Garda Representatives Association - Major Increase In Assaults On Gardai

Sierra Oscar · 08-02-2009 2:39pm #1

The Garda Representative Association says there been a sharp rise in the number of assaults on their members.

Official figures state that assaults have increased by 84% over the last three years.

Gardaí say they hope the go-ahead for them to use pepper spray will reverse this.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnidkfcwsn/

Just goes to show the urgent need for pepper spray to be provided to all members of the Gardai. An 84% increase is shocking to be honest.

Should be interesting to see if a break down of the figures are released.

biggus · 08-02-2009 3:15pm

Consecquence of dropping the minimum height rule coming home to roost.....

can't beat (excuse the pun) a bit of physical presence in high tension situations... even if it does lead to a bit of slagging and stereo typing.
Like the banking world ...maybe some of the old rules are best and suprisingly well thought out. back to basics i say.

cushtac · 08-02-2009 5:42pm

biggus wrote: »

Consecquence of dropping the minimum height rule coming home to roost.....

can't beat (excuse the pun) a bit of physical presence in high tension situations... even if it does lead to a bit of slagging and stereo typing.
Like the banking world ...maybe some of the old rules are best and suprisingly well thought out. back to basics i say.

Rubbish, it's a consequence of the state's failure to adequately punish those who assault others. Gougers aren't afraid of getting done for assault, so they'll have a go at anyone. I also don't personally know of any Gardaí who've been assaulted by just one person - in every case it's been a group of attackers, so I don't see how being a bit taller would have saved them.

Ian Beale · 08-02-2009 5:53pm

cushtac wrote: »

Rubbish, it's a consequence of the state's failure to adequately punish those who assault others. Gougers aren't afraid of getting done for assault, so they'll have a go at anyone. I also don't personally know of any Gardaí who've been assaulted by just one person - in every case it's been a group of attackers, so I don't see how being a bit taller would have saved them.

To be fair, a taller person is more intimidating then a short person. There should be harsh sentences for attacking Gardaí no ifs ands or buts regardless how drunk the person is or not.

cushtac · 08-02-2009 6:20pm

Ian Beale wrote: »

To be fair, a taller person is more intimidating then a short person. There should be harsh sentences for attacking Gardaí no ifs ands or buts regardless how drunk the person is or not.

One tall person isn't going to matter to a gang of scumbags any more than a short person would, even less so when the scumbags are coked out of it. There are harsh penalties available but the DPP don't seem to look for them and the judiciary aren't dishing them out. If people don't get harsh punishments for violent assault they're not going to fear getting caught & won't be discouraged.

Eru · 08-02-2009 7:38pm

biggus wrote: »

Consecquence of dropping the minimum height rule coming home to roost.....

can't beat (excuse the pun) a bit of physical presence in high tension situations... even if it does lead to a bit of slagging and stereo typing.
Like the banking world ...maybe some of the old rules are best and suprisingly well thought out. back to basics i say.

Ian Beale wrote: »

To be fair, a taller person is more intimidating then a short person. There should be harsh sentences for attacking Gardaí no ifs ands or buts regardless how drunk the person is or not.

Have to call complete bollox on these ones lads. Are either of you working on experience here? Doubt it.

For starters, you have a 5ft 8in 16 stone weightlifter, boxer. martial artist, rugby player, etc or you can have a 6ft 9 stone marathon runner.

Your telling me its the tall lad that looks like he can handle himself more than the short lad? A persons ability to to defend themself has to do with mental and physical toughness, stamina, strenght, training and plain and simple ability. It has little to do with height. In fact, height is probable the least important aspect.

metman · 08-02-2009 7:48pm

cushtac wrote: »

and the judiciary aren't dishing them out.

Harsher sentence means prison, which means more prison spaces, which means building more prisons, which means more government money.... but the government can't afford any such outlay....how could it when the taoiseach's salary alone is one of the highest of any european premier and higher than the US president :rolleyes:

We salute you!

eroo · 08-02-2009 9:25pm

Eru wrote: »

For starters, you have a 5ft 8in 16 stone weightlifter, boxer. martial artist, rugby player, etc or you can have a 6ft 9 stone marathon runner.

