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"Nothing is safe as sweeping cuts loom"

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  • 12-01-2009 5:26pm
    #1
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    So, the government is to make sweeping cuts in order to shore up the public finances. The HSE is already planning to scrap A & E services in both Nenagh and Ennis.

    Are more cuts coming to AGS? Will frontline policing get hit? I am guessing that the recently announced policing plan for 2009 will have some planned programmes / roll outs curtailed.


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    #2
    FGR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭FGR


    The easy targets will be hit, imo -

    Another delay to Tetra; a massive postponement to the procurement of Pepper Spray. Overtime will also be exceptionally cut so the result? Far fewer Gardai on the streets.


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    #3
    brown bear
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭brown bear


    ForegoneReality wrote: »
    The easy targets will be hit, imo -

    Another delay to Tetra; a massive postponement to the procurement of Pepper Spray. Overtime will also be exceptionally cut so the result? Far fewer Gardai on the streets.

    OT Will Be gone, ITS ALL BUT A DISTANT MEMORY


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    #4
    Tango Alpha 51
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Tango Alpha 51


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    So, the government is to make sweeping cuts in order to shore up the public finances. The HSE is already planning to scrap A & E services in both Nenagh and Ennis.

    And how pray tell are we on the ground supposed to deal with the above. We don't have the manpower due to cutbacks, non recruiting over the years, bad management on both a local & national level etc. All that's going to happen is that the pt will suffer & the paramedics on the ground will get burnt out from dealing with the additional workload.:mad::mad:


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    #5
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    I wonder what cuts have been made within the higher elements of any emergency service?

    It is evident that the frontlines have certainly been affected.


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    #6
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    I predict here and now that all our salaries will be cut by some level. They are asking for 5% so Im going to guess that 2 or 3% is what will happen. They will lower numbers through retirements ans we will go back to 12000 with all civilian staff being replaced by members (again).

    The same for DFB, Army, nurses and prisons. The prisons are already being asked to amend their overtime agreement and Im sure DFB, nurses and Army will be asked for various things through their own heads.

    You know whats funny about this? I hear about mass unemployment in the private sector but Im not seeing any bank or office staff getting sacked or having their incomes reduced. Its all in the construction and labour markets (my brother is a sparks and has been let go) so why are we expected to take cuts when our increases never matched the private sector to begin with and our abilities are still in demand? I dont remember a builder offering up part of his wages for my benefit!

    In fact, **** it. Im keeping my wages, I work hard, Im needed, I have bills to pay and I have had to listen to smug IT, construction and legal people tell me how much more they earn for the past ten years.:mad:


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    #7
    brown bear
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭brown bear


    yep 5% cut for the guards, sniff sniff, is that man flu, no its blue flu i feel


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    #8
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Erm, prison staff, wtf? Seriously? They need more staff in the over crowded prisons, and unless they take on a few hundred more staff, less overtime is shooting themselves in the foot. As for nurses, etc, most do a lot of overtime, otherwise the people coming in would be f**ked. I'd say most people get injured outside of the 9-5 hours. As for the army, yeah, what are they thinking, that war stops at 5pm? Don't know who the DFB are.


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    #9
    eroo
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    the_syco wrote: »
    As for the army, yeah, what are they thinking, that war stops at 5pm?
    What?


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    #10
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    buzzman wrote: »
    And how pray tell are we on the ground supposed to deal with the above. We don't have the manpower due to cutbacks, non recruiting over the years, bad management on both a local & national level etc. All that's going to happen is that the pt will suffer & the paramedics on the ground will get burnt out from dealing with the additional workload.:mad::mad:

    I do know that the closure of the A&E services will greatly affect the Mid-West. They expect the out of hours GP services to deal with people who go through the A&E, which is absolutely rubbish. Local GP out of hours services have seen attendance spike over the last few years, yet no pressure is being taken off the A&E units – GP out of hours services cannot do X-Rays, and if someone has a heart attack then they simply must be admitted to A&E.

    To suggest that GP out of hour’s services will be able to take the load when the A&E units close is absolutely ridiculous. The Regional Hospital in Limerick will be overcrowded, especially at weekends – it already is.

