Trucks Parking in the cycle lane in Santry

djbproductions · 02-03-2010 7:27pm #1

Are any other cyclist cycling through Santry annoyed by the trucks parking in the bus/cycle lane opposite Omni Shopping Center? I have reported this numerous times to the Garda and the management but no joy. Look at the latest .. see attachment, DSC00193.JPG(3 trucks) blatent illegal parking. Maybe if other cyclists reported this something would be done?

Doctor Bob · 02-03-2010 8:04pm

According to the sign, parking isn't illegal between 10 am and midday, Mon - Sat (and presumably all day Sunday). When is the parking happening?

Superquinn in Ranelagh was similar (maybe still is- not my neighbourhood any more)- a large lorry would park in the cycle lane around 6/6.30 pm most evenings to make its deliveries. SQ even had a traffic cone inside the door for the purpose. :rolleyes:

blorg · 02-03-2010 8:07pm

First guy has his park-anywhere lights on in fairness.

blorg · 02-03-2010 8:09pm

Doctor Bob wrote: »

According to the sign, parking isn't illegal between 10 am and midday, Mon - Sat (and presumably all day Sunday). When is the parking happening?

A cursory analysis of light levels, vehicle lighting and the position of the sun extrapolated from shadows suggests... shortly before 8am this morning.

CramCycle · 02-03-2010 8:19pm

What about that bike in the picture blocking Wheelchair users? surely worse than the trucks as there seems to be little or no traffic at this time. Also to 'blorg', I agree about the "I'm only here for a minute lights", I think the first truck has them going on as well. Does it happen at times when there is heavy traffic on the road and is it full time parking or literally as the lights suggest, for just a few minutes?

02-03-2010 8:25pm

blorg wrote: »

A cursory analysis of light levels, vehicle lighting and the position of the sun extrapolated from shadows suggests... shortly before 8am this morning.

Doctor Bob · 02-03-2010 8:26pm

blorg wrote: »

First guy has his park-anywhere lights on in fairness.

blorg wrote: »

A cursory analysis of light levels, vehicle lighting and the position of the sun extrapolated from shadows suggests... shortly before 8am this morning.

Faultless logic, on both counts!

Andrew33 · 02-03-2010 8:28pm

djbproductions wrote: »

Are any other cyclist cycling through Santry annoyed by the trucks parking in the bus/cycle lane opposite Omni Shopping Center? I have reported this numerous times to the Garda and the management but no joy. Look at the latest .. see attachment, DSC00193.JPG(3 trucks) blatent illegal parking. Maybe if other cyclists reported this something would be done?

Awwwww! pity about ya, cyclists are a pious bunch of sh1theads who don't obey the rules of the road but expect everyone else to be perfect.
You've no idea how much pressure the drivers of those vehicles are under.

djbproductions · 02-03-2010 8:31pm

Very good .. its my bike parked for a few seconds while I take the foto, didnt even notice that myself! This was taken at around 7.45am so the trucks shouldnt be parked there. Is does look like there is very little traffic, thats because when I stopped to take the picture the traffic lights just changed to red so stopped the main flow of traffic. I dont mind having to go around the trucks, but on some mornings I have to wait for the traffic flow to lesson before I can over-take. It is slightly dangerous as sometimes when I go to over-take, some cars behind me do the same with little or no space. That guy only started to reverse when he saw me taking the foto. At the end of the day, no matter how we have to go around this obstruction, according to the rules of the road, they shouldnt be there.

Do any other cyclist use this route and feel that illegally parked cars\vans etc are a pain?

CramCycle wrote: »

What about that bike in the picture blocking Wheelchair users? surely worse than the trucks as there seems to be little or no traffic at this time. Also to 'blorg', I agree about the "I'm only here for a minute lights", I think the first truck has them going on as well. Does it happen at times when there is heavy traffic on the road and is it full time parking or literally as the lights suggest, for just a few minutes?

CramCycle · 02-03-2010 8:32pm

Andrew33 wrote: »

cyclists are a pious bunch of sh1theads who don't obey the rules of the road but expect everyone else to be perfect.
You've no idea how much pressure the drivers of those vehicles are under.

