sought must be "deemed to be a suitable target pistol" by the NASRPC (which would require that the NASRPC prepare and maintain a "list" of the only centerfire pistols anyone could licence) - and it specifically states it will prohibit the licencing of Glock pistols.
      • The official recommendation of the NASRPC required in the form of a letter of support for an application
    • It segregates the target shooting community into a hierarchy of worthiness to own a pistol as follows:
      nasrpc_discussion_document_segmentation.pngWhere 'D. Others' are described in the text as 'dinner party Glock owners' and would be prohibited from owning a pistol.
    • It sets up a framework which would make the repeal of the current de facto ban on centerfire pistols much more difficult than if it was solely set forth in the Firearms Act
    • It explicitly gives a veto (and pledges the NASRPC to police that veto) over whether or not disciplines will be shot, to the Irish Sports Council as well as the DoJ and the Gardai
    • It calls for a cap to be placed (at 800 licences) on the number of centerfire pistol licences which can exist in the State at any one time, relying on the "dead mans boots" procedure to issue existing licences to new applicants, who remain on a waiting list indefinitely until that happens, despite having invested three years and a lot of cash by this point
    • It creates the role of Club Armourer, who would be given possession of a component part of every pistol owned by a member of that club upon their leaving the range, and who would be responsible for the secure storage of that component part until that shooter returned to the range, where shooting could only take place on designated days as a result; or to bring that component part to whatever range the shooter was going to for away competitions. There would also be a Deputy Club Armourer, and it would be a mandatory requirement of your licence that you be a member of a club which had both of these roles filled by appointed people. Apart from the obvious logistical problems that creates, it introduces the scenario where such a Club Armorer could be in possession of sufficient component parts to assemble a pistol from them which would be both unlicenced and almost untraceable. It also glosses over the legal requirement for a licence to be held by each Club Armourer and Deputy Club Armourer for each pistol -- as a component part is, under the law, a firearm in its own right and requires a licence to possess -- which means that despite there being an NASRPC Cap of 800 licences, there could only be 266 actual pistols in the country at any one time.
    • It sets forth conditions on the ownership of handguns, but was submitted solely by the NASRPC, even though the NASRPC is only one of seven NGBs that administer pistol shooting sports in Ireland (the NTSA, the NASRPC, the Pony Club, the IBS, the ITS, the MPAI and the NSAI all use pistols in their events) and only one of five that administer centerfire pistol disciplines, and not one of the two which absolutely require centerfire pistols for all of the sports they oversee. And it was prepared in secret, never revealed to the community as a whole, either before or after its submission to the Department.

    The procedure the NASRPC proposed in this document was as follows:

    nasrpc_discussion_document_appendix.png

    I think that given the questions and demands that were put to the SSAI Chairman in public meeting by NASRPC committee members recently (including those who drafted this document) -- as well as for other reasons which I can't divulge until the FoI requests are responded to -- this document should see the light of day, even if only to give context to the criticisms which I understand are to be raised at the upcoming SSAI AGM in order to support a bid by the NASRPC committee to take over that body. If the NASRPC committee members wish to run the SSAI and represent a large proportion of the shooting community on the FCP and to the Department of Justice, then an example of the kind of regulations they draft when given a completely blank canvas should be more widely appreciated.

    It seems only fair.


«1345

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭everypenny


    I actually read this with a dropped jaw. I can't believe that such draconian laws were being considered or even put forward by an element of the shooting community.
    It looks to me like an attempt to obtain as much power in granting of licenses and firearms and would result in a monopoly being held by a select few.
    The comment on a specific pistol make is an example of their lack of knowledge in this sphere. It would be like saying i want to control the sale of cigarettes and giving out about Bensons specifically.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28 shedd7


    Old news and a lot of hooha about a PROPOSAL, not even a firm commitment to implement any or all of the content. Interesting timing,though:rolleyes: Just before the meeting in Portlaoise.Hmmmm. What's that I smell.....hardly a fishy smell, or is it?????


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Makes "the list" I alluded to look insignificant :eek:

    Speechless !


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭50cal


    shedd7 wrote: »
    Old news and a lot of hooha about a PROPOSAL, not even a firm commitment to implement any or all of the content. Interesting timing,though:rolleyes: Just before the meeting in Portlaoise.Hmmmm. What's that I smell.....hardly a fishy smell, or is it?????

    The document stinks allright but not of fish .It smells more like a power crazed neanderthal that was hell bent on taking control of pistol shooting in Ireland.:mad:
    Now who could that be ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    load of rubbish , and i wouldn't support it at all , 800 licences only in the country at anyone time ? so to get a licence you'd have to be a friend or crony of someone in the know , with friends like this who'd need enemies .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    800 licences rowa, but only 266 pistols at any one time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭freddieot


    Hard battles were fought over the years to have handguns (and also 308 etc. ) brought back into the licensing arena, most of them in Court. A lot of time and energy spent in discussions and submissions to show ourselves as reasonable responsible sportsmen that have the interests of (all) Irish Shooting at heart.

