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Experimental drops conversion.

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  • 27-11-2009 1:38pm
    #1
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭


    So... Having acquired a pair of ITM Europa2 bars and a set of Tiagra shifters for a reasonable price courtesy of Mr. Skeffington and cosman9373 (thank you gentlemen), I have done a drops conversion on my Giant FCR3. (Photos may follow if I get around to it...)

    Quite a difference. I've kept the aerobars on so I'm using them as before. On the hoods is very different to on the straight bars. I don't feel I have as much braking effort available to me. I'm also finding it quite hard on the thumb joints leaning on the hoods. Perhaps I need to adjust their position on the bars. I have them in approximately the position shown in Peleus's "Stolen Saracen" post. Yeah, I know I need to improve my core strength so I'm not leaning so hard...

    So, bar tape. I got some Cinelli gel backed cork ribbon from CRC and have to apply it. ISTR in the past that I would just wrap the tape in some esoteric way around the shifters but this tape comes with short lengths for behind the shifters. I was going to unbolt them from their clamps, wrap the tape and refit the shifters. Is that a reasonable thing to do?

    Also, is there any reason why I shouldn't start wrapping from the stem and just tuck the tail in behind the plugs? I'm not fond of the finishing tape idea.

    The only other thing I'm coming up against is the cable adjustment for the front mech is on the old flat-bar shifters rather than on the derailleur itself. The tiagra shifters have no adjustment so all I can do is adjust with the clamp bolt. I nearly have it but I'm wondering is there an inline adjuster that I could put on the cable outer?

    Of course I'll prolly decide it's not for me in a while and go back to the flat bars...


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    #2
    abcdggs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭abcdggs


    Park tools how to. this is what i used first time i did mine


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    #3
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    So, bar tape. I got some Cinelli gel backed cork ribbon from CRC and have to apply it. ISTR in the past that I would just wrap the tape in some esoteric way around the shifters but this tape comes with short lengths for behind the shifters. I was going to unbolt them from their clamps, wrap the tape and refit the shifters. Is that a reasonable thing to do?
    No, don't do this, you wrap the tape with the shifters clamped in place. You can either do the fancy wrap or, much easier, just use the two short lengths behind the shifters (these go over the clamp, with the ends pointing forward) and then wrap over that. abcdggs's link should show how to do it.

    As to whether you can wrap from the top, I don't know, maybe, but NO-ONE EVER DOES THIS. So good luck with that if you try :) I reckon you would probably need the finishing tape anyway; if you didn't have it it would just look messy even if it did stay tight. Might have issues with the tape being more likely to unravel from your natural hand pressure too.

    Regarding the front derailleur, yes, you can get inline adjusters and all road bikes are fitted with them. They go on the frame at the top of the downtube.


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    #4
    longford76
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭longford76


    cdaly, will you please post pics? Before and after if possible.

    Debating doing the same conversion to drops myself and looking for inspiration for risking a perfectly operating flat bar bike to drop bars.

    Thanks


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    #5
    ten speed racer
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭ten speed racer


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    So, bar tape. I got some Cinelli gel backed cork ribbon from CRC and have to apply it. ISTR in the past that I would just wrap the tape in some esoteric way around the shifters but this tape comes with short lengths for behind the shifters. I was going to unbolt them from their clamps, wrap the tape and refit the shifters. Is that a reasonable thing to do?

    Also, is there any reason why I shouldn't start wrapping from the stem and just tuck the tail in behind the plugs? I'm not fond of the finishing tape idea.


    As blorg said, there's no need to remove the shifters. Just pull back the hoods before wrapping the bars.

    Also, don't start at the stem and wrap that way--the tape won't last as long as your hands will constantly be rubbing against the open side of the tape, if you know what I mean.


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    #6
    TinyExplosions
    Registered Users Posts: 6,860 ✭✭✭TinyExplosions


    blorg wrote: »
    As to whether you can wrap from the top, I don't know, maybe, but NO-ONE EVER DOES THIS. So good luck with that if you try :)

    I quite often do, and it's not caused me any problems so far


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    #7
    Raam
    Registered Users Posts: 14,317 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    One bit of advice: don't wrap the bars until you are happy with the shifter position. Ride it for a few days so that you can work out your favoured position.


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    #8
    lescol
    Registered Users Posts: 648 ✭✭✭lescol


    Try watching this for top-down taping. This method was used for many years!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx6gPC1LygM


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    #9
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    the open side of the tape
    The stem end of the tape starts off with the end of the tape under another layer so, once the wrapping tension is right, it should remain stable. OTOH, wrapping from the bar ends means that the stem end of the tape is on top and would be vulnerable to rubbing off which is why the finishing tape is required.