    I don’t see how they expect the Regional Hospital in Limerick to deal with people from all of Clare, North Tipperary and County Limerick.


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    #11
    Relevant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Relevant


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    You know whats funny about this? I hear about mass unemployment in the private sector but Im not seeing any bank or office staff getting sacked or having their incomes reduced.

    That is definitely not the case. There is a steady flow of redundancies and contracts not being renewed. You just dont hear about it because its not one large amount at once, but its certainly happening every week


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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ForegoneReality wrote: »
    The easy targets will be hit, imo -

    Another delay to Tetra

    I'm in a DMR station and we have dates for Tetra set's to be installed in the patrol cars within the next month so hopefully that project isn't going to be cut.


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    #13
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    You know whats funny about this? I hear about mass unemployment in the private sector but Im not seeing any bank or office staff getting sacked or having their incomes reduced.

    Think again.
    Maybe 10 people from one office and maybe 15 from another, replicate in every town and city in the country and it adds up. Not headline news but it sure happens

    FBD Insurance close 13 branch offices


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    #14
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    No one I know has been let go and last I checked people were still driving cars which means they still need insurance. People still go to hospital, etc and the list goes on.

    the live register has increased but its not even close to the numbers people seem to think and spread over the entire country its not a state of collapse.

    I assume the private sector will be taking a pay decrease as well?


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    #15
    Relevant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Relevant


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    No one I know has been let go and last I checked people were still driving cars which means they still need insurance. People still go to hospital, etc and the list goes on.

    the live register has increased but its not even close to the numbers people seem to think and spread over the entire country its not a state of collapse.

    I assume the private sector will be taking a pay decrease as well?

    http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0109/jobless.html

    Unemployment has risen 121,000 in a year! Now i am not saying the Public Sector should get a pay cut, far from it, but to say that the private sector is not suffering is laughable


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    #16
    ScubaDave
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ScubaDave


    If i recall correctly, the figures are approx. 5000 a week losing their jobs!


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    #17
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Relevant wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0109/jobless.html

    Unemployment has risen 121,000 in a year! Now i am not saying the Public Sector should get a pay cut, far from it, but to say that the private sector is not suffering is laughable

    Out of what, 2 million? How many of them were / are part-time? How many have left the country but still claiming (the system works slowly)? How many have never had a job or looked for one? 121,000 is a small figure in comparison to the entire country.

    You have to remember that according to the latest figures available some 118,000 foreign nationals applied for pps numbers in 2004 alone and were therefore part of the stats. From them only 45% were employed in the year 2007. Thats a staggering 60,000 or thereabouts that came into the country and form part of our unemployed. (your on the list even if your not actually getting the dole)

    Then of course we have to remember that construction slows down in the winter months and its common enough for construction workers to be 'let go' for a period over christmas.

    You also have to wonder how they got that figure considering the cso places actual unemployment in December at 143,000. Thats less than 2% unemployment for the nation. (population total V unemployed total)


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    #18
    Geri Boyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Geri Boyle


    Id have to disagree with you Karlitosway. I was let go a few months back. In the past year about 70% of the non-management staff in the office I worked were let go. About 90% of the people I went to college with have been let go or had their hours cut. I know of horror stories from other offices of people literally bidding against each other to keep their jobs. Alot of redundant staff have left the country so the figures if anything are underestimated. In my circle job security is the exception right now.


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    #19
    deadwood
    Registered Users Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭deadwood


    Didn't management "decline" the recent controversial pay increase in the region of 15%?

    An example to all us greedy little pigs.


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    #20
    Geri Boyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Geri Boyle


    Senior management in our place took a 20% pay cut. Junior management took 15% and staff took 10% .. I dont agree that public sector should have to take the hit when there is a demand for the job but dont underestimate the impact its had on the private sector. Less people employed also means less company cars (new car sales down 2/3rds) which means less people being insured which means more redundancies in that industry and a huge tax deficit which means more cutbacks across the board. The future is bleak.


