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Sky introduce new encryption system to combat piracy (HD Channels have began switch)

  • 23-05-2014 8:03pm
    #1
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭


    From thread on DS -
    Confirmed channels switched to new encryption data -

    Sky 1 HD
    Sky Premier HD
    Sky Atlantic HD
    Sky SciFi / Horror HD
    Sky Disney HD
    Sky Living HD
    Sky Arts 1 HD
    Sky Arts 2 HD
    National Geographic UK HD
    History HD
    Crime HD
    NAT Geo Wild HD


    Sky's new pairing doesn't introduce any significant differences to the existing NDS data, that data is still encrypted so only a genuine card can decrypt it, but what it does do is add an additional layer of encryption between the box/card to prevent their cards from being used in card servers like oscam or CCcam (what your c line uses to decrypt channels).

    A new HD box running the latest firmware is able to take the incoming NDS data [ECMs/EMMs] from the MPEG (video) stream and further encrypt it before sending it to the card.

    An old HD box (or an SD box) just continues as it did before, extracting the NDS data from the MPEG stream and feeding it to the card.

    This design allows Sky to alter NOTHING to the existing NDS code, which is essential to (a) prevent loggers/hackers from running comparators over logs from the then/now data streams and (b) allow older boxes to work as before.

    Remember, the change has NOT happened at the NDS level, it has happened at the firmware level of both the new HD boxes and the existing cards.

    It's the boxes that are instructed to use the pairing algorithm [or not] for a particular channel(s) [or more accurately, entitlement group/level]

    If you place a card in a new HD box, the card will be instructed to accept the newly encrypted data using the sky box's pairing key...

    If you then move the card back to oscam, it will continue to expect that encrypted data for that channel(s) and try to decrypt it...
    Of course, as the incoming data is NOT encrypted (coming from oscam for example) you'll get nothing worthwhile back..

    So what happens when you put a card back in oscam or put it back in an SD box or an old HD box and leave it..?
    If the card is unable to verify it's running in a new HD box [after x amount of time (or cycles) or following a new install/pairing process], it reverts back to the original system we all know and love, which is of course easy for most to share.
    [I'm sure their lawyers have reminded Sky not to enforce a blackout on paying customers for fear of prosecution or maybe Sky have acknowledged some people may use their own older boxes in the event of a failure..]

    How long Sky allow the card to revert back on the other hand is the question most pay servers should be considering..

    As it stands now the new system does nothing to prevent c/s, however, once Sky are happy they have updated all the smartcards (all those EMMs you've been seeing...) and have completed most (if not all) of the box upgrades, expect to see some disruption.

    When this will be, you'll have to ask the boys over at Sky (and I'm not talking about their installers / customer support agents here lol)

    Here's a quick overview of both the old and new data exchange:

    Current:
    ECM/EMM Data is fed to the box via the MPEG stream, it then passes it to the card for a response.

    New:
    ECM/EMM Data is fed to the box via the MPEG stream, it then further encrypts the data using a pairing key before passing it on to the card. The card decrypts this in order to then decrypt and process the original ECM/EMM command. The reply is then encrypted [again using the pairing key] and sent back to the box, which then decrypts and executes it.

    Both the original ECM/EMM data and the reply have not changed, the only thing that has changed is the way the data was exchanged between the box and the card..

    Very interesting (albeit expected) development from bskyb to combat piracy, from what I have read elsewhere Sky Italia have been using the system for about 6 months and all HD channels should be under the umbrella of the new encryption system before the world cup comes around.

    I suppose at the end of the day the system will be broke but it will give sky much needed breathing space - internet streaming I take will be their next big area to tackle


«13456

Comments

  • #2
    radiowaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭radiowaves


    irishfeen wrote: »
    From thread on DS -



    Very interesting (albeit expected) development from bskyb to combat piracy, from what I have read elsewhere Sky Italia have been using the system for about 6 months and all channels should be under the umbrella of the new encryption system before the world cup comes around.

    I suppose at the end of the day the system will be broke but it will give sky much needed breathing space - internet streaming I take will be their next big area to tackle

    Certainly not the case :)


  • #3
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    radiowaves wrote: »
    Certainly not the case :)
    Ha thanks for pointing that out radio, I meant HD channels... SD will remain on the old system until all old boxes are upgraded (which will happen in due course) - I would expect all boxes to be upgraded within 12 months though.