    @Raam, I've been riding the last two days without tape and (as I mentioned) I'm finding it hard on the thumb joints. Is there anywhere I can look up suggested positions?...

    @longford76, If I can find the camera, I already have pics of the flat-bar setup. Similarly, if I can find the camera, I might be able to do pics of the drops. Bear in mind I have aerobars fitted too and use them about 80% of the time.


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    #10
    Raam
    Registered Users Posts: 14,317 ✭✭✭✭Raam


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    @Raam, I've been riding the last two days without tape and (as I mentioned) I'm finding it hard on the thumb joints. Is there anywhere I can look up suggested positions?...

    It might be worth taking a few pictures of your bar shifter/position and posting them up here.


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    #11
    ten speed racer
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭ten speed racer


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    The stem end of the tape starts off with the end of the tape under another layer so, once the wrapping tension is right, it should remain stable. OTOH, wrapping from the bar ends means that the stem end of the tape is on top and would be vulnerable to rubbing off which is why the finishing tape is required.

    I was thinking I wasn't very clear about what I meant. I didn't mean the end of the tape when I said the open side.

    If you start at the end of the bar, as you wrap the tape around, you constantly overlay the side of the tape closer to the stem. When you hands are on the bars, particularly just above the hoods, the tendency is to rub against the tape on the side that hasn't been overlaid with the next turn of tape. On the other hand, if you start from the stem, the side of the tape further away from the stem is being overlaid by the next turn of the tape. Therefore, the pressure of your hands tends to lift the tape.

    This concept is surprizingly difficult to explain but would be easy to demonstrate.

    That being said, if wrap the bars well, the tape should last a reasonblly long time no matter what side you wrap from. But it should last longer if you wrap from the end of the bars. If you change your tape regularly anyway, it doesn't matter at all.


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    #12
    Charlie Stick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46 ✭Charlie Stick


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    Of course I'll prolly decide it's not for me in a while and go back to the flat bars...
    I love my FCR3 but the width of the bars does present problems for the commute. While my dropped-bar brethren filter Exocet-like, I end up slaloming between wing mirrors.

    Seriously considering getting a 44cm stoker/aero base bar and keeping the flat STI brake set up.

    Would love to see pics of the conversion though.


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    #13
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Here's before and after from above (note the auxiliary brake levers on the aerobars for commuting...):
    bike_flat_front_small.jpg
    bike_drop_front_small.jpg

    And from the side (note I haven't wrapped the bars yet):
    bike_flat_side_small.jpg
    bike_drop_side_small_label.jpg

    @Raam, see the last pic above for shifter position. Any improvement to be had on that? I reckon I have the aerobars sloping a bit up at the mo. I'll prolly lower them in the next while.

    Here's the whole bike.
    bike_drop_side_all_small.jpg

    Note the spoke magnets for the reelight.com induction lights...


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    #14
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    I think the STI levers should be further forward on your bars- generally you put the top of the hood parallel so it is just flat rather than rising upwards and the brake lever itself should be perpendicular to the ground.

    You may also want to consider your stem angle, generally pointed down with the bars a good few cm below the saddle is normal on a road bike- but how well this works will be related to your flexibility etc. If you want to balance the weight though and get aero your bars need to drop a fair bit.

    The angle of the bar ends also looks a bit extreme to my eyes, I prefer the bottom bit of the drops closer to parallel with the ground, but this is a personal thing. Just bear in mind that getting the brake levers forward into a better position can be achieved with a combination of moving the clamps or rotating the bars forward.


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    #15
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    I suspect not wrapping the bars makes it a bit harder to assess. However, I've labelled the pic for reference...

    So, in the drops is it usual to hold area 'A' or 'B'? B has access to the brakes, A doesn't.

    If I rotate the bars to bring A closer to horizontal, D slopes more pushing my hands onto the hoods which will also be closer to horizontal. You can see further up how the aerobar cups don't give much room to ride on the tops so I would tend to ride on the bends at D instead with fingers on the outside of the bend.

    When you say 'balance the weight', I would have thought lower bars would put more weight on my wrists/hands and this is already a problem for me. Is this not the case? Also, I have to bear in mind that this is my commuter bike so manouverability is vital. I already feel I have lost some moving to drops (thought this may be about getting familiar as I've had only two days on them yet).

    I can do some of the rotation by lowering the stem though I'm unsure of that if it increases the weight on the bars. Tis the quickest option for a test tho...

