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Whats wrong with our legal system ?

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  • 09-03-2010 12:36am
    #1
    PCPhoto
    Registered Users Posts: 6,584 ✭✭✭


    Seriously - just watching RTE news (for shame !!!) .... a report on a guy in England convicted for the rape and murder of a girl ...receives a minimum of 35yrs in jail.

    but from various news reports and my own experience working at the courts... in Ireland people convicted of rape/murder get 10-15yrs (maximum) .... a similar case of rape and attempted murder today(Mon) in the Central Criminal Court - the guy gets 12yrs. (which will probably be reduced on appeal)

    Why does our legal system allow for criminals to get away with a light(ish) sentence for their crimes ..... why cant we punish convicted criminals properly ?


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    #2
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    You can't just compare two cases by looking at the crime and the jail time. There could be countless things that made the judge give a harsher sentence in the first case that weren't present in the second case. Also, one case doesn't mean that all sentences are that long. How do you know this wasn't unusually long sentence handed out by the first judge.


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    #3
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,918 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    You can't just compare two cases by looking at the crime and the jail time. There could be countless things that made the judge give a harsher sentence in the first case that weren't present in the second case. Also, one case doesn't mean that all sentences are that long. How do you know this wasn't unusually long sentence handed out by the first judge.
    Yeah I've heard that nutcracker before.

    What I hear way more often is outrage at the lenient sentences that are handed out to criminals. When you look at them on a case by case basis, you are stuck wondering how the Eddie Halveys of the world can get away with a few months suspended sentence after killing someone.

    Sorry, but I will never let that bastard go quietly.


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    #4
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,057 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    The victim in the crime is also the victim in the court room.

    The guilty get away with far far too much.

    It's one the one things I hate about this country.

    It needs to change and fast but somehow I cant see it happening.


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    #5
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The UK seriously over hauled thier laws and sorted out thier sentencing.
    We haven'ts we have out moded, out dated laws and the law reform commission moves very slowly.


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    #6
    PCPhoto
    Registered Users Posts: 6,584 ✭✭✭PCPhoto


    according to the reports ...both men had previous criminal convictions for sexual offences and put their victims through a horrible experience.

    The English guy - met his victim through facebook - abducted raped and killed her. (Dont have full details - only what I heard reported on TV)

    The Irish guy - Raped a woman in her own home,punched her in the head until she lost consciousness... tied her up and was swinging a knife at her legs before telling the woman he's going to make her watch him kill her child before he would drown her (the woman) and cut her into little pieces.

    Feel free to compare the stories yourselves:

    English Guy

    Irish Guy


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    #7
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,057 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Now I am not there biggest fan at times but there are times when Gardai catch the guilty party and bring them to court and the guilty get away with light sentence. Gardai must go mad and it happens often.

    I remember a Garda in local town caught lets say a well known (not in nice way) lad for I think it was beating young lad as he was high on drugs. Anyway the judge gives the guilty a very light sentence (if im correct he got no jail time) and I remember the Garda saying to judge after that he should have sorted out the young lad himself and brought him to dentist. Sums it up I think.


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    #8
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    PCPhoto wrote: »
    a report on a guy in England convicted for the rape and murder of a girl ...receives a minimum of 35yrs in jail.

    in Ireland people convicted of rape/murder get 10-15yrs (maximum)

    It's called the leprechaun effect.


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    #9
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    The law and it's application?


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    #10
    Sid_Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sid_Justice


    PCPhoto wrote: »
    according to the reports ...both men had previous criminal convictions for sexual offences and put their victims through a horrible experience.

    The English guy - met his victim through facebook - abducted raped and killed her. (Dont have full details - only what I heard reported on TV)

    The Irish guy - Raped a woman in her own home,punched her in the head until she lost consciousness... tied her up and was swinging a knife at her legs before telling the woman he's going to make her watch him kill her child before he would drown her (the woman) and cut her into little pieces.

    Feel free to compare the stories yourselves:

    English Guy

    Irish Guy

    Well the English guy killed his victim but the irish guy didn't. I'm not saying that makes up for the 20 year difference in custodial sentance. The english guy had a previous conviction (jailed for ~7 years).