  • #4
    radiowaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭radiowaves


    irishfeen wrote: »
    Ha thanks for pointing that out radio, I meant HD channels... SD will remain on the old system until all old boxes are upgraded (which will happen in due course)

    Ah, I see that now :D


  • #5
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭flutered


    reading the international fourms, it seems that the sky italia has succumbed to a hacker, is there not someone always trying to outsmart the authoritys.


  • #6
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    flutered wrote: »
    reading the international fourms, it seems that the sky italia has succumbed to a hacker, is there not someone always trying to outsmart the authoritys.
    Really?? :eek: ... first I have heard about it, I have heard it was rolled across sky Italy about 6 months ago.


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  • #7
    tinner777
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭tinner777


    irishfeen wrote: »
    Ha thanks for pointing that out radio, I meant HD channels... SD will remain on the old system until all old boxes are upgraded (which will happen in due course) - I would expect all boxes to be upgraded within 12 months though.

    no chance of that until sky drop the sub charge for hd


  • #8
    radiowaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭radiowaves


    irishfeen wrote: »
    Really?? :eek: ... first I have heard about it, I have heard it was rolled across sky Italy about 6 months ago.

    It was (all HD channels).

    What he's saying is that it's (rumoured to have) been hacked.


  • #9
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    tinner777 wrote: »
    no chance of that until sky drop the sub charge for hd
    Could of course just directly replace all old boxes free of charge to let people remain on their normal subscription.


  • #10
    radiowaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭radiowaves


    tinner777 wrote: »
    no chance of that until sky drop the sub charge for hd

    Subscribers don't need to be HD subscribers to receive the new box.

    Once all the HD channels are on the new pairing system they will start targeting the SD boxes. Once most subscribers are on the newer boxes I would expect the HD charge to be dropped (it effectively subsidises the boxes).


  • #11
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    Just googled the potential sky Italy "hack" and it doesn't seem all what its cracked up to be - boxes are suppose to be selling for thousands of euro.


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  • #12
    CL7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 684 ✭✭✭CL7


    That would be the cost to the server though, obv. Looks like it could be fake but it's only a matter of time before a real hack is released.

    irishfeen wrote: »
    internet streaming I take will be their next big area to tackle


    Unless they figure out how to lock down the internet, preventing streaming is pretty much an impossibility. :)


  • #13
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    CL7 wrote: »
    That would be the cost to the server though, obv. Looks like it could be fake but it's only a matter of time before a real hack is released.

    Unless they figure out how to lock down the internet, preventing streaming is pretty much an impossibility. :)
    I suppose we could see tighter controls on streaming websites from internet providers and the likes - if sky can make the encryption system unbreakable then it would be massive in the fight against piracy. To be brutally honest sky and other subscription broadcasters should really look at themselves and ask themselves why people actually go to the bother of doing this - rising prices are unsustainable in the long term and it will come to a point where people will just refuse to pay.


  • #14
    red bellied
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭red bellied


    Sure if Sky stop the cardsharing won't this also stop the illegal streams? , am I correct in thinking that the sites for streaming are sourced from card sharing? I know there will be still plenty of sources available for streaming but may be this will stop it at Sky's end.


  • #15
    lertsnim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,812 ✭✭✭lertsnim


    Most people watching illegal streams will be watching for sport. Most streams for games that I would see are from non UK broadcasters. As much as Sky might try they will never stop it.


  • #16
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    lertsnim wrote: »
    Most people watching illegal streams will be watching for sport. Most streams for games that I would see are from non UK broadcasters. As much as Sky might try they will never stop it.
    Still obviously the English language and the sky feed in particular would be the most sought after for those who indulge in streaming matches. I think the NBC PL feeds will majorly increase off the back of this as direct HD streaming from certain boxes in the UK will probably be more difficult.


  • #17
    radiowaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭radiowaves


    I'm trying to figure where this "before the World Cup" idea came from (I know you're just reporting on what you've read elsewhere Irishfeen).

    I don't doubt that it may well be completed before then but I don't think Sky execs are thinking that way - Sky don't have the World Cup!

