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Critical Mass/Cyclists' Rights

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  • 02-11-2009 4:54pm
    #1
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭


    I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Critical Mass cycling movement. Basically it's where a large group of cyclists meet up and then cycle through town en masse. It's designed to draw attention to cyclist issues (cycle lanes, in-town speed limits etc.).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mass


    There are a few Critical Mass rides in Ireland, although they've been sporadic of late:
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94578



    I've been following this thread on the cycling forum where the whole concept has been discussed (and quite often dismissed).
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62807845


    One poster suggested jokingly that they get the Motors heads involved. I don't think that's a bad idea, but rather than wade in over there, I'd like to see some opinions here.


    So, as motorists or motoring enthusiasts etc, what do you think of the concept?

    -Have you ever witnessed/been caught up in one of these?
    -Do you cycle? Would you participate in one of these?
    -Do you see merit in the idea?
    -How do "cyclists' rights" fit in with your everyday motoring activites/attitudes?
    -If you were involved in cycling activism, what would you think the most important issue is?


    Every year cyclists get caught under trucks and are killed or get forced off the roads by cars passing too close.
    Some cyclists break red lights and cycle the wrong way up one-way streets.

    With the Dublin Bike scheme, there will be an increase in "casual" cyclists in Dublin, what can cyclists campaign for that will keep these guys safe?


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    #2
    Johnny Utah
    Registered Users Posts: 2,157 ✭✭✭Johnny Utah


    -Chris- wrote: »
    Some Most cyclists break red lights and cycle the wrong way up one-way streets.

    .


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    #3
    Bunnyhopper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Bunnyhopper


    Johnny Utah wrote: »
    Some Most cyclists break red lights and cycle the wrong way up one-way streets.

    That's not my experience of cycling and driving around Dublin. I do see a lot of people breaking rules (red lights, one-way, footpaths, etc.), but I don't think it's a majority. I certainly don't do any of those things.

    I do think, however, that cyclists' rights and responsibilities should be part of the same discussion. As a cyclist and a motorist around Dublin I see a lot of very poor cycling (and driving, for that matter). I think any credible cycling advocacy group should be campaigning to improve the standard of road use generally, not simply asserting cyclists' rights. I don't really see how CM does that, and I worry that it is more likely to antagonize motorists and increase hostility to cyclists than it is to create a better and safer share-the-road attitude.


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    #4
    Alanstrainor
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 23,157 Mod ✭✭✭✭Alanstrainor


    I cycle everyday through town. I cover about 12kms a day at the minute, although i've only recently started back cycling after a bad accident involving another motorist which has left it's mark on my face and shoulder!
    Personally i think such protests only serve to increase the hatred towards cyclists that is already widespread. Peoples attitudes to cyclists is already appalling, by no means is this a blanket statement covering everyone, but there are a lot of people out there to "get" cyclists.
    Being a cyclist myself, i'd always be considerate when i encounter other cyclists when driving, but just as there are bad motorists, there are bad cyclists. The type with a death wish cycling at night in dark clothing without any lights. Oh and a high vis jacket is not a substitute for lights!


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    #5
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,939 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Any action that blocks up the roads for people going about their daily business (by cyclists, farmers, taxi drivers or whatever) is bound to get people's backs up regardless of the intention of their protest. This is just a fact, rather than a reflection on the merits of their aims, and so I think it's an ineffective form of protest, as it alienates other road users.

    That said, something needs to be done about the attitudes of many motorists to cyclists. They're legitimate road users, and probably the most vulnerable in a physical sense, and so other motorists should exercise due care and consideration when they meet them. As anyone who has cycled will know, this is often not the case.

    On the other hand, cyclists need to respect other road users by following the rules of the road. We all see cyclists breaking red lights, cycling on footpaths only to hop down onto the road, not using lights, changing lanes without looking, etc. etc. This kind of thing is just plain dangerous, regardless of the actions of motorists.

    There's abysmal enforcement of all kinds traffic law violations in this country, and this one of the keys to change. Cyclists should be treated as traffic, and with that comes the rights and responsibilities of being traffic. That means proper lighting, proper lane discipline, and obeying the rules of the road. This should apply to both cyclists and motor vehicles, and should be seen to be enforced.

    Secondly, towns in particular should be more cycle friendly. I used to cycle to work in Ennis, as it made more sense than driving the short distance - but I had to give up as the place is just too dangerous to cycle in. Drivers here just aren't used to cyclists, and the roads aren't set up for them (narrow lanes, pot holes and sunked drains, etc)

    Thirdly, there should be some kind of formal cyclist education system. Maybe not a full licence system, but it seems mad that you can just put someone on a bilke and let them go play with the traffic and not have any kind of standard of education in safety and road rules.


