Fears legal guns ending up in hands of criminals

The pistols, SMGs, assault rifles and whatever else is being found in the hands of the criminals are not coming from licence holders. This is a very cynical effort in my opinion, as the Gardai are very well aware of the extremly low level of thefts of licenced handguns in particular.

This seems to be a ploy to dstract from the fact that the criminals seem to be able to obtain and use their illegal firearms with virtual impunity.

Chris Rock has a good solution for gun control:

Gun control? We need bullet control! I think every bullet should cost $5,000. Because if a bullet cost $5,000, we wouldn't have any innocent bystanders. That'd be it. Every time someone gets shot, people will be like, ''Damn, he must have did something. S**t, they put $20,000 worth of bullets in his ass.'' People would think before they killed somebody, if a bullet cost $5,000. ''Man, l would blow your f**king head off, if l could afford it. l'm gonna get me another job, l'm gonna start saving some money, and you're a dead man! You better hope l can't get no bullets on layaway.'' So even if you get shot by a stray bullet, you won't have to go to no doctor
to get it taken out. Whoever shot you would take their bullet back. ''l believe you got my property.''

eroo wrote: »

I do not have statistics to back it up, but it is well established that a lot of blaggers used stolen firearms for armed robberies.

The gardai have been asked to produce those statistics though dail questions to the minister for justice twice in the last two years by the shooting associations. They don't have them and can't generate them "without disproportionate effort".
If the gardai, of all people, have no evidence, how can anyone say it's well established fact?

Is it fair to say that we have the toughest laws aroubd legal firearms in say Europe? Even taking handguns out of the picture we need a license for an air-rifle here whereas in most counties I'm aware of these things are just brough over the counter. I have often hear people speak of a firearms officer who deals with license requests, out of interest is there one in each station?

ForegoneReality wrote: »

It's like the whole story of there being so many thousand baseball bats sold in Ireland each year yet there is only a handful of baseball clubs/societies in the country.

A bit like hurley bats being sold in Leitrim.

It's from a letter someone wrote to a paper quoting the Minister's reply to a Dail question.
And in this country it's one firearms certificate per firearm, not per person. The best guess is that 200,000 is a good estimate of the number of people with licenced firearms.
As to why, reasons range from sport through hunting and vermin control, to humane dispatch (for vets and the DSPCA) and starting races (starting pistols are firearms in Ireland).

Thats from a letter someone wrote to a paper. Not hard evidence now, also it states how many firearm certificates are issued not how many actual firearms are legally held. You do realise people can and do have more than 1 firearm using a single license arent you?

One firearm per firearm certificate is the rule. Most shooters would love to see this changed as it's a very inefficient way of doing things, but that's the law here at present (& has been since 1925).

The 200 & something thousand figure for licenced firearms in the whole country has been confirmed in the Dail on numerous occasions.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the number of shotguns held equals the number of sporting shooters?

The number of shotguns held is around 180,000 (the remainder of the 230,000 is split between 1800 or so pistols and the rest rifles).
Of that 180,000, the bulk are owned by farmers. Sports shooters and hunters own the rest.

I was born in Dublin, raised in Dublin, live in Dublin and work in Dublin. Now, besides your silly statement, please explain why a Dub living in an apartment genuinely needs a shotgun for vermin control?

He wouldn't. But he would own one for clay pigeon shooting. The people that own them for vermin control are farmers outside dublin (the 180,000 are the total number of shotguns licenced nationwide)

Onwards, butchers and vets are entitled to have a firearm without a license

They might be allowed to do so, but it's not normal practise from what I can see. The DSPCA lads own their own rifles (for cases where they can't get to the animal, such as feral goats stuck on cliffs, which was the example one gave me). As to vets, I know that in the foot and mouth scare they were issued with firearms by the Gardai who took them back afterwards. If they want to keep one for ongoing use, they'd get it licenced.

The whole country seems more plausable but my point still stands.

