Poll concerning SS/WW2 related threads

o1s1n · 10-12-2007 9:19pm #1

This is an issue which has been going on here for quite some time and really needs to be addressed.

After a good bit of discussion with other moderators, myself and Kdouglas are stilll a bit undecided as how to deal with these threads. So we're opening it to a poll to get some feedback.

The general consensus so far seems to be that certain elements of ww2 German military simulation are okay in given circumstances. Like a milsim event. However, guys running around dressed up as SS officers for the sake of being SS officers is not.

Going to copy over Kdouglases post as he put it very well.

kdouglas wrote: »

the main issues i see with this are public perception of airsoft, and offending people

as it is, airsoft is getting some bad press from the media mainly focusing on the "wrong type" using airsoft for illegal purposes, our common answer to this is they can just as easily use a baseball bat/golf club or even a real gun, the intent is still there, if a reporter decided to turn up to an airsoft site for a day's game undercover and saw people there in full SS outfits, it could turn a possibly positive article about a good days game into a political rant about how we are all a bunch of nazi-wannabe's

secondly, airsoft is one of the most diverse sports in the world, people from all backgrounds and walks of life play side by side and against eachother with little to no politics and zero discrimination, if you were a polish or jewish person turning up to spend a day playing a game with your friends, how would you feel when you see a guy there in full SS uniform? especially so if you had family affected by it?

in reality, both of these issues do concern people actually turning up at an airsoft site to play, therefore whether or not they are allowed to play is up to the site owner, but they are two of the main reasons for me that it should not be allowed

however, personally i'm not offended by the image of the swastika and don't have any problem with people discussing it in principle, but i can understand the need for some sensitivity regarding the issue

having just got off the phone to the site owner an airsoft site, he said his policy will be if they are a re-enactment group and want to play or re-enact during a game every now and again, then that's ok, but no swastika's or the like
however, if they are just a bunch of lads getting a team together and want to run arround in an SS uniform on a weekly basis, then that's a no go

either way, he will have to remain vigilant of other people's opinions

I'll just conclude by saying

This concerns discussion on boards.ie only. It has nothing to do with airsoft sites, players or teams in general.

Posting up images of Swastikas, Lightening bolts or other such insignia will never be okay.

The Master · 10-12-2007 9:28pm

o1s1n wrote: »

The general consensus so far seems to be that certain elements of ww2 German military simulation are okay in given circumstances. Like a milsim event. However, guys running around dressed up as SS officers for the sake of being SS officers is not.

This pretty much sums up how I feel about it.
Common sense as far as I'm concerned not just SS stuff but any offensive
uniform/symbols or outfits

kdouglas · 10-12-2007 9:34pm

Also, a point to note:

This thread is for voting or commenting on the poll only, not a discussion regarding the original topic.

Lemming · 10-12-2007 9:42pm

I voted for full discussion for a couple of reasons (note I'm not discussing, simply pointing out my reasoning for my vote):

history has often shown that large-brush-stroking of groups as simply 'evil' is rarely accurate and very much down to indoctrinated emotional response.

Secondly, where does one draw the line? WW2 German military? How about WW2 US/British bomber crew uniforms/insignia? IDF uniforms/insignia? Russian afghan campaign uniforms/insignia, etc. Where does the line become hypocrisy?

In short, I'm for allowing discussion, but applying a liberal dosage of common-f*cking-sense where needed.

Evolute · 10-12-2007 10:39pm

Lemming wrote: »

I voted for full discussion for a couple of reasons (note I'm not discussing, simply pointing out my reasoning for my vote):

history has often shown that large-brush-stroking of groups as simply 'evil' is rarely accurate and very much down to indoctrinated emotional response.

Secondly, where does one draw the line? WW2 German military? How about WW2 US/British bomber crew uniforms/insignia? IDF uniforms/insignia? Russian afghan campaign uniforms/insignia, etc. Where does the line become hypocrisy?

In short, I'm for allowing discussion, but applying a liberal dosage of common-f*cking-sense where needed.

I gotta agree with both sides of the arguement but i lean more to the side of no SS for obvious reasons as it can be offensive to people who are jewish and so on Etc. Etc.

Discussion is all well and good needs common sense but all it takes is some idiot to go on about how the rike was the best on the forum and someone to see it and give us all a bad name

Boston · 10-12-2007 10:53pm

Its difficult to surmise my opinion on this, but I'll try/. I am not a member of the British army, the ghosts are not members of the US army, the stray dogs are not members of the soviet army and lads running around with SS uniforms are not 1940s Nazis. This point really needs to be stressed I feel as it is often lost in these arguments. For some people they will only ever see the guns and the uniforms and forever associate us with war and death. Before coming down hard on SS themed teams we really need to look closely at how we ourselves are viewed. When I put on my British uniform I do not feel I am embodying their values or ideas and glorifying the actions of the British military, I'm merely placing a game.