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    #6
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    I experienced these idiots when I lived in San Francisco.

    They caused untold chaos, strategically blocking off ramps at the Bay Bridge - used by 260,000 cars daily - resulting in traffic gridlock.

    I also witnessed a cyclist kick and dent the door of a car, and when the driver got out he was assaulted. Another cyclist then threw a newspaper vending machine out across the road at the car driver.

    The idea of Critical Mass to highlight road issues sounds good in theory. The reality was that public support turned completely against them.


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    #7
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    I meet alot of semi-pro cyclists around my area(rural)..(they wear all the gear and spend hundreds on state of the art bikes) and although i know they are training or whatever,its hard to not feel annoyed when they go two-a-breast.
    Ive ran on alot of these roads and i know they do it to avoid the horrible potholes but there must be an alternate.Better cycle lanes?


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    #8
    Beta Ray Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,562 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I think the cyclist problem is quite serious in Ireland, more and more people are choosing to cycle to work.

    Personally I am impartial to cyclists
    Every time I see them they are either braking red lights, On the footpath, not watching where they are going. etc etc

    As far as I am concerned cyclists should be treated as motorists. If they are using the road they should have to pay for some sort of insurance, have a license to cycle a bike, and have the penalty points system applied to them too. They should also be made wear a High Vis Jacket and approved helmet. they should be allowed in the cycle lane only

    I know it sounds stupid but its the only with to deal with this issue!


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    #9
    cascade35
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭cascade35


    grahambo wrote: »
    As far as I am concerned cyclists should be treated as motorists. If they are using the road they should have to pay for some sort of insurance, have a license to cycle a bike, and have the penalty points system applied to them too. They should also be made wear a High Vis Jacket and approved helmet. they should be allowed in the cycle lane only

    I know it sounds stupid but its the only with to deal with this issue!

    If only this could become law!


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    #10
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    DangerMouse27 wrote: »
    I meet alot of semi-pro cyclists around my area(rural)..(they wear all the gear and spend hundreds on state of the art bikes) and although i know they are training or whatever,its hard to not feel annoyed when they go two-a-breast.
    Ive ran on alot of these roads and i know they do it to avoid the horrible potholes but there must be an alternate.Better cycle lanes?
    Two abreast is perfectly legal and explicitly mentioned as such in the legislation, it is frustrating that many motorists don't seem to realise this. Cycling is a social activity and this formation allows you to talk to the rider beside you. It also promotes visibility, is an efficient formation aerodynamically and in many cases with a sufficiently wide road is actually easier to overtake- a motorist needing to cross the centre line anyway will take twice as long to pass a substantial group of riders riding in single file.

    On any group ride I have been on every effort is made to enable following cars to pass when safe to do so. This includes going single file where appropriate, the front rider in the bunch signalling to the car if he has a better view of the road being clear on the other side etc. 99% of the time motorists are courteous and appreciate this, we often get a flash of the hazards or a toot, etc.

    Cycle lanes are not suitable for any form of serious riding and the Government's recent National Cycling Framework explicitly recognises this.

    Critical Mass to me seems to be more about deliberately impeding motorists and insofar as it does this I think it is counterproductive and merely serves to portray cyclists as the "other" and "****."

    Basic respect in both directions is really all that is required and we will all be able to share the road fine.


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    #11
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    grahambo wrote: »
    I think the cyclist problem is quite serious in Ireland, more and more people are choosing to cycle to work.
    I really can't get over the phrasing of this. Have you ever considered that every person choosing to cycle to work rather than drive is taking a car off the road and reducing congestion for those who do still drive! Unless you think road congestion is a non-problem you should be happy more people are choosing to cycle to work.


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    #12
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    cascade35 wrote: »
    If only this could become law!
    It is the law and has been for over a decade. It is not generally enforced, perhaps because cycle tracks are often highly dangerous and thoroughly unusable. This is recognised by the Government so you will be pleased to know the law is being reversed this year and use of cycle tracks will no longer be mandatory.

    Cycling on footpaths and breaking red lights is illegal and cyclists will occasionally be done for this. Driving/parking in mandatory cycle lanes is also illegal BTW and is at least as common and prosecuted probably as often.

    @grahambo- I don't quite get how you can complain about cycling on footpaths and then say that cyclists should be forced to use any cycle lane- many of which are simply footpaths with a sign slapped on them. The magic sign doesn't make cycling there any safer, for cyclists or pedestrians.


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    #13
    laracianna
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭laracianna


    -Critical Mass to me seems to be more about deliberately impeding motorists and insofar as it does this I think it is counterproductive and merely serves to portray cyclists as the "other" and "****." -



    The Dublin Critical Mass was restarted on the last Friday in September this year and there was a second one last Friday. It's about many different things for the different cyclists participating (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94578), but one thing it's certainly not about is deliberately impeding motorists.