+1

There is a reason most Security Guard's or Door Personnel aren't 'marathon runners', same goes for Gardai imo. But that means nothing; the real issue is that Gardai are given pepper spray ASAP..

metman · 08-02-2009 9:56pm

eroo wrote: »

There is a reason most Security Guard's or Door Personnel aren't 'marathon runners', same goes for Gardai imo.

Too many snack-boxes? :P

Satan Polaroid · 08-02-2009 10:00pm

I've been seriously assaulted twice, and not-so-seriously assaulted numerous times.

I guess I am just a really likeable guy

eroo · 08-02-2009 10:05pm

metman wrote: »

Too many snack-boxes? :P

No, you see, that is just their stab vests and fleeces underneath that give that appearance. They are all actually super fit crime fightingApache pizza munching machines!

Random · 08-02-2009 10:07pm

Is it just a sign of the times? That Garda cannot rule through respect alone, they need to use more force (or have more force available to them)? Is it the first motivation toward arming the whole force?

Satan Polaroid · 08-02-2009 10:23pm

Random wrote: »

Is it just a sign of the times? That Garda cannot rule through respect alone, they need to use more force (or have more force available to them)? Is it the first motivation toward arming the whole force?

We need more force available to us.

The asps were a good start, but Pepper Spray will help reduce the amount of assaults on Gardaí.

In fact, I think you will find that the Pepper Spray will become the primary defence for the Gardaí, ahead of the asp.

metman · 08-02-2009 10:32pm

Satan Polaroid wrote: »

We need more force available to us.

The asps were a good start, but Pepper Spray will help reduce the amount of assaults on Gardaí.

In fact, I think you will find that the Pepper Spray will become the primary defence for the Gardaí, ahead of the asp.

Its all about having options.

Does carrying CS reduce the number of assaults on police? I can safely say that it often most definitely prevents further assaults taking place, i.e suspects kicks off, gets gassed, loses will/ability to fight, cuffed, locked up.

If you have something in between nothing and asp, then better for you and better for the recipient. If you can squeeze a taser in there, even better

In some respects spray is better than an asp as it can be used simultaneously on multiple suspects and can produce a more effective result without having to beat the sh*te out of someone to gain compliance.

donvito99 · 09-02-2009 8:42pm

IMO, the ASP/monadnock whatever is a lost cause nowadays. If its filmed it'll be tagged police brutality. Only in very serious situations could it be used without indymedia going ballistic.

cushtac · 09-02-2009 9:49pm

donvito99 wrote: »

IMO, the ASP/monadnock whatever is a lost cause nowadays. If its filmed it'll be tagged police brutality. Only in very serious situations could it be used without indymedia going ballistic.

It doesn't matter what Indymedia or the like think, so long as Gardaí use the baton according to how they were taught they'll be ok. Gardaí should not be afraid to use the baton if the need is there.

donvito99 · 09-02-2009 10:00pm

cushtac wrote: »

It doesn't matter what Indymedia or the like think, so long as Gardaí use the baton according to how they were taught they'll be ok. Gardaí should not be afraid to use the baton if the need is there.

But the fact is they are afraid, and its not just Indymedia, any sort of blow to the head that results in an injury to a member of the public would mean an investigation by the ombudsman and management being management will most likely sack the garda, even if he was in the right, because of public pressure.

I am fully supportive of the use of the baton in serious situations, but this is why spray is so important, its the situation where you dont need to use the baton and where pepper spray is ideal, but at the mo Gardai have no other option.

metman · 09-02-2009 10:56pm

donvito99 wrote: »

But the fact is they are afraid, and its not just Indymedia, any sort of blow to the head that results in an injury to a member of the public would mean an investigation by the ombudsman and management being management will most likely sack the garda, even if he was in the right, because of public pressure

So long as you can justify your use of force you have nothing to worry about. Using lethal baton strikes is permitted provided the level of force is justified. When someone dies after police action there will always be an investigation, regardless of the circumstances, and rightly so. This is part and parcel of building better public confidence in the police.

As for 'management being management'......what involvement have you had with AGS management to be the voice of experience?

