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6 years for a life??

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  • 18-06-2007 8:41pm
    #1
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,791 ✭✭✭✭


    There's something seriously wrong in this country. Mad, bad, insane, diminshed this that or the other, surely a life is worth more than 6 years?
    He bludgeoned her with a lump hammer and stabbed her dozens of times with a scissors

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0618/odwyerm.html


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    #2
    flogen
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭flogen


    hmm... moved to Legal Discussion (mods, feel free to bounce back if not suitable)


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    #3
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    After hours or polictics tbh.


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    #4
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    What do you suggest?

    How do you measure these things?


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    #5
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,791 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    johnnyskeleton wrote:
    What do you suggest?

    How do you measure these things?

    I was hoping I would get some suggestions on this sentence. That's why I posted. Personally I believe the guy should be kept away from society for a very long time, mental ilness or NOT, society needs protection from him.
    I also believe he murdered the girl, not committed manslaughter as the jury awarded.


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    #6
    Hobart
    Registered Users Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Hobart


    walshb wrote:
    ....
    I also believe he murdered the girl, not committed manslaughter as the jury awarded.
    Committing murder and being found guilty of murder are two very different things. Without commenting on the specifics of the case, if a person is believed to have diminished responsibility and is found guilty of killing somebody well then it follows that he/she cannot be found guilty of murder (I'm open to correction on this, but this would be my reading of the it).

    If the court believes that this person had diminished responsibility and did indeed take his sisters life, well then, manslaughter is the correct ruling in this circumstance.

    With a guilty manslaughter verdict it then becomes the responsibility of the Judge to decide upon the appropriate sentence. He can impose anything from a suspended sentence to life for manslaughter.

    Given the fact that I don't know the exact details of this crime, I could not really comment on the sentence given, but the length of this sentence for this type of crime, does not surprise me.


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    #7
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,791 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Hobart wrote:
    Committing murder and being found guilty of murder are two very different things. Without commenting on the specifics of the case, if a person is believed to have diminished responsibility and is found guilty of killing somebody well then it follows that he/she cannot be found guilty of murder (I'm open to correction on this, but this would be my reading of the it).

    If the court believes that this person had diminished responsibility and did indeed take his sisters life, well then, manslaughter is the correct ruling in this circumstance.

    With a guilty manslaughter verdict it then becomes the responsibility of the Judge to decide upon the appropriate sentence. He can impose anything from a suspended sentence to life for manslaughter.

    Given the fact that I don't know the exact details of this crime, I could not really comment on the sentence given, but the length of this sentence for this type of crime, does not surprise me.
    Hobart, I'm with you on this one. Definitely here in Ireland there have been far too many people getting away with manslaughter verdicts when it's blatantly obvious to any sane person that they commited murder. That's the main problem I found with this case. He was definitely off his head IMO to do what he did, but what he did was he murdered a person, plain and simple and got off with murder because he was 'off his head'.....Like I said I believe he was off his head, but that doesn't make it manslaughter. He committed murder whilst off his head. Sorry but that's not good enough and he should be put away for a long long time


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    #8
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,715 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    This type of discussion is only really suited to tCN, in my opinion. However, I can't see amp taking kindly to it.

    Moved to AH. Bake 'em away toys.


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    #9
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Its not like this was a gang land killing or anything:

    "A 21-year-old man has been sentenced to six years in prison for the manslaughter of his 17-year-old sister on the grounds of diminished responsibility."

    "new legislation governing insanity came into force last year"

    "[his Mother] said Patrick had had no control over events the night he killed his sister."


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    #10
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Zillah wrote:

    "new legislation governing insanity came into force last year"


    lol, that seems kind of funny to me. The guy was insane so he should be let back into society earlier???


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    #11
    chump
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭chump


    Call Me Jimmy wrote:
    lol, that seems kind of funny to me. The guy was insane so he should be let back into society earlier???

    Do you have any sympathy for him or his family?
    Do you think he regrets what he did?
    Do you see how it might be possible for someone to be rehabilitated?

    Do you actually think?


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    #12
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    chump wrote:

    Do you actually think I am a smug prick?

    Sure.


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    #13
    oneeyedsnake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 175 ✭✭oneeyedsnake


    I don't really think that people with mental illness should be treated any differently than normal sane people.If their meds aren't working and they are going around killing people then I am afraid that they should be locked yup for the rest of their life with no right to appeal.I mean look at it this way:if I was blind I couldn't rock up to ryanair headquaters and demand a job as a pilot,similary if if was paralysed I couldn't turn up to my local football club and say right lads I fancy the right wing.The fact is these people of psychotic and therefore have lost the right to live in society.