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    #14
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    grahambo wrote: »
    Every time I see them they are either braking red lights, On the footpath, not watching where they are going. etc etc
    There's a general problem of law-observance. Motorists park on footpaths, break amber and red lights and ignore speed limits. 'Ninja' cyclists in black with no lights don't make a good impression either

    'Critical Mass' will not solve this problem, it's anarchic and just reinforces sterotypes of cyclists as anti-establishment, nutty Greens. Clarkson-loving motorists will never be awayed by them.

    What's needed is for everyone to be more law-abiding and to make bravura and ignorant behaviour on the road as cool as smoking in a maternity ward or picking your nose while making a sandwich for someone. When 'Clarkson/Top Gear' gets cancelled, we'll know we're headed in the right direction.


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    #15
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    laracianna wrote: »
    The Dublin Critical Mass was restarted on the last Friday in September this year and there was a second one last Friday. It's about many different things for the different cyclists participating (http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94578), but one thing it's certainly not about is deliberately impeding motorists.
    In the article you posted the cyclists seem to be pretty much all over the road, which would impede motorists, no? You are meant to keep to the left and cycle no more than two abreast except if overtaking.

    critical_mass_dublin_2.jpgcritical_mass_dublin_3.jpg


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    #16
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    blorg wrote: »
    In the article you posted the cyclists seem to be pretty much all over the road, which would impede motorists, no? You are meant to keep to the left and cycle no more than two abreast except if overtaking.
    To be fair, they don't seem to be taking up any more space than the equivalent number of motorists. And every day, roads are blocked by motorists in mostly empty cars. It's a really stupid how much space is wasted.

    But, like you,I'm not convinced about the effectiveness of deliberately antagonising car-drivers.


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    #17
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    They would be going slower than said motorists though which would impede their progress. Road space isn't really the issue. I don't really see any need for the cyclists to be spread all over the road unless it is to make some sort of point so I can only take it that they are "deliberately impeding motorists" to make a point.


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    #18
    Saab Ed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    blorg wrote: »
    critical_mass_dublin_3.jpg

    Thats the first time I've ever seen a Canadian protesting about something....Super :D


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    #19
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    blorg wrote: »
    Road space isn't really the issue.
    It is in Amiens Street.
    blorg wrote: »
    I don't really see any need for the cyclists to be spread all over the road
    Or for one car driver to occupy the same amount of road space as a Zoe apartment.

    The CM folk need to find a more humourous way to get their point across. Fake speed cameras, amber-light cameras, official-looking tickets for footpath parking. Maybe dress up like cycling Gardai...


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    #20
    Thinkingaboutit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    -Chris- wrote: »
    I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Critical Mass cycling movement. Basically it's where a large group of cyclists meet up and then cycle through town en masse. It's designed to draw attention to cyclist issues (cycle lanes, in-town speed limits etc.).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mass


    There are a few Critical Mass rides in Ireland, although they've been sporadic of late:
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94578



    I've been following this thread on the cycling forum where the whole concept has been discussed (and quite often dismissed).
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62807845


    One poster suggested jokingly that they get the Motors heads involved. I don't think that's a bad idea, but rather than wade in over there, I'd like to see some opinions here.


    So, as motorists or motoring enthusiasts etc, what do you think of the concept?

    -Have you ever witnessed/been caught up in one of these?
    -Do you cycle? Would you participate in one of these?
    -Do you see merit in the idea?
    -How do "cyclists' rights" fit in with your everyday motoring activites/attitudes?
    -If you were involved in cycling activism, what would you think the most important issue is?


    Every year cyclists get caught under trucks and are killed or get forced off the roads by cars passing too close.
    Some cyclists break red lights and cycle the wrong way up one-way streets.

    With the Dublin Bike scheme, there will be an increase in "casual" cyclists in Dublin, what can cyclists campaign for that will keep these guys safe?

    I will echo some others and say this will only enrage more than a few motorists. Given that some people really get annoyed being delayed as I take a left and then a right on a pushbike, near where I live, this sort of protest will make a few go gaga. I really wish more cyclists would put lights on their bikes or least wear reflective gear at night.


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    #21
    Donnelly117
    Registered Users Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Donnelly117


    they don't pay road tax so they shouldn't be allowed on the road


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    #22
    SleepDoc
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭SleepDoc


    Donnelly117 wrote: »
    they don't pay road tax so they shouldn't be allowed on the road

    You don't pay road tax either.


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    #23
    Boots2006
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Boots2006


    Johnny Utah wrote: »
    Most cyclists break red lights

    Here's a good reason why they should!
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1695668.ece


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    #24
    P.C.
    Registered Users Posts: 2,782 ✭✭✭P.C.