Lemming, its obvious people have no cop on. As such relying on it would be a mistake from the get go.

Masada · 10-12-2007 10:53pm

ive voted "

Discussion of any aspect of WW2 German military should be allowed

reason being that a large portion of the argument against wearing such uniforms is related to the offence that it would cause to germans/jews others effected etc,

every war has victims and i havent heard ONE person moaning about the british uniforms worn by some even though we as a nation "directly" suffered at the hands of the english, why is that acceptable and the german ones arnt? ive no objection to the british uniform being used in just the same way i dont object to the german one., we dont have a hissey fit about it so who cares about what some uptight godsh*te who's looking for an arguement would think about it, by now WW2 should be in the distance and there is very few people left who are directly affected by the actions of germany then, by that i mean most people of that time are either dead, dying or were too young to remember anyway. it was only 30 years since we have british atrosities in ireland but times have moved on and the country is at peace for once and is a better place,. The controversary that have gone on here in the last few days is from our side, exactly the same as what we condemn from reporters who give airosft a bad light, its over reaction,. lets hope this whole issue is put to rest altogether this time round though.,
Sorry if this has offended some but its just my 2c.,;)

Gatling · 10-12-2007 11:06pm

at the end of the day it was a war and there was 3 sides who wiped out millions of ppl,there was some front line units that done some nasty things ,but you cant have ww2 teams and say oh you cant be certain units ,its peoples choice as who they want to base there gear on ,the best looking ww2 uniforms were all german ,

i voted for full discussion,

ambro25 · 10-12-2007 11:07pm

Voted No.

For 2 reasons:

(i) Firstly, for personal reasons (dating back some decades, obviously enough).

(ii) Secondly, and I'll be branded as suffering a bad case of blinders by most for this, directly in relation to (i) above because the only context in which I would (personally) tolerate it is within a reenactment context which (having attended Salute etc.) I consider a pursuit distinct from airsoft. Not mutually exclusive pursuits, note - but distinct.

Hivemind187 · 10-12-2007 11:10pm

In my opinion there is no justifiable reason to portray yourself as a member of a specific unit unless you are attempting to enjoy their reputation vicariously.

johnboyire · 10-12-2007 11:10pm

i am all in favour of reinactment but the ss uniform is beyond the limit it would be considered a hate symbol, and should not be compared to other armies of today despite however bad they are, walk with a city in germany in an ss uniform and then in an american one for example and you will see the difference,

the whole ss thing is really in bad taste i personally love reading about the german military in world war 2 and about the weapons and tactics and their is plenty of other units to choose from aside from the ss i mean whats next getting younger airsofters to reinact the hitler youth!!

its time some people stop being selfish be more considerate and have some pride in themselves before they are the next headline in the local rag,

iceage · 10-12-2007 11:13pm

Is it really a question of insignia rather than uniform? Its not so much the rather smart black uniform, its the swastika's and lightning bolts and deathheads that are gonna piss someone off, jewish or not..I see your point vtec, not so much the british DPM but if I turned up with a cherry beret and para wings, I could fully understand you being put out of sorts!

I mean, in these times, I'll throw this out there, Blackwater loadouts, 5:11's baseball caps, with bearclaw logo? would this cause offence?

Boston · 10-12-2007 11:13pm

Although I did vote for completely open discussion people need to pull their heads out of their arse and cut out this "I don't care so why should you" crap. soldiers do allot of horrible things and some people will always associate anything military in nature with negativity, nothing we can do about that. I'm not even going to try and say those people are wrong. If you can't accept that much about others views of the world, then you don't have even a tenth of the common sense lemming made reference to.

iceage · 10-12-2007 11:16pm

Gatling wrote: »

at the end of the day it was a war and there was 3 sides who wiped out millions of ppl,there was some front line units that done some nasty things ,but you cant have ww2 teams and say oh you cant be certain units ,its peoples choice as who they want to base there gear on ,the best looking ww2 uniforms were all german ,

i voted for full discussion,

3 sides? british, americans, germans, russians, japenese..:)

Shiva · 10-12-2007 11:56pm

At the end of the day this boils down to the image Airsoft in general may receive if some Airsofters are wearing Nazi insignia.

Yes...the Americans, British, Israelis, Russians, Vietnamese, etc, etc, ad nauseum, committed atrocities in various wars through the ages.