So what your saying is that in your opinion there is absolutely no difference between cyclists and motorised vehicle drivers, in both their attitude and adherence to the law?

Also good use of the word pious you idiot

djbproductions · 02-03-2010 8:37pm

Hiya Andrew ... I gather from your use of language that you dont like cyclists? I have the utmost respect for all drivers and always follow the rules of the road (stopping for red lights etc). I dont paint all drivers with the same brush so hope you dont do the same with cyclists. I admit that I also see cyclist break the law at times and wish they wouldnt.

Goodluck.

Andrew33 wrote: »

Awwwww! pity about ya, cyclists are a pious bunch of sh1theads who don't obey the rules of the road but expect everyone else to be perfect.
You've no idea how much pressure the drivers of those vehicles are under.

uberwolf · 02-03-2010 8:47pm

Andrew33 wrote: »

Awwwww! pity about ya, cyclists are a pious bunch of sh1theads who don't obey the rules of the road but expect everyone else to be perfect.
You've no idea how much pressure the drivers of those vehicles are under.

uh huh, yeah, okay, I see what you're saying.

Post like that again and you're banned.

folks - if you're under pressure the rules of the road don't apply.

CramCycle wrote:

Also good use of the word pious you idiot

try not to feed the trolls.

CramCycle · 02-03-2010 8:49pm

uberwolf wrote: »

try not to feed the trolls.

sorry about that, to everyone reading, I realised I was pry in trouble as soon as I said it, knee jerk reaction, won't happen again

IM0 · 02-03-2010 8:52pm

blorg wrote: »

First guy has his park-anywhere lights on in fairness.

what about the other ejit parking in the middle of the road in the car!

IM0 · 02-03-2010 8:54pm

Andrew33 wrote: »

Awwwww! pity about ya, cyclists are a pious bunch of sh1theads who don't obey the rules of the road but expect everyone else to be perfect.
You've no idea how much pressure the drivers of those vehicles are under.

this thread wasn't born in here was it :rolleyes:

72hundred · 02-03-2010 9:11pm

Andrew33 wrote: »

Awwwww! pity about ya, cyclists are a pious bunch of sh1theads who don't obey the rules of the road but expect everyone else to be perfect.
You've no idea how much pressure the drivers of those vehicles are under.

What was the name of that guy who used to come on the cycling forum ages ago and troll... was it Pat or something? And is this the same guy!

daymobrew · 03-03-2010 9:33am

72hundred wrote: »

And is this the same guy!

No.

markpb · 03-03-2010 10:01am

djbproductions wrote: »

Are any other cyclist cycling through Santry annoyed by the trucks parking in the bus/cycle lane opposite Omni Shopping Center? I have reported this numerous times to the Garda and the management but no joy. Look at the latest .. see attachment, DSC00193.JPG(3 trucks) blatent illegal parking. Maybe if other cyclists reported this something would be done?

I've noticed it a lot of mornings too. I think they park there while they wait for someone to open the delivery area at the rear of Omni. There's a sliding gate that blocks the entrance - I think if they tried to make the turn before it opens, they'd be sticking out onto the road. I'm only guessing though.

They're also parked in the bus stop too which must be fun for DB drivers.

serendip · 03-03-2010 10:27am

Dónal wrote: »

A cursory analysis of the light and shadows suggests this was taken in about 1986.

djbproductions · 03-03-2010 11:36am

markpb wrote: »

I've noticed it a lot of mornings too. I think they park there while they wait for someone to open the delivery area at the rear of Omni. There's a sliding gate that blocks the entrance - I think if they tried to make the turn before it opens, they'd be sticking out onto the road. I'm only guessing though.

They're also parked in the bus stop too which must be fun for DB drivers.

Hiya .. yeh they are not allowed into the parking bay for unloading until after 8am (so they wont disturb the neighbours) but they are supposed to use the main carpark as a holding area until the gates open at 8am. I am suprised DB havent reported this?