I'm afraid it doesn't.

"over the past five years, 595 firearms of all types have fallen into criminal hands in thefts on private homes and gun dealerships. Of these, the vast majority of thefts were shotguns and rifles, with 11 handguns stolen over the period"
(http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=IRELAND-qqqm=nav-qqqid=36302-qqqx=1.asp)

That article was flat-out wrong from start to finish, and I don't know why they printed it when they were told it was wrong last tuesday.

So it would appear that a good amount of guns in criminals hands are indeed stolen.

No, it wouldn't. Look into the seizure figures for firearms from criminals issued by the gardai last year and you find things like machine guns and CS spray, which are not legal to licence anywhere in the EU except to the police and military. So unless they were stolen from the Army or the Gardai, they weren't stolen (at least not in this country). Also, the fact that Gardai have intercepted firearms being shipped into the country from the continent by these savages indicates precisely where their guns are coming from. And by the way, just one of those intercepted smuggled shipments last year contained more pistols than were licenced in the entire country at the time. Steal from us? Why the feck would they? They can get them far more easily without having to break into a house (bypassing the house alarm) and the two safes te component parts and ammo are in (or the three safes, depending on the setup, oh, and don't forget that the safes are alarmed as well, with eircom phonewatch or a similar company) and making their escape.
They just get one off one of the other savages down the pub.

And by the way, when you ask in the Dail, as we have done twice now, how many firearms used in crime were stolen from licenced owners, the response is that the Gardai don't have that information and couldn't find out without an excessive amount of time. Which means anyone saying that stolen firearms are a problem in crime is talking through their hat without proof, and I do include the Gardai and the Minister in that.

I understand your point concerning who is running around shooting people but the simple reality is guns are dangerous items

And noone disagrees with that. We just would like folks to understand that while firearms are dangerous, cars are more dangerous, as are power tools, kitchen knives and electrical outlets, because more people are harmed every year with any of those things than have been harmed in the history of target shooting (which has had no accidents or injuries since the earliest record we can find of a match, which was in 1844).
We'd also like folks to understand that these are not handed out willy-nilly to anyone that wants one. There are exceptionally strict controls on their licencing in place, noone gets one who isn't personally vouched for by a Garda Superintendent as being safe to own and use one, and as to what Deasy and Mitchell were saying, well, Fine Gael is meeting with the shooting bodies next week about this and Kenny has already directed Deasy and Mitchell to attend a pistol target shooting range to actually see for themselves how regulated it is.
I think that kinda spells it out, really.

and I find it incredible that we have more and better armed civilians than police!

So do I. As in, I find it not credible. Because we don't have "armed civilians", we have people who have sports equipment, farm equipment, veterinarian equipment, or firearms for hunting. By "armed civilians", you're implying the existance of an armed paramilitary force, and frankly, that's rather offensive given the enormous amount we go through obtaining our licences (background checks, house inspections by the CPO, installing security measures, granting access to our medical records, membership of an authorised range and whatever else the Superintendent asks for) in order to reassure the other members of the public that there isn't a safety risk involved.

And frankly, the Gardai don't have any right to state, imply or suggest we're a safety risk. Under the firearms acts, if the Superintendent feels an applicant cannot own or use a firearm without being a threat to public safety or the peace, he cannot legally issue a licence for one. The courts cannot overrule him, neither can the Commissioner, the Minister, the Taoiseach, the President, the Seanad or the Dail. He's the persona designata, his right to be the sole person making the decision protected by a 2002 decision of the Supreme Court.

So by saying we're a risk, you're accusing Garda Superintendents of breaking the law.

Hey folks,

Just want to chime in and give my 2 cents.

Anyone else think the Commissioner is being a bit silly.

"I'm worried about hand guns, so criminals if you are listening, there are approx 2000 in the country and here's the breakdown by Garda district"

In the last week I have seen the exact number licensed in every district. So if he's worried about theft why the hell is someone publishing their locations to the public