Fireplace

MichaelR · 23-12-2007 1:49am #1

In the house I currently rent, the fireplace is apparently ineffective. Also its damper is far from the chimney, so the only way to prevent air (and heat) escaping through the chimney is to jam the fireplace - making it useless.

I would like to propose to the landlord that we fix this and share the cost, but first I'd like to know what the fixing options are.

Ideally I would want to install, in the existing place, some stove/insert/whatever it be called. It should burn any hard fuel (coal is OK, as is wood), heat the room around it, and when not in use, allow me to block the chimney. It should also be as cheap as possible - would not want to pay 100% more for 10% more efficiently.

What kind of solutons exist, and what kind of money do they cost?

Thanks!

webels · 23-12-2007 6:22pm

Stove all the way, just put one into an existing fireplace, easy job to do yourself but stove will cost you anything from 400 to 1200 for a small one, but heat output is great and I'm certain it will save me on Gas. It doesn't have a backboiler but leaving the door of the living room open allows heat all round the house. Gas boiler has come on only a few times today. Mine is a Tripp TRV5, but you have a lot of choices. Don't be afraid of calling a few suppliers as mine was 150 cheaper from a supplier in Monaghan vs a Kildare one.

I cant see how you would block the chimney with it or why as door of the stove will seal it when the fire is out anyway.

Reyman · 24-12-2007 3:15pm

Just reading your post Webels! And a quick question - did you use the existing chimney? and if so, did you not have to line it and seal the boiler outlet to the chimney input?

I'm looking at putting one in but that kind of thing if it's needed doesn't sound like DIY to me ?

webels · 24-12-2007 5:14pm

Hi Reyman
No boiler on the stove, used a reducer from the chimney pot to meet a 5" angle to the back of the stove sealed with fire rope and fire cement, no smoke leaking so far..

Oh yeah I did use the existing chimney. Placed the stove in front of the existing fireplace..

The difficulty I had was many of the people selling stoves said they did not install them directly themselves. I said I would try it myself. So this may not be a DIY job as you said however that is up to yourself.

Reyman · 24-12-2007 7:23pm

Fine thanks! I have the same problem - the people who sell the stoves know nothing about installation and charge €100 for a 'survey'. I thought the chimney might need to be lined for a stove but maybe I'm wrong.

One more question - how do you get the chimney cleaned? Do you take out the stove?

webels · 24-12-2007 8:39pm

I used to light fires in the existing fireplace with no issues, I also felt the draft was quite good. So I guessed that the fireplace was a fairly good one to start with. I broke out the fireback and ultimately some Cast iron at the back also, so once that was done there was no going back. So now I had the existing fire surround intact. I then installed the stove as described in the posts above.

You are right about cleaning the chimney, the stove will need to be pulled out, but it is fairly small and easy to maneuver. I dont plan to burn much coal which would certainly mean regular chimney cleaning. I picked up a Bord Na Mona Fuels leaflet stating the types of fuels to burn in a stove (very useful), some fuels get too hot and will break the stove grate etc so be careful with your fuel choice.

Stove retailers are not really interested in stove installations (I wish they were I would have like it to be done for me) but one place I got some great info was from the people at Fenton Fires in Greystones, they know what they are talking about and will arrange installation if you purchase the stove there (although I didn't)

Good look if you decide to go ahead with it.

MichaelR · 25-12-2007 7:27pm

Question: would a stove be dangerous for a kid?

I mean, if it has a large ht metal surface and a kid is around, he/she might hurt him/herself?

webels · 25-12-2007 8:42pm

Yes, but a good child fireguard for the whole fireplace should solve that. However if you have any concerns maybe it isn't for you as children can get past many obstacles.

Reyman · 26-12-2007 11:48am

MichaelR wrote: »

Question: would a stove be dangerous for a kid?

I mean, if it has a large ht metal surface and a kid is around, he/she might hurt him/herself?

One of my friend's kids ot a bad burn off one last week so as Webels said you need to screen it off carefully!

Vmaxer · 04-01-2008 10:57pm

webels wrote: »

Hi Reyman
No boiler on the stove, used a reducer from the chimney pot to meet a 5" angle to the back of the stove sealed with fire rope and fire cement, no smoke leaking so far..

Oh yeah I did use the existing chimney. Placed the stove in front of the existing fireplace..