Recieved a reply from ballymun_ds@Garda.ie as follows:

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your correspondence regarding this issue of trucks parking in the bus lane on the Swords Road.
I have made Inspector Harley of our Traffic Corps aware of your concerns and can assure you that the matter will receive attention in early course.

Lets hope they do something about it?

Jip · 03-03-2010 12:01pm

It's nothing compared to the cycle lane through Stoneybatter that comes into effect at 4pm, it's completely ignored all of the time, people use it to park their cars, all illegally, to go into the various shops.

Only by the fact that I only drive through there, my cycle route takes me elsewhere, I'd be saying it to the various gardai you see in that village completely oblivious to the fact.

CramCycle · 03-03-2010 12:45pm

Jip wrote: »

It's nothing compared to the cycle lane through Stoneybatter that comes into effect at 4pm, it's completely ignored all of the time, people use it to park their cars, all illegally, to go into the various shops.

Only by the fact that I only drive through there, my cycle route takes me elsewhere, I'd be saying it to the various gardai you see in that village completely oblivious to the fact.

On another post, about contra flow lanes, Blorg said

"Cars are meant to stay out of them when possible, not park in the unless there is no other option, and not longer than 30 minutes if they are the only option, etc."

So, if he's right, then unless there is other options they maybe entitled to do so. I don't know Stoneybatter well at all. If there are spaces available then they are in the wrong, but if there isn't, then it's another example of painting cycle lanes to make it look like the council statistically cares.

blorg · 03-03-2010 12:52pm

CramCycle wrote: »

On another post, about contra flow lanes, Blorg said

"Cars are meant to stay out of them when possible, not park in the unless there is no other option, and not longer than 30 minutes if they are the only option, etc."

So, if he's right, then unless there is other options they maybe entitled to do so. I don't know Stoneybatter well at all. If there are spaces available then they are in the wrong, but if there isn't, then it's another example of painting cycle lanes to make it look like the council statistically cares.

That was in reference to cycle tracks with a dashed line only which cars are allowed in albeit with some restrictions. It doesn't apply to bus lanes (or cycle tracks with a solid line) which cars are not allowed in during their period of operation. The OP's post is about a bus lane.

CramCycle · 03-03-2010 1:11pm

Sorry Blorg but it was about a cycle lane in Stoneybatter, that said it might be one with a solid line, sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the post just before mine (by Jip), not the bus lane in Santry.

Ste.phen · 03-03-2010 1:17pm

markpb wrote: »

I've noticed it a lot of mornings too. I think they park there while they wait for someone to open the delivery area at the rear of Omni. There's a sliding gate that blocks the entrance - I think if they tried to make the turn before it opens, they'd be sticking out onto the road. I'm only guessing though.

They're also parked in the bus stop too which must be fun for DB drivers.

I used to work in the Tesco there.

There's one resident to the rear of tesco that has a court order against the centre preventing them from having trucks unloading before 8am. When deliveries come in overnight, they park the trucks over beside where Homebase was, and unload them via a back lane, but that can't be done when there's customers around so if it's near 8am, they wait outside and come in after 8

There used to be space for trucks to wait just outside the gates (between the petrol station and the offices entrance), but i think they moved the gate further towards the road, hence the bus lane stupidity

blorg · 03-03-2010 2:27pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Sorry Blorg but it was about a cycle lane in Stoneybatter, that said it might be one with a solid line, sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the post just before mine (by Jip), not the bus lane in Santry.

Right, missed that. If it is a solid line they can't park in it (during its hours of operation if they are specified), if it is a dashed white line they can, for up to 30 minutes while loading/unloading.

Having said that cars parking in cycle lanes of whatever variety is not exactly rare, I see it every day in multiple places myself.

Jip · 03-03-2010 2:49pm

CramCycle wrote: »

So, if he's right, then unless there is other options they maybe entitled to do so. I don't know Stoneybatter well at all. If there are spaces available then they are in the wrong, but if there isn't, then it's another example of painting cycle lanes to make it look like the council statistically cares.

