Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

Trojan911 · 18-11-2008 10:16pm #1

Just heard on the local radio (Corks 96FM) news at 10 this evening that the Government has indicated a blanket ban on the issue of all legally held handguns, which could be imminent.

No link as yet but I have just spoken to the newsdesk to confirm I was hearing right.

Is this the beginning of the end?

Traumadoc · 18-11-2008 10:43pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1118/breaking63.htm

The Minister also told the Dáil tonight that he plans a major clampdown on the number of handguns licensed within the State.

“That situation is clearly unsatisfactory and I will be bringing forward effective proposals to deal comprehensively with it,”

Rovi · 18-11-2008 11:51pm

Also on the RTE News page-
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1118/surveillance.html

Handgun crack down
In the Dáil this evening Dermot Ahern signalled a crack down on licensed handguns.
Mr Ahern was responding to Opposition criticism of the Government's tackling of organised crime.

Mr Ahern said there had been no legally held hand-guns until a number of judicial decisions in 2004, and that he would not tolerate a proliferation of such weapons

Must be seen to be 'doing something', I suppose. :mad:

Rovi · 19-11-2008 12:03am

Just on midnight news on Newstalk:
"Over 1700 Glock pistols have been licenced in the last year."

It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so serious. :mad:

civdef · 19-11-2008 12:08am

I'm actually surprised it took so long for this craic to start. Anyway, now we get to see if Irish shooters can be arsed to engage in meaningful lobbying to save their sport.

fish slapped · 19-11-2008 12:23am

DONG, DONG, DONG...
Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for THEE!

Handgun crack down
In the Dáil this evening Dermot Ahern signalled a crack down on licensed handguns.
Mr Ahern was responding to Opposition criticism of the Government's tackling of organised crime.

Mr Ahern said there had been no legally held hand-guns until a number of judicial decisions in 2004, and that he would not tolerate a proliferation of such weapons.
The murder of Shane Geoghegan in Limerick prompted this evening's private members debate, with Fine Gael calling for new measures to crack down on crime gangs.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1118/surveillance.html

Just f*kcing sick of it!!!

.270 remington · 19-11-2008 12:26am

the minister will probably pull the same stunt as they did back in 1972 it is as legal now as it was back then.
i wonder will we get any compensation for our guns/equipment

Sparks · 19-11-2008 12:31am

From the Irish Times:

Minister plans to bring in handgun ban
MICHAEL O'REGAN

A BAN on handguns was signalled by Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern .

He said that the increasing prevalence of handguns had not come about as a result of any deliberate policy decision by the Government or the House.

"That situation is clearly unsatisfactory and I will be bringing forward effective proposals to deal comprehensively with it," he added.

"There is simply no excuse for the type of gangland activities which we have witnessed. Members of gangs bear complete responsibility for their deeds."

He said he had previously made clear his concern at the number and type of handguns being licensed and a review of the firearms laws was at its final stages.

"My bottom line is this: while I recognise that the vast majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun crime," said Mr Ahern.

"I will make a detailed statement in the near future on this matter." He asked if they wanted "as a country to go down the road of America, Finland and others, where there is a proliferation of handguns".

The Minister was speaking during a debate on a Fine Gael Private Members' motion calling for action on crime, following the recent murder of Shane Geoghegan in Limerick.

Mr Ahern said that from the early 1970s, in the light of the Northern troubles, all handguns were banned in the Republic until a few years ago.

Following a series of judicial decisions, that was no longer the case, although there was no public policy decision to lift the ban, he added.

Mr Ahern said that in the longer term, they risked condemning future generations if they did not face up to the deep-seated social problems which had beset parts of Limerick.

He said that work was ongoing on the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence and Sampling) Bill providing for the establishment of a DNA database for criminal investigation purposes. He expected to be able to publish the Bill in the new year.

Proposals for a covert surveillance Bill had been approved by the Government earlier in the day, he added.

Fine Gael justice spokesman Charlie Flanagan said that criminal gangs would not prosper in the State if they did not have easy access to drugs.

"The Government likes to point the finger at Foxrock and abdicate its own responsibility in this regard," he added.

"However, the bottom line is Ireland is internally seen as a soft touch when it comes to the importation of drugs. With one Customs boat, one mobile X-ray scanner and a handful of sniffer dogs, this is no surprise."

Mr Flanagan said that while that gross oversight remained, criminal gangs would prosper, innocent victims would be murdered and the Government would have failed the Irish people.