The difficulty I had was many of the people selling stoves said they did not install them directly themselves. I said I would try it myself. So this may not be a DIY job as you said however that is up to yourself.

What You have done here Webels is what I'm trying to do at the moment, A couple of questions for You..

Did You have to extend the Hearth or does the floor in front of the stove remain cool?

I am trying to figure out how to attach the flue from the stove to the Chimney adaptor when the stove is pushed back in place? and when done do You have to seal it with cement from inside the stove.

From what I can picture is the diameter of the flue from the stove is narrower
than the chimney flew, so to clean the chimney I assume You will have to do so from the roof down to the stove and clean the soot inside the stove, then use a smaller diameter brush for the short length of flue going from the stove?

Ideally I feel I may have to remove the fireplace and start fresh but I don't want to do this because it was hardly ever used and it was expensive when I bought the House 8 Years ago, It would be a shame to pull it out.. A stove in front could look well if I find the right one. I would like to see a picture of this done if anyone could post one :rolleyes:

webels · 05-01-2008 12:59am

Dubsmax wrote: »

What You have done here Webels is what I'm trying to do at the moment, A couple of questions for You..

Did You have to extend the Hearth or does the floor in front of the stove remain cool?

I am trying to figure out how to attach the flue from the stove to the Chimney adaptor when the stove is pushed back in place? and when done do You have to seal it with cement from inside the stove.

From what I can picture is the diameter of the flue from the stove is narrower
than the chimney flew, so to clean the chimney I assume You will have to do so from the roof down to the stove and clean the soot inside the stove, then use a smaller diameter brush for the short length of flue going from the stove?

Ideally I feel I may have to remove the fireplace and start fresh but I don't want to do this because it was hardly ever used and it was expensive when I bought the House 8 Years ago, It would be a shame to pull it out.. A stove in front could look well if I find the right one. I would like to see a picture of this done if anyone could post one :rolleyes:

Hi Dubsmax
Ok, scrap what I described above, it was a rather cheap option costing around €100 but does not work well :mad: as I found out the last few days. I was burning wood and briquettes, even though the wood was fairly dry, creosote came back down the chimney around the outside of the reducer thru the firecement and the seal was broken (smoke leak) and creating a danger in the long run of a chimney fire (I believe creosote is flammable). From what I read this is what happened - gases from the stove left the stove up the flue and cooled too quickly before being exhausted to the atmosphere leading to liquid creosote formation thru condensation. The gases need to be kept warm all the way up the chimney to avoid this.

Solution double walled insulated flexiflue lining the chimney from top to bottom (as mentioned above), not a huge job but as I do not have the equipment or head for those heights not for me. I had a guy in to look at the job and he will give me a price next week. Apparently it involves feeding the 5" flexiflue from the top of the chimney stack into the fireplace below and connecting to the back of the stove with an elbow joint.

In this situation very little chances of a leak (less joints) and the gases are kept warm until exhaust. Cleaning will be easier but should still involve stove removal (you will be cleaning the flexiflue).

As for removal of the fireplace, you should not have to remove the surround but will have to take out the fireback (i guess as the flexiflue will have to get past the gap at the top of the fireback somehow).

From my experience (hard learned) as mentioned above unless you have head for heights and long ladders to get to the chimney stack you may need someone to look at your setup (possible not having to do any damage to your exixting fireplace). I can PM you the guys name to look at my Chimney - cant vouch for him though as no job done yet so if you can wait until the job is done i can post some pics as you suggested and let you know my thoughts.

As for the fire hearth, the legs of my stove stay very cool but it sits on a fake granite slab, It is recommended you sit a stove on fire resistant material, i have even seen them sit on fire resistant glass that looks very good but is quite expensive.

Vmaxer · 05-01-2008 1:40am

Thanks for the reply Webels, I will be very interested to see how You get on with the fitter. The flexitube sound like a proper job and makes sense having it installed. If You could PM Me the Guys number assuming He is in Dublin I'd appreciate it..

I will keep an eye on this thread and look forward to your thoughts on the job,
In the meantime I'm going to look at what stoves are available.

If You get a chance post up a Picture of Your set up..

Thanks for the Info..

Reyman · 05-01-2008 7:09pm

Hi Dubs,

The regulations say you need 18" clearance of non inflammable material in front of the stove. So presumably you may need to lay a slab to meet this!