I'm confused

The cycle lane is not a cycle lane during the day, it only comes into affect in the evenings and is signposted as being a cycle lane between something like 4pm and 7pm. So regardless of the kind of white line that's there, which I imagine to be dotted although you can never actually see it, I wouldn't expect cars to be allowed to park there for any length of time regardless of the lack of available places elsewhere ? I'm talking about cars in general, not vehicles loading or unloading.

Is that part of the conditions, that you can park in it for up to 30 minutes despite the sign if the line is dotted ? What's the point then as if the line was solid I would have expected no parking or driving whatsoever anyway.

Doctor Bob · 03-03-2010 2:55pm

That's it.

Between 7 pm and 4 pm (i.e. 21 hrs long), parking is permitted.

Between 4 pm and 7 pm (3 hrs), parking is permitted for 30 minutes if the line is dashed (an 'advisory' cycle lane), and not permitted at all if the line is solid (a 'mandatory' cycle lane).

Advisory lanes were intended to be used in exceptional circumstances according to the existing design standards, but most local authorities put them in willy nilly in order to be seen to be doing something for cyclists. It's also worth noting that a 'mandatory' lane must be minimum 1.5 metres, whereas an 'advisory' one can be less. Local authorities often interpreted this to mean 'Pick whichever one will fit', regardless of how many cyclists use that road. The irony of this is that, where space is limited, there's a greater case for putting in better cycle facilities, not sub-standard ones.

Andrew33 · 03-03-2010 3:05pm

To all cyclists who use this site, I was not "trolling" with my last post, it was just an injudicious use of terminology;). I fully understand your frustration at people using cycle lanes for other purposes and being under pressure shouldn't be an excuse. I would like to direct some ire at the idiots in Dept of Transport(I presume) who paint a broad red stripe on the side of the road and declare it a cycle lane. In some instances its daft, in others its downright dangerous to both the cyclists who are meant to use them and motorised traffic who have to avoid them. Anyways, happy and safe cycling to you all.

blorg · 03-03-2010 3:15pm

Well fair dues to you for coming back Andrew. It is the county councils that are responsible for the things.

Jip · 03-03-2010 3:18pm

Doctor Bob wrote: »

T
Between 4 pm and 7 pm (3 hrs), parking is permitted for 30 minutes if the line is dashed (an 'advisory' cycle lane), and not permitted at all if the line is solid (a 'mandatory' cycle lane).

Never realised that, I'll be going that way this evening so I must take note of the line involved if I can. That's utterly pointless though, pure waster of money in painting and signs if there's always going to be parking on it and never actually be used as a cycle lane.

Doctor Bob · 03-03-2010 4:48pm

Where exactly in Stoneybatter is it?

I see from Google Maps that Manor Street northbound has the advisory cycle lane running outside the car parking bays, making parking in the lane pretty unlikely, whereas Prussia Street northbound has no such bays (not to mention a cycle lane that looks to be about 0.75 m. wide in places!). Presumably it's the latter spot?

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.353177,-6.285167&spn=0.003637,0.012317&t=k&z=17

SerialComplaint · 03-03-2010 8:22pm

djbproductions wrote: »

Recieved a reply from ballymun_ds@Garda.ie as follows:

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your correspondence regarding this issue of trucks parking in the bus lane on the Swords Road.
I have made Inspector Harley of our Traffic Corps aware of your concerns and can assure you that the matter will receive attention in early course.

Have you exposed the secret of Garda station email addresses? From http://www.garda.ie/stations/default.aspx

Please note that e-mail facilities are not available at stations for external communication.

Does this convention of name_ds@garda.ie work for all stations?

djbproductions · 03-03-2010 10:17pm

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Have you exposed the secret of Garda station email addresses? From http://www.garda.ie/stations/default.aspx

Does this convention of name_ds@garda.ie work for all stations?

I am not sure about their email addresses as I got the response from this address although I had sent my original email complaint to the traffic division traffic@garda.ie

JMJR · 04-03-2010 7:31am

djbproductions wrote: »

I have made Inspector Harley of our Traffic Corps aware of your concerns

That will be this lad then?

Jip · 04-03-2010 10:37am

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Where exactly in Stoneybatter is it?