    Any World Cup matches in HD on their system will be available on FTA channels (apart from RTÉ Two of course but that would hardly be prioritised).

    I think whoever first posted this may have got confused thanks to Bein Sports' announcement in which they have publicly stated that ALL of their channels (SD and the remaining HDs) will be "secure" by the time the World Cup kicks off. Bein Sports will be covering the World Cup.


  • #18
    MrFrisp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,244 ✭✭✭MrFrisp


    irishfeen wrote: »
    Just googled the potential sky Italy "hack" and it doesn't seem all what its cracked up to be - boxes are suppose to be selling for thousands of euro.



    I have heard that also.

    It has been beaten, so I'm told, but they will only release it to big servers as there is so much money involved.

    A lot of the people that hack it are the same people behind the decryption in the first place.

    Money has a lot of persuasion in that line of business.
    .


  • #19
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    radiowaves wrote: »
    I'm trying to figure where this "before the World Cup" idea came from (I know you're just reporting on what you've read elsewhere Irishfeen).

    I don't doubt that it may well be completed before then but I don't think Sky execs are thinking that way - Sky don't have the World Cup!

    Any World Cup matches in HD on their system will be available on FTA channels (apart from RTÉ Two of course but that would hardly be prioritised).

    I think whoever first posted this may have got confused thanks to Bein Sports' announcement in which they have publicly stated that ALL of their channels (SD and the remaining HDs) will be "secure" by the time the World Cup kicks off. Bein Sports will be covering the World Cup.
    As you say radiowaves i'm just passing on information but it could very well have been leaked from inside sky - its hard enough to understand how the new encryption system will work but i'm taking for granted that the channels already under the new system are basically in "test" phase and if successful (as in no problems reported) then it could be rolled out across the rest of the HD channels overnight.


  • #20
    radiowaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭radiowaves


    irishfeen wrote: »
    As you say radiowaves i'm just passing on information but it could very well have been leaked from inside sky - its hard enough to understand how the new encryption system will work but i'm taking for granted that the channels already under the new system are basically in "test" phase and if successful (as in no problems reported) then it could be rolled out across the rest of the HD channels overnight.

    100% agree with you mate - and the fact that some of the premium channels have now been "knocked out" suggests the next stage is in progress (ie see if any premium rate subscribers are affected).

    I just wonder about the "World Cup" reference - a leak from inside Sky wouldn't reference that. As I said, Sky have no reason to use that as a reference point. (Whereas Bein Sports do.)


  • #21
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    radiowaves wrote: »
    100% agree with you mate - and the fact that some of the premium channels have now been "knocked out" suggests the next stage is in progress (ie see if any premium rate subscribers are affected).

    I just wonder about the "World Cup" reference - a leak from inside Sky wouldn't reference that. As I said, Sky have no reason to use that as a reference point. (Whereas Bein Sports do.)
    Maybe they decided to get their act together alongside Bein Sport and it became a date too for which they decided would work well - I suppose you could say during the WC would actually be the perfect time to roll it out across Sky Sports as viewership would be massively reduced and all major sporting events would have finished so if something did go wrong it wouldn't cause chaos (can you imagine if all genuine subscriptions went down during a massive PL/CL game)


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  • #22
    same ol sh1te
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭same ol sh1te


    It's a game of whack a mole and always will be


  • #23
    lertsnim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,812 ✭✭✭lertsnim


    irishfeen wrote: »
    Still obviously the English language and the sky feed in particular would be the most sought after for those who indulge in streaming matches. I think the NBC PL feeds will majorly increase off the back of this as direct HD streaming from certain boxes in the UK will probably be more difficult.

    There are plenty of English language non sky streams available every week. It's only European providers that are restricted with language options. If I was to find a Sky/BT stream I'd be quick to look for another as their commentary is usually abysmal and I am far from alone. Sky Sports isn't the pinnacle of football broadcasting that many think


  • #24
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    CL7 wrote: »
    Unless they figure out how to lock down the internet, preventing streaming is pretty much an impossibility.

    There is a way to stop Internet card sharing. Which is low bandwidth and NOT streaming. Actual video re-encoding and streaming can't be stopped. At one level you can point a digital camera at an HDTV to get an HD feed even without attacking HDMI's HDCP DRM.