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    #21
    FGR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭FGR


    On a serious note: I still don't understand why Government's so anxious about introducing Voluntary redundancies. I know many people who would leave the job and try something new or possibly even go abroad. It'll also allow the state to trim the fat out of admin that has always been costing the state a fortune.

    On a lighter completely non serious note: If I take a 10% pay cut does that mean I'll get 10% more time off? :D


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    #22
    Relevant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭Relevant


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    Out of what, 2 million? How many of them were / are part-time? How many have left the country but still claiming (the system works slowly)? How many have never had a job or looked for one? 121,000 is a small figure in comparison to the entire country.

    You have to remember that according to the latest figures available some 118,000 foreign nationals applied for pps numbers in 2004 alone and were therefore part of the stats. From them only 45% were employed in the year 2007. Thats a staggering 60,000 or thereabouts that came into the country and form part of our unemployed. (your on the list even if your not actually getting the dole)

    Then of course we have to remember that construction slows down in the winter months and its common enough for construction workers to be 'let go' for a period over christmas.

    You also have to wonder how they got that figure considering the cso places actual unemployment in December at 143,000. Thats less than 2% unemployment for the nation. (population total V unemployed total)

    Your statistics are all over the place. The 121,000 is an increase in the year. Not the total. Therefore that figure does not include people who have never worked. Since it is a rise since last december it will be seasonally adjusted and already take account of people not working over christmas.

    Also you use 2million as the figure for people available to work and then say that 143,000 is only 2% unemployment. If you are to go by your figures it is approximately 7.15%.

    To put this "small" number of 143,000 intp perspective There are around 14,000 gardai in the country (source: Wikipedia) That amount of people unemployed is TEN times the amount of Gardai in the country


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    #23
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    ForegoneReality wrote: »
    On a lighter completely non serious note: If I take a 10% pay cut does that mean I'll get 10% more time off? :D

    Wasnt that suggested recently that some admin staff do a four day week?

    Might be a good idea if people were asked to take say a 5% cut in wage for a four day week. People would recoup some of that loss through saving in transport cost to and from work, child minding cost etc.

    I heard recently back in the recession of the 1980's Gardai were not allowed to patrol but could only go to a call only. Could we be heading that way again?


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    #24
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    TheNog wrote: »
    I heard recently back in the recession of the 1980's Gardai were not allowed to patrol but could only go to a call only. Could we be heading that way again?
    Today much of the urban patrol work is carried out in the control room of a CCTV monitoring station.


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    #25
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Today much of the urban patrol work is carried out in the control room of a CCTV monitoring station.

    I would agree with you if we lived in England but here in this country urban policing is mostly done by human patrol. Of course that is if you are talking about CCTV operated by AGS


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    #26
    Tango Alpha 51
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Tango Alpha 51


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    I do know that the closure of the A&E services will greatly affect the Mid-West. They expect the out of hours GP services to deal with people who go through the A&E, which is absolutely rubbish. Local GP out of hours services have seen attendance spike over the last few years, yet no pressure is being taken off the A&E units – GP out of hours services cannot do X-Rays, and if someone has a heart attack then they simply must be admitted to A&E.

    To suggest that GP out of hour’s services will be able to take the load when the A&E units close is absolutely ridiculous. The Regional Hospital in Limerick will be overcrowded, especially at weekends – it already is.

    I don’t see how they expect the Regional Hospital in Limerick to deal with people from all of Clare, North Tipperary and County Limerick.


    SO,
    I agree with you to a point but chronic longterm illness should not be sent to an ED. They would be better off managed at home etc. A lot of things need to change in order to make the system better & that includes GP's/Nursing Homes etc.


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    #27
    Tango Alpha 51
    Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Tango Alpha 51


    the_syco wrote: »
    Erm, prison staff, wtf? Seriously? They need more staff in the over crowded prisons, and unless they take on a few hundred more staff, less overtime is shooting themselves in the foot. As for nurses, etc, most do a lot of overtime, otherwise the people coming in would be f**ked. I'd say most people get injured outside of the 9-5 hours. As for the army, yeah, what are they thinking, that war stops at 5pm? Don't know who the DFB are.


