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The Great Ida Debate

  • 18-05-2009 12:30pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    The discovery of a 47 million year old lemur like primate in Germany
    has been heralded as a possible ancestor of modern monkeys and apes (that includes humans BTW).

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124235632936122739.html
    In what could prove to be a landmark discovery, a leading paleontologist said scientists have dug up the 47 million-year-old fossil of an ancient primate whose features suggest it could be the common ancestor of all later monkeys, apes and humans.

    Anthropologists have long believed that humans evolved from ancient ape-like ancestors. Some 50 million years ago, two ape-like groups walked the Earth. One is known as the tarsidae, a precursor of the tarsier, a tiny, large-eyed creature that lives in Asia. Another group is known as the adapidae, a precursor of today's lemurs in Madagascar.

    Based on previously limited fossil evidence, one big debate had been whether the tarsidae or adapidae group gave rise to monkeys, apes and humans. The latest discovery bolsters the less common position that our ancient ape-like ancestor was an adapid, the believed precursor of lemurs.

    Philip Gingerich, president-elect of the Paleontological Society in the U.S., has co-written a paper that will detail next week the latest fossil discovery in Public Library of Science, a peer-reviewed, online journal.

    "This discovery brings a forgotten group into focus as a possible ancestor of higher primates," Mr. Gingerich, a professor of paleontology at the University of Michigan, said in an interview.

    The discovery has little bearing on a separate paleontological debate centering on the identity of a common ancestor of chimps and humans, which could have lived about six million years ago and still hasn't been found. That gap in the evolution story is colloquially referred to as the "missing link" controversy. In reality, though, all gaps in the fossil record are technically "missing links" until filled in, and many scientists say the term is meaningless.

    Nonetheless, the latest fossil find is likely to ignite further the debate between evolutionists who draw conclusions based on a limited fossil record, and creationists who don't believe that humans, monkeys and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

    Scientists won't necessarily agree about the details either. "Lemur advocates will be delighted, but tarsier advocates will be underwhelmed" by the new evidence, says Tim White, a paleontologist at the University of California, Berkeley. "The debate will persist."

    The skeleton will be unveiled at New York City's American Museum of Natural History next Tuesday by Mayor Michael Bloomberg and an international team involved in the discovery.

    According to Prof. Gingerich, the fossilized remains are of a young female adapid. The skeleton was unearthed by collectors about two years ago and has been kept tightly under wraps since then, in an unusual feat of scientific secrecy.

    Prof. Gingerich said he had twice examined the adapid skeleton, which was "a complete, spectacular fossil." The completeness of the preserved skeleton is crucial, because most previously found fossils of ancient primates were small finds, such as teeth and jawbones.

    It was found in the Messel Shale Pit, a disused quarry near Frankfurt, Germany. The pit has long been a World Heritage Site and is the source of a number of well-preserved fossils from the middle Eocene epoch, some 50 million years ago.

    Prof. Gingerich said several scientists, including Jorn Hurum of Norway's National History Museum, had inspected the fossil with computer tomography scanning, a sophisticated X-ray technique that can provide detailed, cross-sectional views. Dr. Hurum declined to comment.

    Although the creature looks like a lemur, there are some distinctive physical differences. Lemurs have a tooth comb (a tooth modified to help groom fur); a grooming claw; and a wet nose. Dr. Gingerich said that the adapid skeleton has neither a grooming claw nor a tooth comb. "We can't say whether it had a wet nose or not," he noted.

    Since the fossilized creature found in Germany didn't have features like a tooth comb or grooming claw, it could be argued that it gave rise to monkeys, apes and humans, which don't have these features either.

    OB-DR424_lemur_CV_20090515102422.jpg
    "Who, me?"

    - and special thanks to the user pts who alerted me to this article.


«13456

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Mr Lahey


    Breaking news on sky news that the missing link has been found
    and that there is little or no doubt that we are descended from apes.
    Interesting to see what the churches line on this will be.
    No wonder my shoulders are so damn hairy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭Captain-America


    Don't you tell me what I is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Mr Lahey wrote: »
    Breaking news on sky news that the missing link has been found
    and that there is little or no doubt that we are descended from apes.
    Interesting to see what the churches line on this will be.
    No wonder my shoulders are so damn hairy.
    IIRC, Some of the church believe evolution was crafted by god so that reduces your post to just the information that your shoulders are hairy.