I see from Google Maps that Manor Street northbound has the advisory cycle lane running outside the car parking bays, making parking in the lane pretty unlikely, whereas Prussia Street northbound has no such bays (not to mention a cycle lane that looks to be about 0.75 m. wide in places!). Presumably it's the latter spot?

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.353177,-6.285167&spn=0.003637,0.012317&t=k&z=17

At top of Manor Street is fine because as you say the parking bays are on the inside of the cycle lane, its from the junction of Brunswick Street heading northbound where the space is shared and all the shops are, it's only when you get further up to where the houses are do they diverge.

NamelessPhil · 04-03-2010 5:08pm

Jip wrote: »

Never realised that, I'll be going that way this evening so I must take note of the line involved if I can. That's utterly pointless though, pure waster of money in painting and signs if there's always going to be parking on it and never actually be used as a cycle lane.

Actually the information given by Doctor Bob is incorrect. According to the rules of the road :-

"A driver may park in a non-mandatory cycle track for up to 30 minutes, but only if they are loading or unloading their vehicle and there is no alternative parking available. Remember the basic duty of care and do not obstruct a cycle track.

If a driver parks their vehicle in a cycle track that operates for only some of the day (shown on an information plate under the cycle track sign), they must move the vehicle by the time the next operating period starts. (emphasis added)

If there is no information plate, it means the cycle track operates all the time and no parking is allowed."

In the situation that you describe all cars parked in the cycle lane should be removed between 4pm and 7pm. Report it to the clampers.

CramCycle · 04-03-2010 5:22pm

Brilliant, do the clampers pay out finders fees

There are so many people and so little time

blorg · 04-03-2010 5:29pm

NamelessPhil wrote: »

Actually the information given by Doctor Bob is incorrect. According to the rules of the road :-
"A driver may park in a non-mandatory cycle track for up to 30 minutes, but only if they are loading or unloading their vehicle and there is no alternative parking available. Remember the basic duty of care and do not obstruct a cycle track.

If a driver parks their vehicle in a cycle track that operates for only some of the day (shown on an information plate under the cycle track sign), they must move the vehicle by the time the next operating period starts. (emphasis added)

If there is no information plate, it means the cycle track operates all the time and no parking is allowed."
In the situation that you describe all cars parked in the cycle lane should be removed between 4pm and 7pm. Report it to the clampers.

Bob said that cars can park for up to 30 minutes during the operating hours if it is a dashed line, not at all if it is a solid line. That is correct.

Doctor Bob · 04-03-2010 5:39pm

blorg wrote: »

Bob said that cars can park for up to 30 minutes during the operating hours if it is a dashed line, not at all if it is a solid line. That is correct.

Thanks blorg.

@NamelessPhil: To clarify- I was only addressing Jip's query re the lining and signing. blorg had previously mentioned the loading/unloading bit and it wasn't queried, and I thought it was obvious that time-plating would override the 30 minute rule.

BTW, I note you didn't pull me up on my use of the word 'advisory' (technically 'non-mandatory' as per your quote).

Anyway, I think the last thing we need at the moment is another thread of Jesuitical hair-splitting!

blorg · 04-03-2010 7:57pm

Doctor Bob wrote: »

I thought it was obvious that time-plating would override the 30 minute rule.

That is not my understanding; if it is time plated the cycle lane only exists AT ALL during the time on the plate. Outside the times there is no lane and drivers can park in it all they like, etc.

The 30 minute-rule applies to cycle tracks during the period specified on the sign- if they are dashed line tracks.