Labour spokesman Pat Rabbitte said that senior Garda appointments should be taken out of the domain of party politics.

"This single decision would give more impetus to the dynamic for genuine change than any of the reforms to date which have met with such mixed success," he added.

© 2008 The Irish Times

Bananaman · 19-11-2008 12:32am

I just watched Oireachtas Report

Wheras Mr. Ahern did say that the proliferation of hanguns was not to be tolerated - in context he was talking about illegally held handguns - at no time did he mention legally held handguns.

He spoke about bringing in legislation as highlighted by 'Justice Such and Such' lately - I assume - the criminal justice bill.

I think the papers are just stirring a storm in teacup again.

B'Man

IRLConor · 19-11-2008 12:37am

.270 remington wrote: »

the minister will probably pull the same stunt as they did back in 1972 it is as legal now as it was back then.

I doubt they'll do that. A TCO can only be valid for a month. They are unlikely to make that mistake twice. A ban would probably take the form of an amendment to the Firearms Acts to explicitly allow for it.

.270 remington wrote: »

i wonder will we get any compensation for our guns/equipment

Unlikely. The coffers are empty. I imagine they'd simply revoke the licenses on whatever they banned and then your options would be to either turn it into the Gardai or give it to a firearms dealer to be sold on your behalf.

Sparks · 19-11-2008 12:41am

civdef wrote: »

I'm actually surprised it took so long for this craic to start. Anyway, now we get to see if Irish shooters can be arsed to engage in meaningful lobbying to save their sport.

Now is about four years too fecking late, and we were saying so here in '04 when the CJB first came to light.

Happily, B'man's comment indicates that this is the press being the press. On top of which, the restricted list being commenced would easily fulfill what the Minister was quoted by the press as promising anyway.

I wouldn't say pistols were safe - but they're not dead yet. However, if there was ever a time to bite down on idealism and be as pragmatic as possible, this is it. One idiot running around saying they have right to walk down grafton street with a .45 strapped to their thigh in tactical holster (with matching tactical underpants), or going in to find a table to pound away on in the DoJ while asking if the Minister or Commissioner have "lost it"; and even I'll be giving my little self-disassembling air pistol back to the local Super. And if that happens, I'll be looking to have a few choice words with the chap who decided he'd screw over the rest of us like that.

Grizzly 45 · 19-11-2008 1:34am

Looks like this is the upgraded article.And it dont smell good!:mad::mad::mad:

wwww.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1227026417220.html

Why did I feel this was coming since that Judge Charlton statement in July???:rolleyes: After reading that I think we are codding ourselves to think the minister is talking "out of context".Unless we stand up and fight NOW,we can definately see pistol shooting go silently into the dark night here in Ireland.
So methinks folks anyone who wants to keep pistol shooting for Ireland[although why you would want to repersent a country that treats it's lawabiding citizens so shoddily,beats me] had better think about moving their stuff to friendlier climes in the EU or US.

Actually I am ASHAMED to be Irish today and ASHAMED that Irish gunowners didnt take a more proactive role in defending a section of their sport that was making great progress after a 32 year sleep.
I am ASHAMED that we have such an incompetant Govt and police force that took the soft option in "crime fighting" and jumped on the law abiding Irish shooter as a boogeyman and scapegoat for their mishandling of a crime problem that now WILL get worse and more viscious.
And I am ASHAMED that there are such animals running loose on our streets,equipped with the most state of the art firearms,without a fear of man ,law or God and we are lumped in with them.
Rant over .I'm going to bed
In disgust.
Grizzly

Sparks · 19-11-2008 1:51am

That link doesn't work Grizzly, I think you meant this story:

Cabinet agrees to blanket ban on licensing of handguns
CONOR LALLY MICHAEL O'REGAN and

THE CABINET has agreed to a blanket ban on the licensing of handguns. Criminal justice legislation already being drafted will be amended to include provisions that will ban the granting of handgun licences under any circumstances.

Gun owners who already have weapons will not have their licences renewed, forcing them to sell their guns or face criminal prosecution.

The Government's decision to ban the weapons comes after a period in which their use has grown exponentially in the Republic, reaching 1,900 licences at present. In 2004, the High Court overturned a 30-year-old "temporary custody order" banning the licences.

Figures obtained two weeks ago by John Deasy TD (FG) revealed major inconsistencies in the way gardaí across the State were interpreting laws around the granting of handgun licences.