    Now we see a document that potentially damages all of that. and highlights a self-serving attitude that exists in certain quarters where some seek to copper-fasten their sport or discipline while at the same time sacrificing others.

    I'm one of the hundreds of people waiting to go to Court to get back my handgun cert. Others have already fought for theirs. This document is an absolute disgrace and an insult to anyone fighting for their firearms.

    To think that this nonsense could have been put forward by an organisation supposedly representing the interests of Irish Shooting.

    I thought the Government were bad but at least they had enough sense not to go along with this even if they now appear to have the same self-destuctive tendancies..


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Wonder what kind of spin will be rolled out to defend this. This thread will get interesting fast


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭4gun


    I know this thread is to do with target shooting and my interest is mainly from a hunting point of view, but I think more emphasis should be given for the licencing of pistols for humane dispatch...killing two fallow with one bullet from 150 yds brought home how deadly a .308 round is even after passing through the body of a deer..the second had to be dispatched at distance which wasn't easy as it was trashing about
    not only is it essential for the safety of the hunter but also for the unnecessary suffering of the animals..


  • Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭V Bull


    I gave up posting on this forum a long time ago because I taught that some of the posts & photos might be somewhat damaging to my sport of shooting etc, but this document takes the biscuit........

    As Freddieot has stated, a lot of us here, had & have huge problems trying to justify a reasonable requirement for the issue / re-issue of our handgun certificates to our Ch Supers and some of us through the courts at huge expense. Now we know why we have these problems.......because of this submission by the NASRPC ...my God, what have they done!!!!!!!!!!.

    I taught that this was an association to further and better the sport of shooting, but instead, I think they have put us back years with their draconian, ludicrous, dictatorial, invasive proposals.

    I have read over this document several times as I just cannot believe what they have done to us, are these guys on the SSAI committee, are they on the FCP or any other shooting body. ....If so, my opinion would be to get rid of them, vote them off and out of every shooting committee, body, panel and club I say.

    You wouldn’t believe how I feel at the moment by this revelation.....pure sickened and disgusted..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭meathshooter1


    I cant believe that this was submitted. least of all without the consultation of the other NGBs and FCP who also have an interest in pistols and also the NARGC who after all has brought most of the high court cases to date.its very one sided not to everybody's interest and could have other far reaching implications, in my opinion


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    The solution to everything in Ireland is more God damn paperwork :rolleyes: The above is ridiculous though, as an outsider not into pistols.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 52 ✭✭2112


    Who TF are these people. They dont represent me I hope. My case is due in court soon, 5 years I had a licence and then it was refused. I am raging. The cheek of them


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    johngalway wrote: »
    The solution to everything in Ireland is more God damn paperwork :rolleyes: The above is ridiculous though, as an outsider not into pistols.

    possibly , and remember that every "mandatory training course" etc would have a fee attached , this submission is an own goal for the nasrpc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    rowa wrote: »
    possibly , and remember that every "mandatory training course" etc would have a fee attached , this submission is an own goal for the nasrpc.

    Agree entirely Rowa.

    Course for this, course for that, fee for this, fee for that.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Course for this, course for that, fee for this, fee for that.
    Yes, lots of fees.

    Fees to be in an affiliated club, fees for competitions, fees for training, fees for storage of component parts.

    The question is who will benefit from these fees??

    Would it be the same people that are proposing to introduce these proposals?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,956 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Somone ,somwhere had better have a very good explanation for this!
    Wether it was a policy document,proposal,or kite flying exercise,it is an unbeliveable stab in the back for Irish gunowners.Not only that it was stupid,looks like a power grab,and contrary to any ethos of the policies of Irish shooting.Whoever put this together had better be "considering their position" as it is so nicely put,as I would have absolutly NO confidence in the whole policy makers.
    But then again,should we be surprised that this Irish malaise of" Feck the lot of ye,its me fein,first last and always..Give us your money!!"Followed by a large knife in the back should be absent from our ranks as well???

    With friends and repersentatives like this who the hell needs enemies???:mad::mad::mad:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,590 ✭✭✭Tackleberrywho


    http://www.nasrpc.ie/who-we-are/national-committee



    Name Position Club Contact


    Declan Byrne Hon. Chairman ECSSC declan.byrne@nasrpc.ie


    Michael Tope Hon. Secretary Eagles michael.tope@nasrpc.ie


    Mark Maguire Hon. Treasurer
    Harbour
    House
    mark.maguire@nasrpc.ie


    Declan Keogh Spokesperson ECSC declan.keogh@nasrpc.ie


    Martin Hayes Vice Chairman Hilltop martin.hayes@nasrpc.ie


    Nigel Barrett Public Relations Officer Hilltop nigel.barrett@nasrpc.ie


    Ask these Guys what the Craic is?