Avns1s · 05-01-2008 7:31pm

I have installed a Stanley Tara (non Boiler) stove recently. I chose it as it fitted into the fireplace and stood on the hearth without (well hardly) any modifications meaning I can go back to the open fire if necessary.

It's fitted using the adaptor mentioned by another poster to link the 6" flue from the stove into the 8" flue of the chimney. It's sealed with the asbestos rope and fire cement. It uses the adaptor, 1 x straight piece and 2 x 45 degree bends to make up the space and the goemetry between the stove and the chimney flue.

It has been working perfectly, no leaks and no creosote. I burn mainly turf but also some timber but it is dry. I don't think you should burn wet fuels regardless of the type of flue set up you have.

Whole job cost less than a grand and is IMHO a DIY job for the reasonably capable DIY person. You will need 2 people though as the stoves are rather heavy and getting the flue correct involves a bit of trial and error, in other words a lot if putting in and taking out.

I had the same problem as the OP, too much air going up the chimneyand no way to reduce it. The stove is absolutely the answer IMO. Is substantially cutting down our oil bills in the living area of the house too.

Hope this info is of some help.

Vmaxer · 09-01-2008 11:46pm

webels wrote: »

Hi Dubsmax
Ok, scrap what I described above, it was a rather cheap option costing around €100 but does not work well :mad: as I found out the last few days. I was burning wood and briquettes, even though the wood was fairly dry, creosote came back down the chimney around the outside of the reducer thru the firecement and the seal was broken (smoke leak) and creating a danger in the long run of a chimney fire (I believe creosote is flammable). From what I read this is what happened - gases from the stove left the stove up the flue and cooled too quickly before being exhausted to the atmosphere leading to liquid creosote formation thru condensation. The gases need to be kept warm all the way up the chimney to avoid this.

Solution double walled insulated flexiflue lining the chimney from top to bottom (as mentioned above), not a huge job but as I do not have the equipment or head for those heights not for me. I had a guy in to look at the job and he will give me a price next week. Apparently it involves feeding the 5" flexiflue from the top of the chimney stack into the fireplace below and connecting to the back of the stove with an elbow joint.

In this situation very little chances of a leak (less joints) and the gases are kept warm until exhaust. Cleaning will be easier but should still involve stove removal (you will be cleaning the flexiflue).

As for removal of the fireplace, you should not have to remove the surround but will have to take out the fireback (i guess as the flexiflue will have to get past the gap at the top of the fireback somehow).

From my experience (hard learned) as mentioned above unless you have head for heights and long ladders to get to the chimney stack you may need someone to look at your setup (possible not having to do any damage to your exixting fireplace). I can PM you the guys name to look at my Chimney - cant vouch for him though as no job done yet so if you can wait until the job is done i can post some pics as you suggested and let you know my thoughts.

As for the fire hearth, the legs of my stove stay very cool but it sits on a fake granite slab, It is recommended you sit a stove on fire resistant material, i have even seen them sit on fire resistant glass that looks very good but is quite expensive.

I took Your advise Webels and went Up to Tyrone Today and bought a Stove + Liner and all attachments needed, they made up the Double walled Stainless
Steel liner while I waited and managed to fit the stove and 9 Metre's of 6" Liner into My saloon Car. I think there liner Kit worked out at £379 Inc Vat with all accessories inluded to finish the job..

So as soon as the Weather Calms down a bit I'm lookin forward to getting up on the roof and putting the Stove in..

I went for The Little Thurlow stove 20.5" High just perfect for My Fireplace..

http://www.country-stoves.co.uk/index.asp

Is where I got all the bits needed and the Guy called Gerard was very helpful, worth the trip and also gave Me a nice discount

webels · 10-01-2008 12:38am

Good one Dubsmax, - good price on the Double wall. Post a pic when all is done as will I.

webels · 31-01-2008 10:59am

Well as promised here are some photos of the attached stove, they are pretty self explanatory. All is fine now with the new flexiflue (expensive but IMO worth it).

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh147/webels/DSCF1307.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh147/webels/DSCF1303.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh147/webels/DSCF1306.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh147/webels/DSCF1305.jpg

Reyman · 31-01-2008 3:37pm

webels wrote: »

Well as promised here are some photos of the attached stove, they are pretty self explanatory. All is fine now with the new flexiflue (expensive but IMO worth it).