Ask any member of the public to name the most vile wartime atrocity and the death camps and Nazi's will almost certainly be the one they mention.

Whether you personally find the images offensive, whether or not you believe that all armies have a chequered past, and whether or not the holocaust was the worst atrocity or not, the point is - MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE IT WAS.

Get your head out of your arses - if you wear Nazi party insignia, YOU WILL GET AIRSOFT A BAD NAME. It doesnt matter how enlightened, educated, logical or forgiving YOU are - the general public will not see past the Deathshead, swastika and any other insignia or acronym.

I hate political correctness in all its forms, but when it comes to a choice between observing a little PC-ness or letting airsoft get a bad name, its a no-brainer.

kdouglas · 10-12-2007 11:59pm

very well said Shiva

Hivemind187 · 11-12-2007 12:00am

+1 Shiva

Mweelrea · 11-12-2007 12:01am

Shiva wrote: »

At the end of the day this boils down to the image Airsoft in general may receive if some Airsofters are wearing Nazi insignia.

Yes...the Americans, British, Israelis, Russians, Vietnamese, etc, etc, ad nauseum, committed atrocities in various wars through the ages.

Ask any member of the public to name the most vile wartime atrocity and the death camps and Nazi's will almost certainly be the one they mention.

Whether you personally find the images offensive, whether or not you believe that all armies have a chequered past, and whether or not the holocaust was the worst atrocity or not, the point is - MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE IT WAS.

Get your head out of your arses - if you wear Nazi party insignia, YOU WILL GET AIRSOFT A BAD NAME. It doesnt matter how enlightened, educated, logical or forgiving YOU are - the general public will not see past the Deathshead, swastika and any other insignia or acronym.

I hate political correctness in all its forms, but when it comes to a choice between observing a little PC-ness or letting airsoft get a bad name, its a no-brainer.

well said shiva!
while german uniform and the like are great for milsims we have to look at the wider picture the media is against airsoft at the moment and pictures of guys in SS uniform running around with airsoft guns will certinly not help the situation. Come on its not an image we want to be given to our sport

iceage · 11-12-2007 12:13am

+2 shiva..nicely put. tryed, but couldn't have put it better myself!:cool:

Spetzcong · 11-12-2007 12:13am

I voted for the middle option, it was either that or a full on no. In the end I decided that there are some circumstances in which I think it would be acceptable to wear or discuss the wearing of WW2 German uniforms. In the context of a milsim game/historical reenactment etc I think it would be ok, in general I think it's dodgy. As has been said above it's all about public perception and the Nazis did some of the most evil things the modern world has seen so being perceived as even being indifferent to them will not go down well with the public.

I would also like to point out to people who say that WW2 was years ago hence nazi symbolism etc should be fine now, that neo-fascism and far right groups are a very real problem all across Europe, including in Ireland, and that these groups in many cases have adopted WW2 era Nazi symbols and emblems to represent themselves.

All we would need is for one journalist to get wind of an SS airsoft team and Joe Public is going to be calling for an outright ban on the basis of far-right paramilitary groups using the sport for training.

Not to mention the fact that if we as airsofters decide that a Nazi themed team is ok, we are leaving ourselves open for a far-right group to use us for training and hide behind the cover of just being a 'nazi themed airsoft team'. It sounds a little implausible but stranger things have happened.

Boston · 11-12-2007 12:18am

I'd like to remind everyone that the question is "should discussion be allowed", not "should someone people allowed play on a site in an ss uniform". Are people seriously making an argument here that by not allowing discussions it will follow that people won't set these teams up and therefore the teams won't be able to reflect badly?

bullets · 11-12-2007 12:20am

I for one Love the Look of the German WWII uniforms and the insignia!!!
Several times I have been at antique fares and wanted to buy an Iron Cross
or SS belt buckle simply because I liked what they looked like and nothing
else. I also love the look of other Military stuff like Guns/Bullets/Shells/landmines/
missles/tanks etc etc and would buy them if I had the cash.

Now lets be clear. I love the "Look" of the uniform not any stigma that
the imagery of the uniform may be linked to.

Now I whole heartedly cant stand what the Nazi's did and stood for and
I could go on and on and on and on about moral's and whats good and whats
bad etc etc etc. It does not make a blind bit of difference if the people
that wore the uniform back in the day were evil or saints to me. I still
like the "look" or ascetics of the uniform and nothing is going to change that.

If I wish to wear any type of uniform regardless of country or origin
for re-enactment and or roleplay than thats my choice and it would not
be to glorify anything.