    Oh yeah, seriously though, If we evolved from apes why are there still Apes walking around and not evolving?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭ Pedro Angry Coach




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭ Pedro Angry Coach


    Oh yeah, seriously though, If we evolved from apes why are there still Apes walking around and not evolving?

    They are, just at a very slow pace like everyone always did. They're not our modern day ancestors or whatever but the result of their own evolutionary line.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,358 ✭✭✭Dennis the Stone


    Corey and Trevor to the fu*k off department,
    Corey and Trevor to the fu*k off department.

    They can find the missing link but they still can't find Maddie. Science eh?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Oh yeah, seriously though, If we evolved from apes why are there still Apes walking around and not evolving?

    because there are alot of people who dont know how to read and assume we evolved from apes, when in reality we evolved from a common ancestor not from apes. They have the same ancestor as us, but they themselves are not our ancestors but more like cousins.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Smokes. Lets go.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Mr Lahey


    On a school trip years ago an orangutan hurled a huge lump of ****e at
    our class and he was a damn good shot. I think his son became a
    professional darts player.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,833 ✭✭✭✭Armin_Tamzarian


    Mr Lahey wrote: »
    Breaking news on sky news that the missing link has been found.

    That's old news.
    The missing link was discovered years ago in Clara, Co. Offaly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    They have the same ancestor as us, but they themselves are not our ancestors but more like cousins.

    They're exactly like a few cousins I have. Seriously, big knuckle-dragging lads from Offaly they are. Eat a loaf of bread whole and call it a sandwich so they would.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,317 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    because there are alot of people who dont know how to read and assume we evolved from apes, when in reality we evolved from a common ancestor not from apes. They have the same ancestor as us, but they themselves are not our ancestors but more like cousins.

    Exactly. Think of apes as you retard cousins from Cavan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Oh yeah, seriously though, If we evolved from apes why are there still Apes walking around and not evolving?

    We didn't evolve from apes. Both ourselves and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

    Edit: beaten to it :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,685 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Edit: beaten to it :)

    twice




  • Oh hey. That's my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather.

    He was a funny one, alright.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    twice

    :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,799 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    Right turn, Clyde.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,541 ✭✭✭Heisenberg.


    This post has been deleted.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Mr Lahey wrote: »
    Breaking news on sky news
    and yet there was time to write a book about it http://www.revealingthelink.com/more-about-ida/the-book

    The UK premiere of Uncovering Our Earliest Ancestor: The Link will be shown on BBC One at 9pm on Tuesday 26th May. The BBC’s version of the film is written and narrated by Sir David Attenborough.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8057465.stm
    Ida was discovered in the 1980s in a fossil treasure-trove called Messel Pit, near Darmstadt in Germany. For much of the intervening period, it has been in a private collection.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The UK premiere of Uncovering Our Earliest Ancestor: The Link will be shown on BBC One at 9pm on Tuesday 26th May. The BBC’s version of the film is written and narrated by Sir David Attenborough.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8057465.stm
    Ida was discovered in the 1980s in a fossil treasure-trove called Messel Pit, near Darmstadt in Germany. For much of the intervening period, it has been in a private collection.

    In a private collection, since the 80's :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭Captain-America


    Oh hey. That's my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather.

    He was a funny one, alright.


    That's great champ.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭A7X


    Oh hey. That's my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather.

    He was a funny one, alright.

    Some people on here try way too hard to be funny


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    The fossil is not a link between humans and other apes, it is a link between all primates and the other mammals.

    pfffffffft.




  • A7X wrote: »
    Some people on here try way too hard to be funny

    Tell me bout it. Took ages to type out them greats.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Tell me bout it. Took ages to type out them greats.
    And it looks like you didn't even get a single one wrong! That's impressive. Would've taken me hours. Still getting used to these opposable thumbs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,808 ✭✭✭✭chin_grin


    So I have a valid excuse for defecating in to my mitt and hurling it at passers by. Cool.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 23,157 Mod ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    Tago Mago wrote: »
    Corey and Trevor to the fu*k off department,
    Corey and Trevor to the fu*k off department.

    You sir are a hero! Excellent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,378 ✭✭✭Borneo Fnctn


    Sam "Caveman" Losco the is the missing link.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,097 ✭✭✭✭zuroph


    sh1tmonkeys gonna fall out of the sh1ttree now.


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