NamelessPhil · 04-03-2010 8:21pm

Once a cycle track is time-plated it becomes a cycle track that must be used by bicycles, therefore it must be kept clear of other vehicles. There can be no parking, loading or unloading of vehicles during the time on the plate. Effectively it becomes a mandatory bicycle lane and as the Rules of the Road state "No driver may park a vehicle in a mandatory cycle track." Parking also includes loading and unloading

Exactly the same principle applies to time-plated bus lanes. It is permissible to use the bus lane outside the hours of operation but during the time displayed on the time-plate it becomes a bus lane only.

blorg · 04-03-2010 9:10pm

NamelessPhil wrote: »

Once a cycle track is time-plated it becomes a cycle track that must be used by bicycles, therefore it must be kept clear of other vehicles. There can be no parking, loading or unloading of vehicles during the time on the plate. Effectively it becomes a mandatory bicycle lane and as the Rules of the Road state "No driver may park a vehicle in a mandatory cycle track." Parking also includes loading and unloading

Exactly the same principle applies to time-plated bus lanes. It is permissible to use the bus lane outside the hours of operation but during the time displayed on the time-plate it becomes a bus lane only.

That applies to time plated cycle tracks with solid white lines. Not dashed ones.

setanta159 · 04-03-2010 10:42pm

haven't looked through entire thread so apologies if this has otherwise been addressed. Am very familiar with that particular stretch of road (in actual fact had a bike stolen from the Omni entrance just opposite from where pic is taken a few months back) but that photo is the first time I have ever seen any vehicles parked there as it is a notorious spot where a young woman lost control of her car and ploughed into and killed a pedestrain exiting the Omni. It is also on any one's account a most inconvenient place to stop (let alone park) and I would imagine that those vehicles were only there very briefly.

NamelessPhil · 05-03-2010 12:11am

blorg wrote: »

That applies to time plated cycle tracks with solid white lines. Not dashed ones.

Can you back up your assertion that loading is permitted within the operating times of a time-plated cycle track?

blorg · 05-03-2010 8:44am

NamelessPhil wrote: »

Can you back up your assertion that loading is permitted within the operating times of a time-plated cycle track?

Simply that the time plate specifies when the cycle track is operating. Outside those times it simply isn't there and there are no restrictions on use of the road space whatsoever. Same deal with bus lanes.

Certainly there are no restrictions on parking, driving in, etc. a solid white line lane outside its period of operation. No 30 minute limitation, you can park there all day if you like.

This may be academic as I don't actually know if there are any instances of a dashed line track with a limited period of operation, most of them are solid line. But it would stand to reason that if there were such a track, it would follow the rules for a dashed line track during the period of operation and be considered not to be there at all outside that period.

Doctor Bob · 05-03-2010 11:43am

blorg wrote: »

That is not my understanding; if it is time plated the cycle lane only exists AT ALL during the time on the plate. Outside the times there is no lane and drivers can park in it all they like, etc.

The 30 minute-rule applies to cycle tracks during the period specified on the sign- if they are dashed line tracks.

Yep- that's what I was trying to say!

I guess I wasn't clear in my rush out the door yesterday evening.

NamelessPhil wrote: »

Can you back up your assertion that loading is permitted within the operating times of a time-plated cycle track?

The qoute from the RotR you posted above backs up the assertion, specifically this bit: 'A driver may park in a non-mandatory cycle track for up to 30 minutes, but only if they are loading or unloading their vehicle and there is no alternative parking available.'

NamelessPhil wrote: »

Once a cycle track is time-plated it becomes a cycle track that must be used by bicycles, therefore it must be kept clear of other vehicles. There can be no parking, loading or unloading of vehicles during the time on the plate. Effectively it becomes a mandatory bicycle lane and as the Rules of the Road state "No driver may park a vehicle in a mandatory cycle track." Parking also includes loading and unloading

I think you might be confusing the 'mandatory use' provision with the mandatory vs non-mandatory ('advisory') cycle track regulations. Current regulations state that, where a cycle track is provided, it must be used. This is the 'mandatory use' provision, and it applies to both mandatory and non-mandatory cycle tracks. (Currently being examined by the DoT.)

The distinction between the two categories relates primarity to the obligations on drivers of motorised vehicles- they must stay out of mandatory cycle tracks during the hours of operation (no parking, not allowed to cross the solid white line), whereas they may use non-mandatory cycle tracks during the hours of operation ('use' = loading/unloading, allowed to cross the dashed white line e.g. where space is tight).

If there's one thing we might all agree on, it's that the regulations could be less confusing! (Can we?

)

Trucks Parking in the cycle lane in Santry

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