    Obviously I'm not going to explain how Card Sharing works or why I know it can be blocked.

    Either take out a valid subscription or only watch FTA TV. Actually if people boycotted Sky Sports, Setanta BT Pay TV etc, the "sport" Pay TV model would collapse and the matches would be on FTA TV.


  • #25
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,797 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    watty wrote: »
    There is a way to stop Internet card sharing. Which is low bandwidth and NOT streaming. Actual video re-encoding and streaming can't be stopped. At one level you can point a digital camera at an HDTV to get an HD feed even without attacking HDMI's HDCP DRM.

    Obviously I'm not going to explain how Card Sharing works or why I know it can be blocked.

    Either take out a valid subscription or only watch FTA TV. Actually if people boycotted Sky Sports, Setanta BT Pay TV etc, the "sport" Pay TV model would collapse and the matches would be on FTA TV.

    Yeah but then you wouldnt have players like Rooney earning 300K a week.........


  • #26
    basill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭basill


    I would hazard a guess and say that Mr Rooney has very little else going for himself so would take whatever the market rate was.


  • #27
    mikeym
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭mikeym


    Sky 1 - Pirates 1

    Sky will take a 2-1 lead if they block all the HD channels.

    Im not familiar with the encryption process to make a valid comment.


  • #28
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    kippy wrote: »
    Yeah but then you wouldnt have players like Rooney earning 300K a week.........

    If the players and clubs paid a more sensible amount the game quality would improve. The amount of money from "Rights" is turning what used to be a sport into a "celebrity spectacle".


  • #29
    same ol sh1te
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭same ol sh1te


    watty wrote: »
    If the players and clubs paid a more sensible amount the game quality would improve. The amount of money from "Rights" is turning what used to be a sport into a "celebrity spectacle".

    The same argument could even be used, If sky charged a decent price people would pay it and not look for alternatives


  • #30
    Gerry Wicklow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Gerry Wicklow


    It's the age old story, as long as people are foolish enough willing to pay big prices, companies will keep charging them. :(


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  • #31
    mikeym
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭mikeym


    Gerry Wicklow wrote: »
    It's the age old story, as long as people are foolish enough willing to pay big prices, companies will keep charging them. :(

    Sure Sky Movies isnt as popular as it used to be and Sky have a few offers to increase subscribers.

    Netflix is kicking Sky's butt at the moment.


  • #32
    AlanS181824
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭AlanS181824


    That's extremely interesting.

    Thanks for sharing.


  • #33
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    mikeym wrote: »
    Sure Sky Movies isnt as popular as it used to be and Sky have a few offers to increase subscribers.

    Netflix is kicking Sky's butt at the moment.
    Looking through the films they have on every so often this doesn't surprise me - just seems to be repeat after repeat of some very average films - Netflix as you say must be making hay.


  • #34
    snaps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    In this day in age, movie channels should not be a premium package. Its ridiculous sky are still charging extra for movies. The only thing left "Premium" now a days is sport, which is way overpriced.


  • #35
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,042 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    So is this the death knell for the DReambox and card sharing?


  • #36
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    NIMAN wrote: »
    So is this the death knell for the DReambox and card sharing?
    With sky still having the old SD boxes in use it will only be the HD channels which will be lost but if sky decided to give everyone HD boxes then yes they could transfer all channels (SD & HD) over to the new encryption system and probably stop it (at least for a while) over night.


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  • #37
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭flutered


    do not romania broadcast most of it programs in their native language, ie english, its not impossible to recieve that feed.


  • #38
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭flutered


    NIMAN wrote: »
    So is this the death knell for the DReambox and card sharing?

    on one side you have the muntiple(s), saying i am keeping all this for themselves, on the other side you have the sub sellers saying that no you dont we require a little from it also, then you have the guy who says i am the best hacker in the world, i can beeat your experts, he will take things so far, then you have another bloke who will take it faurther, and so on until its open season once again.