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    #14
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    walshb wrote:
    I also believe he murdered the girl, not committed manslaughter as the jury awarded.

    Surely in order for a killing to be deemed murder, there has to be evidence of premeditation. The guy was experiencing some kind of mental breakdown and he killed his sister during this "episode", so it couldn't have been premeditated. For that to be the case, he would have planned it well in advance, and according to those who assessed him, that wasn't the case. He went into the kitchen with the weapons and when his sister saw him, she laughed, thinking he was just messing around.

    I don't think he should be sent to prison, surely that will only cause his already fragile mental health to deteriorate even more? I wonder why he isn't being sent to a secure psychiatric unit?
    oneeyedsnake wrote:
    I don't really think that people with mental illness should be treated any differently than normal sane people.If their meds aren't working and they are going around killing people then I am afraid that they should be locked yup for the rest of their life with no right to appeal.I mean look at it this way:if I was blind I couldn't rock up to ryanair headquaters and demand a job as a pilot,similary if if was paralysed I couldn't turn up to my local football club and say right lads I fancy the right wing.The fact is these people of psychotic and therefore have lost the right to live in society.

    As long as attitudes like that exist, people with mental illnesses will continue to hide what they're going through due to a fear of speaking out, which means no treatment, which could lead to serious consequences.
    Have you any familiarity with mental illness - for example, has it affected a loved one?


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    #15
    oneeyedsnake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 175 ✭✭oneeyedsnake


    Dudess wrote:
    Surely in order for a killing to be deemed murder, there has to be evidence of premeditation. The guy was experiencing some kind of mental breakdown and he killed his sister during this "episode", so it couldn't have been premeditated. For that to be the case, he would have planned it well in advance, and according to those who assessed him, that wasn't the case. He went into the kitchen with the weapons and when his sister saw him, she laughed, thinking he was just messing around.

    I don't think he should be sent to prison, surely that will only cause his already fragile mental health to deteriorate even more? I wonder why he isn't being sent to a secure psychiatric unit?



    As long as attitudes like that exist, people with mental illnesses will continue to hide what they're going through due to a fear of speaking out, which means no treatment, which could lead to serious consequences.
    Have you any familiarity with mental illness - for example, has it affected a loved one?

    Yes I am familiar with mental illness. I am studying it as part of my degree and my grandfather died from complications associated with a mental illness.In some cases it is impossible to cure mental illnesses, much like it is impossible to cure AIDS. These people should be locked away from society, I know these sounds harsh but it is what is referred to as "tough ****". People are born everyday with disabilities which have varying consequences on how there lives pan out, for these psychotic individuals it unfortunately means a life time of sedatives and imprisonment.


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    #16
    G&T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 303 ✭✭G&T


    Suppose the evidence from the family would be taken into consideration,
    re. impact report.

    They have already lost a daughter maybe they dont want their son to be put away for life.

    His family will have to decide the best course of action for him when he is released,treatment at home or in an institution.

    Im not sure if there are brothers or sisters still at home,
    would be wary myself of letting him home,if it was a moment of madness who's to say it wouldn't happen again.

    As odd as it seems the parents will probably do the right thing by him,
    he is their child and he is sick.


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    #17
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Dudess wrote:
    Surely in order for a killing to be deemed murder, there has to be evidence of premeditation.

    Gibberish. So I can kill anyone, so long as I don't plan it, and claim it was just a bit of a 'mental' episode?

    The concept of 'diminished responsibility' is a cop-out. We are all fully responsible for our own actions, no matter what our mental state. He should be in a box for the rest of his life.


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    #18
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Nermal, are YOU familiar with mental illness? For example, has it affected a loved one?


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    #19
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Dudess wrote:
    Nermal, are YOU familiar with mental illness? For example, has it affected a loved one?

    Does it need to have in order for me to understand this case?


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    #20
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Yep, because then you might understand the horror and trauma of severe psychiatric disorders for those who have to live with them - those directly affected, and their families.

    The guy's own family don't believe he should be incarcerated.

    "He should be in a box for the rest of his life" - stigma? What stigma? :rolleyes:


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    #21
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Dudess wrote:
    The guy's own family don't believe he should be incarcerated.