    Shifters down 5-10mm and rotate the bars forward? Lower the stem as well? Then head over to the chiropractor for my back?... ;)


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    #16
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    To a certain extent if you want to get the most out of drops you will need to work on your flexibility. Weight should be balanced between saddle pedals and bars, you should not be so much "sitting" on the saddle.

    C is never used. Never.

    A is rarely used as it is no more aero than B (as you are further forward and down in B) and as you say you don't have brakes or gears.

    B, with brake and gear access, is the most common position in the drops.

    Most common position on the hoods is forward of D in your diagram, you are actually on the brake hood itself, not the bars. You can use D as well but don't have as good access to the levers.

    Worth bearing in mind that the drops do shift you forward somewhat so if you feel excessively stretched compared to your old straight bars you may want to shorten your stem. I did a similar conversion some years ago and needed to take 20mm off the stem to be comfortable (I went from 130mm to 110mm.)


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    #17
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,042 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Rules of thumb...

    Point the flat bit at the end of your drops at the midpoint of your seat stays.

    Get the section of tops running into the hoods horizontal, using offcuts of tape underneath if you need to pad out any uneven bits.

    Focus on getting natural wrist angle.

    I disagree with Raam that you need to ride around without tape for days. Sitting on the bike for a couple of minutes should be enough, if you are sensitive to the feedback from your body.

    And above all, don't go screwing around with handlebar height because someone on the internet told you to ;). Those sort of changes can take a while to adjust to, and whilst lower bars may feel fine for the first couple of rides, you may find yourself at the physio a few weeks later.

    Comfort, comfort, comfort.


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    #18
    blorg
    Registered Users Posts: 15,989 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    Lumen wrote: »
    And above all, don't go screwing around with handlebar height because someone on the internet told you to ;). Those sort of changes can take a while to adjust to, and whilst lower bars may feel fine for the first couple of rides, you may find yourself at the physio a few weeks later.
    Yes I'd concur with that, probably a bit irresponsible of me to suggest you drop them right now. Longer term you might want to look at it and generally do it gradually as you find you are up to it.

    You may need to bring the bars closer though by getting a shorter stem- the "default" riding position for most riders on drops, especially beginners, is on the hoods, and obviously this is substantially further forward than your old position on the flat bars. You don't necessarily need to bring it all the way back but I found 20mm adjustment to be pretty essential. I get the impression that at the moment you are not putting your hoods in the right position as you feel that would be too far away. Better put them right and bring the whole bar closer with a shorter stem.


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    #19
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,042 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    cdaly,

    FWIW, one way of reducing the stress on your upper body is to move the saddle backwards. You also have to drop the saddle height a little to maintain your leg bend (because you're moving away from the pedals).

    I used this position successfully a lot last year on my Focus Cayo using a short stem (90mm) to bring the reach back. In theory you lose a little power, but if you have any discomfort issues then you're not going to be able to use a lot of your power anyway.

    I'm not suggesting this will be right for you, just throwing in ideas.

    What length stem are you using right now?


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    #20
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    Lumen wrote:
    because someone on the internet told you to
    But I'm only doing all this 'cos you guys told me to! I would have gone on quite happily on my flat bars... grumble. mutter... ;)


    @blorg, My placement of the hoods was initially by eye. I have since moved them down a bit and rotated the bars. Went out for a quick spin halfway up Howth and back and all seemed reasonable enough. Mind you, on the descent I felt more stable on the aerobars than on the drops (prolly more acclimatisation to do).

    @Lumen, Current stem is 110mm centre to centre. It's an adjustable so I can probably shorten the reach by dropping it a few spacers on the steerer and tilting it upwards.

    I had a look in the mirror just now and, on the aerobars my elbows are at about 100-110 degrees rather than the recommended 90 degrees. However, my upper body is at about 50 degrees to the vertical which is somewhat steeper than it might be. I have about +-10mm of saddle movement available.

    So, I think I have the hoods properly placed at this point so I'll tape up the bars, ride it for a week or so and see how it goes...

    Thanks for the advice.


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    #21
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,042 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    I had a look in the mirror just now and, on the aerobars my elbows are at about 100-110 degrees rather than the recommended 90 degrees.

    I think you misunderstand.

    There are two 90 (ish) degree angles to aim for on aerobars. The first is your hip/torso, the second your upper back/upper arm.

    Your elbow will only be at around 90 degrees if you have a horizontal back, which you don't.

    See here.

    combo_rider3_smaller.jpg


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    #22
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    upper back/upper arm
    Ah, that looks better then..
    which you don't.
    Indeed. Would that I had the a figure like that pic...

    Reading the link now. Thanks...


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