Some Garda districts have granted no licences for handguns while others in more sparsely populated areas have been much more liberal, issuing between 50 and 100 licences a year.

Speaking last night during a Dáil debate on a Fine Gael private members' motion calling for action on crime, Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern said he would bring forward legislation to deal with the handguns issue.

Informed sources said the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill would be amended to ban the guns.

The matter was discussed at Cabinet yesterday where Mr Ahern secured agreement for a ban.

In July, Mr Justice Peter Charleton said there was "a pressing need" for drawing together into a clear law the multiple "piecemeal" rules on the control of handguns here.

He said reasonable people were "entitled to feel alarmed" about a recent large increase in the number of pistols licensed for private use. He made his comments during a High Court case in which a man challenged the Garda's refusal to grant him a gun licence.

Mr Ahern said the increasing prevalence of handguns had not come about as a result of any deliberate policy decision by the Government.

He had previously made clear his concern at the number and type of handguns being licensed.

"My bottom line is this," Mr Ahern continued, "while I recognise that the vast majority of handgun owners are responsible people, as Minister my concern is the safety of the public, particularly at a time of concern about gun crime."

Last night's debate followed the murder last Sunday week of Shane Geoghegan in Limerick. He was killed when members of a gang in the city shot him close to his home in Dooradoyle after mistaking him for a rival criminal.

© 2008 The Irish Times

Nodin · 19-11-2008 8:25am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Looks like this is the upgraded article.And it dont smell good!:mad::mad::mad:

wwww.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1227026417220.html

Why did I feel this was coming since that Judge Charlton statement in July???:rolleyes: After reading that I think we are codding ourselves to think the minister is talking "out of context".Unless we stand up and fight NOW,we can definately see pistol shooting go silently into the dark night here in Ireland.
So methinks folks anyone who wants to keep pistol shooting for Ireland[although why you would want to repersent a country that treats it's lawabiding citizens so shoddily,beats me] had better think about moving their stuff to friendlier climes in the EU or US.

Actually I am ASHAMED to be Irish today and ASHAMED that Irish gunowners didnt take a more proactive role in defending a section of their sport that was making great progress after a 32 year sleep.

To be honest, theres only so much that can be done in the face of kneejerk stupidity and scape-goating. Theres just insuffecient numbers to create a large lobbying bloc to protect against this sort of thing and even then, theres no guarantee that the need for a sacrificial victim wouldn't outweigh commonsense.

Mind you, its cold consolation to be depressed as oppossed to ashamed.....

bigred · 19-11-2008 8:33am

In fairness to the minister, 'serious curtailment' and 'total ban' are two different beasts altogether. If he was going to ban everything, wouldn't he have just said it outright last night?
This doesn't mean I'm not concerned about the nearly 3 grand of pre-recession money and a year's training I've invested in my sport :eek::eek:

I'm doing up my mail to him at the moment

kerryman12 · 19-11-2008 8:49am

Depressing news for sure. But to be honest not surprising anymore.

marlin vs · 19-11-2008 9:02am

Typical of our government, pick on the law abider again, and he know's it wont help the bad situation that's out there, he's only pulling the wool over the eye's of the gullible.

G17 · 19-11-2008 9:04am

bigred wrote: »

I'm doing up my mail to him at the moment

I sent one to him last night begging him to spare the sports shooters, i.e. the ones who train and compete.

I've been on the phone since early morning with club members who are beside themselves with worry.

We've invested so much time and money and heart into our clubhouse and range that the prospect of being told we can't shoot anymore is like hearing a relative has a serious illness.

All because of criminal activity in Limerick being the darling of the press this month. To law abiding sports shooters the situation is so frustratiing it's almost unbearable, the complete and total injustice of it all.

If there is a total ban it will be very unfair and surely fairness is at the heart of civilisation. The minister hasn't banned anything yet.

Clash · 19-11-2008 9:19am

tbh, it's a bit like the insurance industry where it swung from insuring young drivers to not insuring them and back again.

We've had no pistols for years, then we've had anything goes and now it apears to be swinging back towards none again.

Halting the swing is going to be extremely difficult and at this stage if anything can be salvaged it'll be a result.

sharps · 19-11-2008 9:29am

Just heard on the radio news at 9;00 that all hand guns are now banned for everyone due to the rise of pistol use in crime. No licences will be renewed in july, an outright blanket ban for All pistols.

tba · 19-11-2008 9:31am

Well concealment is the reason, I have no problem with it frankly. Rifles and shotguns are still legal.