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh147/webels/DSCF1307.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh147/webels/DSCF1303.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh147/webels/DSCF1306.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh147/webels/DSCF1305.jpg

Hi Webels: It looks very good - two questions:
1. What's the stuff you're using at the joint between the flexiliner and the stove outlet (it looks like fibreglass)?
2. Do you have to disassemble the joint to clean the chimney?

webels · 31-01-2008 4:52pm

Hi Reyman,
Didn't do the job myself but yes it is some sort of fiberglass.
To clean it possibly does mean pulling the stove out breaking a firecement seal between an elbow joint and the back of the stove. You can see this joint on the bottom left of 1306.jpg. Stove is heavy but not too bad to lift out.

However there is an air Baffle on the rear wall of the stove that once removed gives access to the flue from there and this would be worth trying before pulling the stove out (Had to remove the baffle already to fit the flue collar and its easy to do). So cleaning from the top down while cleaning below may be an option.

Great heat from the stove particularly on a day like today.

Vmaxer · 04-02-2008 12:58pm

Hi Webel's, I just had a look at the Pics You posted of Your stove setup, it fits the fireplace very well.

The way the installer has the Enamel stove pipe attached to the liner does't look right though and looks like it could get dislodged and be a fire hazard.
There is an adaptor available that will make a safer joint, I picked one up in MI Flues in summerhill Co Meath. The only other thing I would be a bit concerned about is the Chimney cowl looks like it will allow rain to run down the outside of the liner and might be a problem with corrosion in the longterm.

Here's a link to the Adaptor

http://server.iad.liveperson.net/hc/s-4653057/cmd/kbresource/kb-8959073344421400076/view_question!PAGETYPE?sq=adaptor&sf=101113&sg=0&st=846929&documentid=148314&action=view

Vmaxer · 07-02-2008 2:23am

I installed My Stove Today with Flexible liner, I didn't want to do it Myself but with Quotes of €400+ for a couple of hours work I had no option but to get up on the Roof.. Just going through the smokey paint curing process at the moment
When I get a chance I'll post up some Pic's of the finished product..

A half bucket of coal went a long way tonight so I'm feeling its worth the effort already, loads of heat little fuel good for the enviroment

Vmaxer · 08-02-2008 2:01am

Just in case anybody else is interested in modifying there existing fireplace and fitting an efficient solid fuel stove I'm posting some Pic's of My installation completely DIY and not difficult if You are not afraid of heights.

The Stove was attached to the Flexable Liner with a 90 Degree Enameled stove pipe and 6" to 6" stove pipe to flexi liner adapter which self taps the liner in 3 places and which I also sealed with cement. I also cut a 9" concrete block to size and sat it under the the stove pipe to give it some support when
cleaning the liner from above and should reduce any movement on the joints.
On the top of the liner at the chimney pot I also used an adaptor similar to the one below to secure the Cowl and for good measure and assurance that the weather will never blow it down on the Neighbours car I bolted it to the Liner adaptor and chained it to the chimney pot with chain and heavy duty cable ties and also sealed around the top of the Pot with high tempreture silicone to eliminate draughts.. The cowl is easily removable for cleaning the liner which I will do twice a Year and hover out the soot with a hover attachment that I got in woodies earlier this Year.
All in all I happy with My installation and have no leaks and good draught..

webels · 08-02-2008 10:56am

Sound great Dubsmax, I did notice that the cowl was a bit small so am gonna do something about that on my chimney. Your self tapping fixing for the back of the stove also looks very secure and would be worth investing in.
When you are removing the soot after cleaning where will you be hoovering it from?
You really have gone belt and braces on the fixture and sounds very good indeed.

Vmaxer · 08-02-2008 2:25pm

webels wrote: »

Sound great Dubsmax, I did notice that the cowl was a bit small so am gonna do something about that on my chimney. Your self tapping fixing for the back of the stove also looks very secure and would be worth investing in.
When you are removing the soot after cleaning where will you be hoovering it from?
You really have gone belt and braces on the fixture and sounds very good indeed.

I will clean the soot by removing the baffle plate and then I have access to the inside of the elbow joint, this is as far as the flue brush will go from the top down an is where the soot will lie. So I will just hoover the soot out then brush the short length of flue from the inside of the stove and reassemble.

webels · 08-02-2008 2:48pm

That sounds the way to go all right

Fireplace

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