    What relevance has that? If he killed me, would my family have say the same thing?
    Dudess wrote:
    "He should be in a box for the rest of his life" - stigma? What stigma? :rolleyes:

    I'm not stigmatising people with mental illnesses, I'm stigmatising murderers. They should never return to society.


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    #22
    heyjude
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭heyjude


    G&T wrote:
    Suppose the evidence from the family would be taken into consideration,
    re. impact report.

    They have already lost a daughter maybe they dont want their son to be put away for life.

    His family will have to decide the best course of action for him when he is released,treatment at home or in an institution.

    Im not sure if there are brothers or sisters still at home,
    would be wary myself of letting him home,if it was a moment of madness who's to say it wouldn't happen again.

    As odd as it seems the parents will probably do the right thing by him,
    he is their child and he is sick.

    His 6 year jail sentence dates from 30 November 2004, which means that even without remission/good behaviour/parole etc, he could be out in a little over 3 years, with remission he could be out next year.

    And while I accept that his family aren't mental health professionals, it is unsettling that they will be making the decisions about what is best for him, they didn't take any action after his previous violent outbursts and left him on his own with his younger sister at the time of the killing.

    If they look benignly on his actions in the future, then he could be left unsupervised and free to come and go as he pleases, as soon as he is released.

    I sure wouldn't want this guy anywhere near any of my loved ones after his release. What if he has another episode ten years from now, last time he killed his beloved sister with no provocation, what would he do with a stranger ?


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    #23
    oneeyedsnake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 175 ✭✭oneeyedsnake


    Dudess wrote:
    Nermal, are YOU familiar with mental illness? For example, has it affected a loved one?

    It dosen't make any difference who is familiar with mental illness dudess.
    The guy is a complete psycho:he smashed his own sister to death with a hammer!There is no way this guy can ever be let loose on the public again.The sentence is a disgrace and is just another example of how this country is going to complete pot.


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    #24
    chump
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭chump


    oneeyedsnake wrote:
    It dosen't make any difference who is familiar with mental illness dudess.
    The guy is a complete psycho:he smashed his own sister to death with a hammer!There is no way this guy can ever be let loose on the public again.The sentence is a disgrace and is just another example of how this country is going to complete pot.

    So in summary you believe someone who suffers a mental episode/breakdown is incapable of redemption?

    There is nothing that can be done to eliminate/diminish the likelihood of a further episode/breakdown?

    That no system can be put in place to monitor their mental stability?

    You believe all these things?


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    #25
    G&T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 303 ✭✭G&T


    The more I think about it the more I think the judge has given the guy a 6 year sentence and the family a life sentance.

    If he was to harm someone else they will feel they are to blame since they will be responsible for him on his release.


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    #26
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I think there's a little confusion here. I agree that the sentence is too short. In my humble opinion, it appears he should be placed in a secure psychiatric unit for a much longer period of time (although for life, I don't know). What I have a problem with is people saying that those with mental illness should be treated the same way as those who are sane. I'm shocked at that attitude.


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    #27
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭Nermal


    chump wrote:
    There is nothing that can be done to eliminate/diminish the likelihood of a further episode/breakdown?

    Even if you can make the likelihood zero, he murdered someone. He didn't burgle a house, use harsh language or get a parking fine, he battered someone to death with a hammer. Why does he deserve another chance?


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    #28
    4Xcut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭4Xcut


    chump wrote:
    Do you see how it might be possible for someone to be rehabilitated?

    First i would like to state that i do believe it possible to rehabilitate some people. HOWEVER, prison is not rehabilitative. It is a psychological tool, designed to control people with fear. It uses the fear of usings one's liberty to scare people into not breaking the law. It was a job it did quite well untill sentences astarted becoming so lenient too i might add.


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    #29
    dregin
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    A guy stabbed a girl in Cavan some time last year (killing her) and apparently he's already out.


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    #30
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Dudess wrote:
    What I have a problem with is people saying that those with mental illness should be treated the same way as those who are sane. I'm shocked at that attitude.

    In respect of their guilt, they should be the same, because they committed the same act. That the odd neuron was misfiring should not have a bearing on their sentence. If you wish him to spend the rest of his existence in a padded box rather than a box, that seems acceptable. So long as he never exits it.


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    #31
    G&T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 303 ✭✭G&T


    I think they are talking about degree's of insanity,

    Can a person who is insane be cured and no longer a threat?

    If you have one insane moment should you be branded insane for life?

    In this case I think he should be assesed further in a secure environment,more answers are needed.


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