If ya take a look at airsoft international a month or two ago you can
see people dressed up as taliban re-enacting tora-bora and nobody
seemed to take issue with that at all. Yet the mere mention of German uniforms get threads locked. You see people running around during skirmishes
dressed in nearly every other type of uniform from around the world emulating as best they can the army/unit of their choice. If you look at the gallerys
on the Irish Webpages you will seem American Flags donned on peoples
uniforms/camo and I have yet to see anyone take issue with that.
People seem to accept every other nationality available regardless of what their country's army's may have done in the present or the past with the exception being certain German uniforms.

Airsoft is is partially about suspension of dis-belief a type of roleplay
People have no problems emulating bad or good guys from Films or computer
games yet when it comes to doing the same from real world history somehow
all of a sudden a problem arises and people all of a sudden start getting over
the top politically correct and self righteous. That I don't understand.

One last point before I sign out for the night.
If your re-enacting a scenario in airsoft ether a mil-sim of a real world event
or a fictional or made up event or scenario your more that likely going
to have the goodies vs the baddies.

If doing a real world mil sim you cant just outright ban the bad guys or
ban any teams that want to "look" like the bad-guys whatever look or
uniform that the so called bad guys may wear.

~B

Spetzcong · 11-12-2007 12:22am

Well if we don't allow discussion of it, or at least restrict discussion of it then at least if some journo doing some research (it might happen

)for the next big 'Ban Airsoft Now' article won't find out about people dressing up as nazis on here.

Boston · 11-12-2007 12:25am

So they won't find negative comments and are more likely to find dedicated websites promoting such activity?

Spetzcong · 11-12-2007 12:29am

So we do allow it, and then have threads about starting SS teams popping up and descending into name calling and arguments every few months?

You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Boston · 11-12-2007 12:33am

Spetzcong wrote: »

So we do allow it, and then have threads about starting SS teams popping up and descending into name calling and arguments every few months?

In fairness thats what we have moderators for. To keep that stuff to a minimum. I can see why a site would ban such teams, as to allow them would be, in most circumstances, seen as an endorsement. However a discussion is far difference since both negative and positive aspects may be put forward.I just don't feel that turning issues like this into a taboo is good for anyone.

iceage · 11-12-2007 12:40am

Guys..guys.. with all the discussion that is going on about this subject, be it right or wrong..which ever side you place yourself on it still does not get away from the fact that the word Nazi, SS, etc is in the same sentence and discussion as Airsoft!! On this one guys, you have to agree, if you want this sport to get on, I would recommend you drop it, like a hot stone!!

Airsoft as a sport in its infancy in this country cannot hope to deal with the flak that will arise from an "association" with anything to do with that subject.

As I said earlier, a smart lookin uniform..you cant help but find it appealing for its cut! The germans have impeccable taste!! but it ain't gonna help us get this thing rolling if some media people(tame version) get a hold of it...is it?

Drop it...noff said...

0ubliette · 11-12-2007 12:42am

discussion of WW2 weapons = fine.
Discussion of the ethics of certain frontline SS groups = take it to the history forum.
Dressing up in full ww2 regalia = join a recretionists society. Theres on in ireland called battle group south. look them up.

But seriously, who would think that dressing up in an SS uniform WOULDNT offend people? Id gladly dress up as a wehrmacht soldier if i could get my hands on an STG44, but for gods sake, the SS? That uniform is and always will be associated with the holocaust and the very wort of the ww2 atrocities.

IRISH RAIL · 11-12-2007 12:47am

Spetzcong wrote: »

So we do allow it, and then have threads about starting SS teams popping up and descending into name calling and arguments every few months?

You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

If I wear a long leather jacket will that pass as the gestapo ??
because theres always someone who will think that
spetzcong is right youre dammed either way

Boston · 11-12-2007 12:50am

The please think of the image argument is really getting old. Bottom line is this, if some guy goes out and buys an airsoft gun, registers www.ssnaziswithairsoftguns.com and prances around a field, I would like to be able to say "hey, that guy is a pratt" on this forum rather then hoping that all those bright sparks out there will realise, upon themselves, that we're not all like that. However boards, being boards is not about one sided discussion.

iceage · 11-12-2007 12:56am

GUYS, i was at a re-inactment the other week in Carrick On Suir at the Castle.

Great show..german infantry/british infantry(ww1) loved it!and the crowds loved it too! but it was a SHOW for the public..nothing to do with Airsoft as a sport, and thats the way it HAS remain untill we become established,

Poll concerning SS/WW2 related threads

Should discussion of SS/WW2 era German military be allowed? (Forming teams etc) 50 votes

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