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    #11
    PCPhoto
    Registered Users Posts: 6,584 ✭✭✭PCPhoto


    Sid_Justice wrote: »
    Well the English guy killed his victim but the irish guy didn't. I'm not saying that makes up for the 20 year difference in custodial sentance. The english guy had a previous conviction (jailed for ~7 years).

    the irish guy had 2 previous rape sentences also (cant remember what he got but he was previously jailed in Jan 2006 - not sure if this is one of his previous rape sentences or just jailed for another offence) - he was only recently released before he committed this crime.


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    #12
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    One reason amid many...
    Let be honest, some of our government has been found to be so corrupt, its unreal.
    So if they started setting down minimum jail terms for a lot of stuff, there would be no way otherwise in office, could they squirm their own particular way out of serving time and just instead get a slap on the hand and/or pay a fine.

    The last thing you want to do is change the law only to have it bite you in the ass six months or six years later.


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    #13
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Biggins wrote: »
    One reason amid many...
    Let be honest, some of our government has been found to be so corrupt, its unreal.
    So if they started setting down minimum jail terms for a lot of stuff, there would be no way otherwise in office, could they squirm their own particular way out of serving time and just instead get a slap on the hand and/or pay a fine.

    The last thing you want to do is change the law only to have it bite you in the ass six months or six years later.

    Nothing to do with corruption charges tbh. It's about murder/manslaughter/rape/serious bodily harm.


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    #14
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    IvySlayer wrote: »
    Nothing to do with corruption charges tbh. It's about murder/manslaughter/rape/serious bodily harm.

    To an extent - if they start laying down minimum terms for some crimes, the question also arises "why not for the rest?"
    Its a knock on effect - and the last thing that is wanted is for something to spread like a virus across the legal system.
    Simple example: the expenses fiasco in England, shortly there after it was our turn. Coincidence?
    When people start asking questions in regards to one area, there is a ruddy good chance the same questions will be applied and asked in similar areas - and the Dublin heads know this only too well, if only from the recent example mentioned.
    ...And they have been in this government game for near 26 years now too!

    But also as I said "One reason amid many..."


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    #15
    PCPhoto
    Registered Users Posts: 6,584 ✭✭✭PCPhoto


    just did a check: he was jailed for six years in Jan 2006 (six counts of rape) ...some feckin system we have !!!


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    #16
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,120 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    PCPhoto wrote: »

    why cant we punish convicted criminals properly ?

    You can under Brehon Law, there's a strong case to bring it back(or is it still legal?), it served us well on and off from 600AD to the mid 17th century. Victims would get real compensation flesh, sweat and money.

    Is it possible to take a case of dishonour against any of these fiends?


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    #17
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,342 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    are you seriously comparing our legal system to that of the uk :eek:

    the uk where you kill a child and for that crime you get released by 18 given a new identity and told go on your way

    the uk where you can blow up a plane with 270 people on board, spend 7 years in prison and then get out by making up a story that you have 3 months to live :rolleyes:

    the uk where anyone as long as they fit the nationality you are looking for and living in that town be it birmingham or Guildford are perpetrators of the crime in question


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    #18
    donkey balls
    Registered Users Posts: 3,436 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    are you seriously comparing our legal system to that of the uk :eek:

    the uk where you kill a child and for that crime you get released by 18 given a new identity and told go on your way

    the uk where you can blow up a plane with 270 people on board, spend 7 years in prison and then get out by making up a story that you have 3 months to live :rolleyes:

    the uk where anyone as long as they fit the nationality you are looking for and living in that town be it birmingham or Guildford are perpetrators of the crime in question

    would that be PAM AM 103 your on about? if so you should read a bit more into it google DR Jim Swire(his daughter died at lockabie)he among many people from lockabie along with a lot of airline pilots believe that the libyan guy was innocent.


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    #19
    me-skywalker
    Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭me-skywalker


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    are you seriously comparing our legal system to that of the uk :eek:
    you do know that the Irish judicial system is a basic copy of the British Judicial system and there are not many major differences within the system, barring the past 3 years where sentencing has become more strict in the UK since that have much more to fear thant our wee selves.


