Homosexuality as a Sin(off topic from other thread)

MatthewVII · 25-02-2009 11:57PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

The objective observer is not so objective - he is prejudiced against God and for his own sinful ways. He will always justify himself against God.

Either that, or he sees no reason why God sees him as a filthy little sinner. The concept that Christians have of all humans being awful, wicked etc is pretty foundationless if one looks at us from a non-biblical perspective. There is no reason that anyone would think humans are inherently all evil without the Bible telling us so, and hence see no reason why we should believe it.

wolfsbane wrote:

In fact, you know He does - down in your deeper heart/mind. You have suppressed that fact, but it is evident when you get worked up about His existence.

Go on, pull the other one! Great stuff.

wolfsbane wrote:

I never confuse arbitary with infinitely holy, wise and good. Just because I cannot fully understand all the Master does, is no reason to question Him. I assume you let the pilot get on with flying the plane even if you know little about how to fly it yourself.

Of course it is. If you were an Irish citizen around the time of Charlie Haughey, you'd want to know what the master was up to, how he was influencing your future and what his effect his actions had on the wellbeing of those under him. History has proven time and time again that blind faith in our leaders is unwise, no matter how perfect and godlike they profess to be. A simple reassurance that they know best is never enough. They have to be transparent and accountable or else you'll follow them off a cliff whilst still solidly convinced they know what is best for you.

wolfsbane · 28-02-2009 09:13PM

MrPudding wrote: »

I actually did some testing last night, and I think there actually might be something in it. I prayed for the sun to rise and for me and my family to wake up. All of these things came to pass, so result. I also prayed for a safe journey to work and that work would be OK. Again these things came to pass. I prayed for a couple of other things, like roast ham in the canteen. They did not happen, but I will continue to pray for the ham and hopefully my prayer will be answered some time in the future. As you say yourself, some things take a bit longer.

MrP

Yes, your scenario could be explained by the natural course of events or by God's intervention. Nothing distinctive. The obvious test is where extremely unlikely events occur in answer to prayer - not just once or twice, but several times I have experienced this. Multitudes of us have.

That tells me God hears and answers in all the ways I outlined.

One other thing: God is not at our beck and call. He is not obliged to answer the prayer of the ungodly. So it is no use praying to see if prayer works when your heart is not sincere in seeking Him. But He does hear the prayer of those who are.

wolfsbane · 28-02-2009 09:24PM

MatthewVII said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The objective observer is not so objective - he is prejudiced against God and for his own sinful ways. He will always justify himself against God.
Either that, or he sees no reason why God sees him as a filthy little sinner. The concept that Christians have of all humans being awful, wicked etc is pretty foundationless if one looks at us from a non-biblical perspective. There is no reason that anyone would think humans are inherently all evil without the Bible telling us so, and hence see no reason why we should believe it.

I see an awful lot of murder, theft, rape, oppression in the world. Even those who live relatively decent lives are guilty of many instances of exploitation of their neighbours. I'm not including here the sins directly against God, just against our fellowman.

I don't see the Paradise you do. Obviously it is our evaluation of the blackness of these sins that gives rise to our opposite conclusions about human nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
I never confuse arbitary with infinitely holy, wise and good. Just because I cannot fully understand all the Master does, is no reason to question Him. I assume you let the pilot get on with flying the plane even if you know little about how to fly it yourself.
Of course it is. If you were an Irish citizen around the time of Charlie Haughey, you'd want to know what the master was up to, how he was influencing your future and what his effect his actions had on the wellbeing of those under him. History has proven time and time again that blind faith in our leaders is unwise, no matter how perfect and godlike they profess to be. A simple reassurance that they know best is never enough. They have to be transparent and accountable or else you'll follow them off a cliff whilst still solidly convinced they know what is best for you.

I agree with that. It was only the example of where you do trust an expert that I wanted to show. If you do with a pilot, a fallible man, why not with God, the infinitely wise Creator?

wolfsbane · 28-02-2009 09:42PM

For an honest treatment of the Bible's position on homosexuality, see this by the atheist homosexual, Matthew Parris:

No, God would not have approved of gay bishops
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article861430.ece

There is much greater hope that such a man will come to see the truth of God and be converted, than those religious hypocrites who justify their sins by twisting the Scriptures.

No wonder the Lord told the Parable of the Two Sons:
Matthew 21:28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’ 29 He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I go, sir,’ but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?”
They said to Him, “The first.”
Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

MatthewVII · 02-03-2009 12:36AM

wolfsbane wrote: »

I see an awful lot of murder, theft, rape, oppression in the world. Even those who live relatively decent lives are guilty of many instances of exploitation of their neighbours. I'm not including here the sins directly against God, just against our fellowman.

I don't see the Paradise you do. Obviously it is our evaluation of the blackness of these sins that gives rise to our opposite conclusions about human nature.

I don't see paradise. I just don't see Hell on Earth like you do.

wolfsbane wrote:

I agree with that. It was only the example of where you do trust an expert that I wanted to show. If you do with a pilot, a fallible man, why not with God, the infinitely wise Creator?

I go with a pilot because he has gone through years of training to qualify for his job, is paid and kept by the airline company to apply his expertise to the best of his abilities and has every obvious reason to avoid my fiery death at every possible opportunity. We know nothing about God, if he's fit for the job, what his motivation is etc. There is no obvious reason to trust that he has our best interests at heart.

MrPudding · 03-03-2009 05:56PM

***Update*** Got the ham yesterday. Perhaps there is something in it.

MrP

Homosexuality as a Sin(off topic from other thread)

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