Mr. Presentable · 19-11-2008 9:37am

As a non shooter;

Where do you practise with your pistols?

Is the problem people having their legit guns stolen for use by criminals?

Is 1700 Glocks not a lot for what's a fringe hobby?

If you have proper managed clubs could a compromise not be that the guns are not taken home?

Grizzly 45 · 19-11-2008 9:38am

And when they come for your rifles and shotguns ..Will you have a problem then????:rolleyes::rolleyes::mad::mad:

sharps · 19-11-2008 9:41am

Well its now offical, on radio news at 9.00 this morning it was announced that All pistols are now banned for everyone due to the gun crime in limerick, licences will not be renewed in July, this is not a maybe or a might happen, it has happened, pistols are gone.

tba · 19-11-2008 9:42am

Its not like all guns have been banned, just ones that are easy to hide.

Grizzly 45 · 19-11-2008 9:44am

No next will be shotguns and rifles that they dont like the look of.:mad:

gofaster_s13 · 19-11-2008 9:44am

Only a matter of time before rifles etc. go the same way now that the anti gun lobbyists have the bit between their teeth:mad:

rrpc · 19-11-2008 9:45am

nipplenuts wrote: »

As a non shooter;

Where do you practise with your pistols?

Is the problem people having their legit guns stolen for use by criminals?

Is 1700 Glocks not a lot for what's a fringe hobby?

Good questions nipplenuts

Firstly there are a number of authorised clubs around the country, coincidentally where the most licences have been issued. Who'd have thunk it

Secondly, one of the things I've learned from this episode is just how inaccurate the news reports are. And I mean really way-out off the wall inaccurate.

I heard that '1700 Glocks' on Newstalk last night and nearly crashed the car!

There simply aren't. There are about 1850 licensed pistols in the country including air pistols, small calibre pistols, humane killers, starting pistols etc.

I honestly don't kow how many Glocks there are, but its not that many. Possibly 100 or so, maybe even less.

Another famous misquote was Paul Reynolds on RTE news at one saying that the Garda Commissioner told the Public Accounts Committee that 800 legally held firearms had ben recovered from criminals.

He actually said 'illegally held'. :mad:

As for leaving firearms in clubs, well that's just not very secure. These are places that are not inhabited for long periods of the day and therefore security would be compromised. As it is the requirement for a pistol licence involves gun safes, monitored alarm systems and properly lockable windows and doors.

kevin7898 · 19-11-2008 9:45am

well i dont own a pistol but a good few do it worng wath there done the never get a way with it or well they there a sad crowd

Trojan911 · 19-11-2008 9:49am

kerryman12 wrote: »

Depressing news for sure. But to be honest not surprising anymore.

I agree, I smelt this coming for a while. It is a very disappointing decision for the decent, law abiding, regulated legally held pistol owners in Ireland, who enjoy their discipline, who go through such rigorous background checks, implement huge costs to ensure the safe keeping of the said handgun by installing the likes of a monitored house alarm, safe etc.

Now it is to be stripped away again because of, in my opinion, a knee jerk reaction by people who don't really have an iota of what the sport is about and proceed to associate legally held handgun owners with a minority of street thugs.

Yet again, the innocence suffer because of these handful of street thugs, which the Government appear to be unable to control, but yet they target the easy ones, the majority, the law abiding decent member of the public.

I am not a hand gun owner, I am a hunter and I will stand united with anyone in the shooting fraternity in helping to reverse this decision.

whydave · 19-11-2008 9:54am

Trojan911 wrote: »

I am not a hand gun owner, I am a hunter and I will stand united with anyone in the shooting fraternity in helping to reverse this decision.

+1

gofaster_s13 · 19-11-2008 9:54am

kevin7898 wrote: »

well i dont own a pistol but a good few do it worng wath there done the never get a way with it or well they there a sad crowd

WTF

LB6 · 19-11-2008 9:57am

i was thinking that too - what he said with some time applied to it - i think is -
"well i dont own a pistol but a good few do it worng wath there done the never get a way with it or well they there a sad crowd - well I don't own a pistol, but a good few do, it's wrong what their doing, they will never get away with it, or will they? - they're a sad crowd" or something along those lines!

However we look at it - it's not good news for the law abiding ppl in our community.

Trojan911 · 19-11-2008 10:00am

.270 remington wrote: »

i wonder will we get any compensation for our guns/equipment

I was one of those in the UK when the Labour Government revoked all Section 1's after the tragic circumstances of Dunblane. We were fully compensated for our handguns. But that was the UK.