    Boots2006 wrote: »
    Here's a good reason why they should!
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1695668.ece

    Do cyclists who go through red lights see me coming?

    There was one who did not - if I had hit him/her would I have been to blame?


    As far as the critical mass thing is concerned, I feel it is a bad idea as others have pointed out.

    A bike awairness campaign would be a better idea.


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    #25
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    P.C. wrote: »
    Do cyclists who go through red lights see me coming?
    There was one who did not - if I had hit him/her would I have been to blame?
    It's a myth that motorists are automatically to blame if they hit a cyclist or pedestrian. What causes confusion is that we motorists underestimate our duty of care. Simply having priority at a green light is not enough. Luckily, you knew this.

    A bike awareness campaign would help but would probably be ignored by those motorists who consider themselves to be 'advanced' drivers.


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    #26
    bladebrew
    Registered Users Posts: 1,673 ✭✭✭bladebrew


    i have no problem with cyclists as long as there not causing mayhem,the problem as mentioned is like a bad motorist but worse,a bad cyclist!!, i have seen people dressed in black cycling into oncoming traffic,old men on ancient bikes struggling up tiny hills,holding up cars, and the worst of all on rte news on the lauch day of the bike scheme in dublin,after they pointed out how important it was to wear a helmet,,then showed a woman smiling then cycling off with no helmet through a red light:eek:

    if they want to be on the road,obey the rules of the road!


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    #27
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    bladebrew wrote: »
    if they want to be on the road,obey the rules of the road!
    That should apply to everyone.


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    #28
    TimAllen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭TimAllen


    blorg wrote: »
    Two abreast is perfectly legal and explicitly mentioned as such in the legislation, it is frustrating that many motorists don't seem to realise this.
    This goes a long way to explain the a la carte interpretation of the rules of the road that cyclists, in my opinion, are far too fond of.
    The Rules of the Road CLEARLY state that cyclists must cycle in single file as follows:
    page 161 Rules of the Road
    "Do cycle in single file if cycling
    beside another person would
    endanger, inconvenience or block
    other traffic or pedestrians."

    AND
    page 161 Rules of the Road
    "Do cycle in single file in heavy
    traffic."

    Instead, cyclists seek full enforcement of the rules for other road users while ignoring "inconvenient" rules for themselves.

    A classic situation, which I have encountered a few times is a situation where a cyclist "takes the lane" and holds up traffic , eventually motorists get past the cyclist and get to a red light - cyclist comes up and breaks the red light and "takes the lane" again meaning that the motorists get the privilege of trying to overtake the cyclist twice!
    Cyclists then scream blue murder about motorists overtaking dangerously etc!

    But the hum dinger is when cyclists give out about their vulnerability vis-a-vis motorists, the general behaviour of cyclists towards pedestrians is frightening as anyone crossing a pedestrian crossing in the city centre can testify!


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    #29
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Can I remind everyone that this is a thread about whether cyclist activism is likely to change the behavior or viewpoint of motorists, whether protests like Critical Mass are a help or a hinderance to the cyclists' cause.

    This is not a thread to debate rules of the road (unless it specifically relates to the operation of an event like Critical Mass) and I hope it's not a thread that will degenerate into "us vs them", motorist vs cyclist bitching.

    If it starts to go that way, we'll lock the thread.


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    #30
    TimAllen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭TimAllen


    -Chris- wrote: »
    Can I remind everyone that this is a thread about whether cyclist activism is likely to change the behavior or viewpoint of motorists, whether protests like Critical Mass are a help or a hinderance to the cyclists' cause.

    This is not a thread to debate rules of the road (unless it specifically relates to the operation of an event like Critical Mass) and I hope it's not a thread that will degenerate into "us vs them", motorist vs cyclist bitching.

    If it starts to go that way, we'll lock the thread.
    Just to clarify Chris, my post, outlining the rules of the road specifically relates to a Critical Mass event in that, to obey these rules, by definition, means that a CM event, as they currently operate, would not take place


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    #31
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    That's fine Tim, it just felt like the start of what would turn into a "yes it is", "no it isn't" circular argument.

    I have no issue with you quoting rules of the road in support of the fact that cyclists should not travel more than single file.

    I'm more trying to keep the thread concentrated on whether this kind of protest is effective and whether the goals of such a protest are supported/recognised by the motoring public, rather than whether cyclists should be one or two abreast.



    I'm a cyclist as well as a motorist, I believe cyclists in general need more training, and need more deference/respect on the road.
    I have seen, however, the ill-will engendered by the protests undertaken by the taxi drivers and farmers over the last few years.

    This is the aspect that I'm trying to explore.


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