    DFB = Dublin Fire Brigade. They supply Dublin's Fire & Rescue Service as well as an Emergency Ambulance Service in Dublin City


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    #28
    shakin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭shakin


    just wondering would the proposed cut affect a trainees wages or is that exempt as its an allowance rather than a wage?


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    #29
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    buzzman wrote: »
    SO,
    I agree with you to a point but chronic longterm illness should not be sent to an ED. They would be better off managed at home etc. A lot of things need to change in order to make the system better & that includes GP's/Nursing Homes etc.

    If a lot of things need to be done to the system, they could start by creating a new contract for GP's/Nurses.

    The government/HSE expect to be able to shift patients onto GP's without increasing funding. GP's are expected to provide their own premises, and manage their own practices as it stands at the moment - the current GP contract is what, over 20 years old? Its a bum deal.

    Also, a GP can never take over the full role of an A&E department.


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    #30
    CLADA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 651 ✭✭✭CLADA


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Today much of the urban patrol work is carried out in the control room of a CCTV monitoring station.

    You really do have a camera fetish, don't you?


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    #31
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Relevant wrote: »
    Your statistics are all over the place. The 121,000 is an increase in the year. Not the total. Therefore that figure does not include people who have never worked.

    My stats come direct from the cso. If your debating them then what would you use? The increase to the year includes people that have finished college, finished school, finished various trainee courses and above all, immigrants.
    Relevant wrote: »
    Since it is a rise since last december it will be seasonally adjusted and already take account of people not working over christmas.

    No it hasnt as the adjustments are not done until the end of January to see how many have gone back to work.
    Relevant wrote: »
    Also you use 2million as the figure for people available to work and then say that 143,000 is only 2% unemployment. If you are to go by your figures it is approximately 7.15%.

    Correct. My 2% was clearly based on population V unemployment. I stated that. 7.15% unemployment is still a very respectable figure on a global stage. In fact, its pretty bloody good so again, recession? yes. Mass unemployment? Nope.
    Relevant wrote: »
    To put this "small" number of 143,000 intp perspective There are around 14,000 gardai in the country (source: Wikipedia) That amount of people unemployed is TEN times the amount of Gardai in the country

    So? I fail to see your point. What is it? Its 143000 times the amount of Taoiseachs we have. 18 times the amount of soldiers. Half the last recorded amount of construction workers. Thats not relevent in the slightest. Perhaps we should give them all uniforms is that what your getting at?

    So, can you put a number on how many people have been let go from each sector? How many were seasonal workers? Part-time? Students? How many are no longer in the state having left since signing on? How many moved here from other eu states but have yet to actually work?
    shakin wrote: »
    just wondering would the proposed cut affect a trainees wages or is that exempt as its an allowance rather than a wage?

    This is part of the problem. On the one hand are we expecting those on minimum wage or low income to take a 5% hit? What about trainees? they already make less than minimum wage as it is.
    Blue Belle wrote: »
    Id have to disagree with you Karlitosway. I was let go a few months back. In the past year about 70% of the non-management staff in the office I worked were let go. About 90% of the people I went to college with have been let go or had their hours cut. I know of horror stories from other offices of people literally bidding against each other to keep their jobs. Alot of redundant staff have left the country so the figures if anything are underestimated. In my circle job security is the exception right now.

    That would put unemployment above 50% at a very reserved estimate in your industry. Think about what your saying. Companies have always been going bust but to suggest any sector is losing those figures makes no sense considering those figures arent even being touted for the construction sector.

    Also, new car sales doesnt have a major impact on car insurance. Insurance is dictated by the amount of cars on the road regardless of age. Put another way, if I buy a new car or dont, I still need to insure a car. Also, less new cars being sold means more old cars on the road which impacts on the nct. More money gor the government through increased testing and extra jobs needed to test the additional vehicles.

    Besides, arent you looking to be a Garda?

    So to go back to topic. My point still stands. Public servants remain needed and secure so why should we give up 5% for construction workers when they have milked every cent over the last 15 years without any special government demands? Why arent the banks been made to help out more? FFS, they arent even giving out the full mortgage reduction and for people like me, wont allow us to break out of fixed rates.


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