  • #39
    same ol sh1te
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭same ol sh1te


    The encryption has been cracked on Sky Italia HD (identical setup, their channels disappeared months ago), but for now the hackers are only selling it to the highest bidding pay servers. Sky UK will follow, but pay servers will do nothing in the UK until Sky plays their cards and completes their rollout, which could be the end of the year. The HD channels are disappearing one or two a week, every thursday, this gives Sky a chance to upgrade the HD boxes that have suddenly stopped clearing the channel, the Thompson one that doesn't take their new software. If you are a paying Sky customer and have a Thompson box you'll be missing about 10 channels and will be forced to upgrade, so watch what you have recorded.


  • #40
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    The topic at hand was discussed in detail last year for anyone interested. There is some good reading into the mechanics of it all.


  • #41
    radiowaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭radiowaves


    NIMAN wrote: »
    So is this the death knell for the DReambox and card sharing?

    There's more to satellite than Sky.... ;)


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  • #42
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,702 ✭✭✭flutered


    mikeym wrote: »
    Sure Sky Movies isnt as popular as it used to be and Sky have a few offers to increase subscribers.

    Netflix is kicking Sky's butt at the moment.

    i used yahoo search for free movies downloads, there are many to choose from, most have 2014 movies advailable, so one can download and play later or download and watch, the quality is quite good, sky movies are nothing to write home about, i stopped using them years ago, repeats of repeats.


  • #43
    Oat23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,369 ✭✭✭✭Oat23


    I don't use Sky UK or Sky IT, but I'd love if they blocked off all SD & HD channels. Every hacker involved in CS would be working together to break through the new encryption and all the effort of replacing boxes would be for nothing. I would be surprised if it lasted more than a couple of weeks.

    IPTV is the future anyway.


  • #44
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,042 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    radiowaves wrote: »
    There's more to satellite than Sky.... ;)

    Of course there is, but I am guessing the Dreamboxs running Sky on card sharing is the reason for this move.


  • #45
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Oat23 wrote: »
    I don't use Sky UK or Sky IT, but I'd love if they blocked off all SD & HD channels. Every hacker involved in CS would be working together to break through the new encryption and all the effort of replacing boxes would be for nothing. I would be surprised if it lasted more than a couple of weeks.

    IPTV is the future anyway.

    Plenty of the techniques currently being deployed in the UK have already been done succesfully in Australia and Europe. I am surprised it has taken Sky UK so long. The good thing is that HD extra costs will be a thing of the past when they replace the SD receivers, which is the next step, at considerable cost.

    IPTV is already the new piracy without Control Words. CS started as an underground mechanism for bypassing multiroom costs. It should never have become the monster it is today.


  • #46
    radiowaves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭radiowaves


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Of course there is, but I am guessing the Dreamboxs running Sky on card sharing is the reason for this move.

    But what you said was:
    NIMAN wrote: »
    So is this the death knell for the DReambox and card sharing?

    So, no, it won't be the "death-knell" for Dreamboxes and cardsharing because, as I said, there is much more to satellite than Sky ;)


  • #47
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,042 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    You know what I meant.


  • #48
    snaps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    When the time comes to swap the SD boxes, I would say it will be done for free. Then sky can move over to dvbs2 for all transmissions on their platform.
    Once people have HD boxes the carrot will be there being dangled for them to subscribe to the HD pack, so I would say the HD pack is a long way away from being let go!


  • #49
    IrishHomer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭IrishHomer


    snaps wrote: »
    When the time comes to swap the SD boxes, I would say it will be done for free. Then sky can move over to dvbs2 for all transmissions on their platform.
    Once people have HD boxes the carrot will be there being dangled for them to subscribe to the HD pack, so I would say the HD pack is a long way away from being let go!

    I disagree, I think sky will be rolling out Ultra HD (UHD) shortly and that will the be the sub to replace regular hd so regular HD would become standard


  • #50
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    There is almost no UHD content and almost no-one has a set, also you need about 60" minimum only 2m away to appreciate it. They may do a channel as a gimmick.

    It will be as damp as 3D (which is only Victorian Stereoscopic system and not 3D at all).


  • #51
    irishfeen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭irishfeen


    I wonder could we see the migration of Sky Sports/Box Office channels to the new encryption system after this Saturday's big boxing match - from Monday on they don't have much blockbuster sport so it could very well be the perfect time.


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