Hagar · 19-11-2008 10:01am

Saw this on TV3 News this morning, they showed a clip of a Garda showing off several handguns and a mini machinepistol complete with an enormous silencer. Talk about spin and demonising something.:mad:

Grizzly 45 · 19-11-2008 10:04am

Wouldnt hold my breath on that one!With the Gombeen politics that are pulled on us here regurlary it would be proably be an insult anyway.!!
Best thing we can do now is ,move them on ,up and out of here.

Vegeta · 19-11-2008 10:06am

Ok so we need to get a reply from the Minister (or his office) on this

We are being a bit knee jerk at the moment. ourselves, the papers and other new media have been quite disappointing over the last few weeks. Their levels of research are staggeringly shallow.

Anyone get word back from the Dept. of Justice or the Minister himself?

Sparks · 19-11-2008 10:08am

tba wrote: »

Its not like all guns have been banned, just ones that are easy to hide.

Ever try to hide a two-foot long olympic air pistol? It's longer than the sawn-off shotguns you see used by criminals to hold up post offices.

kevin7898 · 19-11-2008 10:09am

sorry lb6 im new at this

sixpointfive · 19-11-2008 10:13am

Can someone fill me in here, am i right in saying that my .22 target pistol licence will not be renew in july next year and i will have to hand it to a gun dealer to be sold, ? who the fcuk is going to buy it??????? so im now set to loose €1500+ because of the criminal element and because of the new buzz word "GLOCKS", i doubt there are too many "Glock".22 pistols out there or scumbags shooting each other with them, i wouldnt be so pi55ed off if they would compensate us for them and if i can get another rifle instead but i think that is a non runner

Sparks · 19-11-2008 10:15am

And my air pistol as well, if what we've heard is true.
The problem is, we don't know if it's true or not - the Times and RTE have in the last week shown they really couldn't be bothered to even quote people correctly in the gist of what they're saying, let alone the words - see RRPC's point above about how the Commissioner said one thing, and the papers reported he'd said the complete opposite.

Sparks · 19-11-2008 10:17am

Vegeta wrote: »

Ok so we need to get a reply from the Minister (or his office) on this

I've asked for one but not gotten a reply yet. I think the shooting bodies are currently looking for the same thing, but noone's gotten any reply I've heard of yet.

bigred · 19-11-2008 10:17am

When someone gets something solid from DOJ or the ministers office, will they just sticky it - we'll get lost in this thread otherwise

gofaster_s13 · 19-11-2008 10:20am

How long before the few infamous superintendants who dislike .223's etc start disputing having to issue licenses for these now that they have the public on their side:mad:

Sparks · 19-11-2008 10:20am

merging this with the main thread on this topic.
TBA, like I said over there, you can't conceal a two-foot-long air pistol.

Sparks · 19-11-2008 10:21am

Will do bigred.

civdef · 19-11-2008 10:27am

Some time back an awful lot of us rang TDs to protest disproportionate increases in licence fees, time to do the same again. TD's need to appreciate this is going to affect them at local level.

sixpointfive · 19-11-2008 10:45am

This is so irish, it doesnt affect the criminals one bit and it wont have any effect on the gun crime, they will still be running around with their famed glocks blasting each other any anyone else unfortunate enough to be close by

chem · 19-11-2008 10:52am

Just off phone to DOJ press office. Statement to be released later today by them! Getting it emailed to me. Bloke on phone might have let slip a small bit of info to me. He said it wont be a blanket ban on pistols

Some hope so???

Vegeta · 19-11-2008 10:52am

civdef wrote: »

Some time back an awful lot of us rang TDs to protest disproportionate increases in licence fees, time to do the same again. TD's need to appreciate this is going to affect them at local level.

I wholeheartedly agree with you civdef. If this turns out to be true then we have to show what it means to us.

Personally I am going to wait for clarification before I start the mailing campaign. E-mails and letters with overly aggressive and negative tone (not that I would write one like this), when in reality there is nothing new being announced, will not paint us in the best light.

This could genuinely be a case where the Minister implies he is going to implement the restricted lists and the media take it as a ban.

I know the NGBs must desperately be looking for clarification so lets see how they get on.

civdef · 19-11-2008 10:56am

Agreed, holding off till we get clarification si the way to go on this, media reports are far too unreliable to depend on.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

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