:rolleyes:

Sierra Oscar · 09-02-2009 11:22pm

metman wrote: »

So long as you can justify your use of force you have nothing to worry about. Using lethal baton strikes is permitted provided the level of force is justified. When someone dies after police action there will always be an investigation, regardless of the circumstances, and rightly so. This is part and parcel of building better public confidence in the police.

As for 'management being management'......what involvement have you had with AGS management to be the voice of experience? :rolleyes:

I think however there is a general fear of being investigated by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, due to what some would describe their heavy handed tactics of investigation.

It is a serious problem in my view as to where you draw the line, I think it is evident that Gardai are more hesitant to use force now - and look, the statistics themselves now clearly show that assaults have increased on Gardai.

cushtac · 10-02-2009 12:09am

donvito99 wrote: »

But the fact is they are afraid, and its not just Indymedia, any sort of blow to the head that results in an injury to a member of the public would mean an investigation by the ombudsman and management being management will most likely sack the garda, even if he was in the right, because of public pressure.

I am fully supportive of the use of the baton in serious situations, but this is why spray is so important, its the situation where you dont need to use the baton and where pepper spray is ideal, but at the mo Gardai have no other option.

You don't hit people in the head with the ASP, that is covered in training and that is why I said that Gardaí should not be afraid to use the baton in the manner in which they are trained.

Complaints will be made regardless of what equipment is used by Gardaí, but where Gardaí use their equipment properly & in accordance with the law they will have nothing to fear.

And I have yet to work with someone who's been afraid to draw the baton where the situation has warranted it.

ScubaDave · 10-02-2009 4:40am

Sorry folks - i have experienced this first hand! Members that are waiting to be injured first, before even considering the use of a baton! When you have cigs and supers wanting a report about the use of the baton so detailed that james joyce himself couldnt understand it - members are terrified of what GSOC will be looking at!

Alot of members, in my experience junior members, feel that if the baton is used you are guilty of assault in the eyes of the job until you can prove beyond any doubt that you had to use it!

Members have a split second to make a decision - everyone else has months and years to tear that decision apart! The fear of this persecution is what results in members being so hesitant to draw there batons and strike a suspect!

If you look at pursuits - if gardai are chasing a car and it crashes and injuries are occured by the suspects - gardai are in a world of $hit!

daithip · 10-02-2009 8:46am

ScubaDave wrote: »

Sorry folks - i have experienced this first hand! Members that are waiting to be injured first, before even considering the use of a baton! When you have cigs and supers wanting a report about the use of the baton so detailed that james joyce himself couldnt understand it - members are terrified of what GSOC will be looking at!

Alot of members, in my experience junior members, feel that if the baton is used you are guilty of assault in the eyes of the job until you can prove beyond any doubt that you had to use it!

Members have a split second to make a decision - everyone else has months and years to tear that decision apart! The fear of this persecution is what results in members being so hesitant to draw there batons and strike a suspect!

If you look at pursuits - if gardai are chasing a car and it crashes and injuries are occured by the suspects - gardai are in a world of $hit!

Couldn't agree more Dave. Also, in my experience, I've found any complaint of assault investigated by GSOC appears to be tagged as guilty until proven innocent, with their only objective of finding out what wrong the member did, without checking up events leading to the allegation. With this in mind its no wonder members are hesitant in drawing asps, especially probationers who can sacked at the drop of a hat!!

Eru · 10-02-2009 3:40pm

Its a pretty simple decision. Draw your baton get investigated and hung out to dry by the state. Dont draw and take the kicking, get a big fat cheque from the state.

Tough call

donvito99 · 10-02-2009 6:25pm

metman wrote: »

As for 'management being management'......what involvement have you had with AGS management to be the voice of experience? :rolleyes:

From hearin' all the Guards on boards whingin about everything!

trentf · 11-02-2009 6:11pm

I think all gaurds should be issued with pepper spray. Havin taken a shot in the face from pepper spray, i can tell you you won't be putting up any fight or having any trouble being coheresed into the back of a garda car.

donvito99 · 11-02-2009 9:06pm

Imagine a guard sprayin someone with that smug look on his/her face?

Garda Representatives Association - Major Increase In Assaults On Gardai

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