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭50cal


    http://www.nasrpc.ie/who-we-are/national-committee



    Name Position Club Contact


    Declan Byrne Hon. Chairman ECSSC declan.byrne@nasrpc.ie


    Michael Tope Hon. Secretary Eagles michael.tope@nasrpc.ie


    Mark Maguire Hon. Treasurer
    Harbour
    House
    mark.maguire@nasrpc.ie


    Declan Keogh Spokesperson ECSC declan.keogh@nasrpc.ie


    Martin Hayes Vice Chairman Hilltop martin.hayes@nasrpc.ie


    Nigel Barrett Public Relations Officer Hilltop nigel.barrett@nasrpc.ie


    Ask these Guys what the Craic is?


    Come on lads you made submissions on our behalf surely you can defend yourselves ?
    The hilltop crew have gone very quiet ! Has the cat got your tongues ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    after seeing several of the names on this list , i am not surprised this has happened :rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Saw that. Didn't want to comment (the NASRPC have a VRep account here, figured that they should post it).
    But since you posted it up, here's one comment - if they're an all-new NASRPC since that document was written, how come two of the four names on page one of that document are the current chairman and current secretary of the NASRPC?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Sparks wrote: »
    .............. (the NASRPC have a VRep account here, figured that they should post it)......

    He must be on his way to post it here ;)

    http://www.nasrpc.ie/hot-news-1/nasrpcstatement


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,055 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Well, we haven't banned the account bunny - so it's their choice if so!


  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Hondata92


    Im not a pistol shooter but this p!sses me off big time.

    The fact that one group who isnt a governing body can put these suggestions forward to the doj is bs imo if thats what the NASRPC are doing god only knows what the rest are at!

    The were out for power and money simple as and the statement that the released was pathetic to say the least, they didnt even have the b@lls to post it on here themselves and it was such bs i still cant believe they actually posted it.

    They said that the FOIA wasnt needed yet they never said anything about these suggestions but they think that people would contact them making wild guesses without any info of what might be going on between them an the DOJ:rolleyes:

    Saying that this document was old and that they thought it was never going to be taking into consideration is bs and what is worse is they said it was negotiation with the DOJ, just like a hostage situation where the kidnappers ask for 10k yet are offered 50k and a house by the sea and get off scot free :rolleyes:

    If thats what the NASRPC are doing then all we can hope is that none of the rest are such inclined:o

    Personally i would like to see what NASRPC Nigel has to say on here :cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭Mr Mole


    50 Cal, your "Hilltop" comment is unwarranted. :mad: That document was submitted long long before any member of Hilltop Committee was on the NASRPC Committee. It was submitted when the Chairman of NASRPC was also a member of the FCP. Individuals who were members of Hilltop did not represent the club.

    Dont ask Hilltop members for any explanation on this document to which they had ZERO input or knowledge..


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,224 ✭✭✭Kramer


    NASRPC - where do I sign up?

    :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 926 ✭✭✭freddieot


    Sure, each NGB, Club, Range or Group want to fight their own corner with the PTB. nothing wrong with that. This is allegedly a democracy of sorts. However, the kind of 'borderline cleansing' that was proposed for 'non-aligned' shooters and shooting sports as contained in the document cannot be excused

    Regarding the reply, the most disturbing part is :-

    "We are continuously in discussions with the Dept. of Justice, Dept. of Sport and the Gardai in order to work together for the future of all of our sports".

    I only speak for myself, but I could never trust anyone who could allow themselves to be a party to the blatant mé féinism that is contained in that proposal. The fact that further 'discussion's are happening is in my opinion very worrying.

    Can we be sure that these 'discussion' are not again seeking to marginalise or sacrifice certain calibres, sports or shooters for a 'higher purpose' ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,956 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Lads,did ye get an unemployed Dail spin doctor to write that press release??That is dreadful!
    To sum it up it seems to be.

    1] Ah well we didnt really have anything to do with it,it was this fellow who was chairman of our organisation,and he is with the FCP,so blame him.

    2]Sure times have moved on,we are where we are, nothing can be done about it now,it didnt happen,the minister didnt take it on board.What are ye all worried about this now??

    I'm worried about the fact that people in charge actually decided to put somthing like this out and hand it to the most anti gun minister for justice we have had since Dessie O Malley!!

    3]There were loads of ideas and yokes flying around at the time,we put this out in an ideal of cooperation and willingness to work with the DOJ.

    4] Its old news now and somone is out to stir the ****e! We were always open and transparent with our dealings on this ,etc,etc,yada yada.

    If that is the best ye can do..God help us all!!

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    If the NARGC would have submitted such drivel "on my behalf" I would personally drive down to the office in Ranelagh and demand an explanation for where they believe they got the mandate to try and usurp the functions of State bodies while making my enjoyment of my chosen sport subject to their whim.

    After that I'd start ringing and e-mailing all fellow members I know to start pressing for an egm with one point on the agenda : kick out the top table and revoke their organisation membership.


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