    I believe as Biggins posted or alluded to that if sentencing was to be overhauled it would lead to a knock on effect for EVERY crime and this includes basic theft. I do agree that thsi needs to be done and only too soon!

    Seen some basterd murder someone and be released after 13years makes me absolutley sick!


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    #20
    Happynappy
    Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭Happynappy


    My biggest concern with our legal system is that a murderer can be released after 13 years. Other than that I despair at what I see as the misuse of suspended sentencing and concurrent sentencing.

    Take this recent example. http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/17304687/
    A man gets 6 and half years in 2008 for violent robbery (if not attempted murder) and gets 3 years suspended. He is released and commits 3 violent robberies and 2 burglaries for which he gets his previous sentence reactivated for breaking the conditions of his suspended sentence and a additional 3 years for the crimes, however these 2 sentences are to run concurrent so in reality that means 3 years.

    However to top it all off, he gets another 18 months suspended meaning he has to serve just 18 months. Take off a quarter of the sentence for remission and he will only serve 13.5 months for a total of 3 violent robberies and 2 burglaries and the reactivation of a previous suspended sentence.

    Apart from the leniency why would you suspend part of a sentence on a criminal who broke the conditions of a previously suspended sentence.This makes no sense to me.

    Its only one example, but its one of many in my opinion, where criminals get off lightly because of suspended and concurrent sentencing.


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    #21
    PCPhoto
    Registered Users Posts: 6,584 ✭✭✭PCPhoto


    Happynappy wrote: »
    My biggest concern with our legal system is that a murderer can be released after 13 years. Other than that I despair at what I see as the misuse of suspended sentencing and concurrent sentencing.

    Take this recent example. http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/17304687/
    A man gets 6 and half years in 2008 for violent robbery (if not attempted murder) and gets 3 years suspended. He is released and commits 3 violent robberies and 2 burglaries for which he gets his previous sentence reactivated for breaking the conditions of his suspended sentence and a additional 3 years for the crimes, however these 2 sentences are to run concurrent so in reality that means 3 years.

    However to top it all off, he gets another 18 months suspended meaning he has to serve just 18 months. Take off a quarter of the sentence for remission and he will only serve 13.5 months for a total of 3 violent robberies and 2 burglaries and the reactivation of a previous suspended sentence.

    Apart from the leniency why would you suspend part of a sentence on a criminal who broke the conditions of a previously suspended sentence.This makes no sense to me.

    Its only one example, but its one of many in my opinion, where criminals get off lightly because of suspended and concurrent sentencing.

    because we live in a nanny state !!! - if we dont give criminals remission and lighter sentences...they might be unruly in prison and cause a riot or a food fight :eek:

    I've been calling for tougher sentences for years - the criminals in this country laugh at the system and is part of the reason why we have a lot of career criminals - with strings of convictions.

    ANYONE with a number of criminal convictions should not be entitled to ANY state benefits, this will result in criminals committing crimes - to which they increase their risk of getting caught and convicted and jailed.

    - Foreign Nationals (Assylum Seekers or just immigrants) - who are convicted of criminal offences should serve their time and be deported and banned from the country for a period of time (5 or 10yrs minimum)


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    #22
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,198 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Has anyone ever been able to understand concurrent sentencing? There must be some logic behind it but I've never come across anyone who could explain it. I should maybe try the legal forum, now that I think of it...

    PCPhoto wrote:
    - Foreign Nationals (Assylum Seekers or just immigrants) - who are convicted of criminal offences should serve their time and be deported and banned from the country for a period of time (5 or 10yrs minimum)

    Sound enough in theory, although there are some countries who will refuse to allow back inside their borders anyone convicted of a crime abroad. I know of at least one person who was effectively jailed for life for getting in a fight on a bus. The country he was in served a deportation order and his home country denied him the right of return so was in limbo for 10 years and counting.


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    #23
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Sentences seem to be based on the fact that there are no gaol cells to put criminals in. There is always the same number of criminals on our streets regardless of the courts because one has to be released from gaol to allow another prisoner in. Until there are more gaols, and gaols are less like hotels, this will never change.


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    #24
    bonerm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,595 ✭✭✭bonerm


    rossie1977 wrote: »
    the uk where you can blow up a plane with 270 people on board, spend 7 years in prison and then get out by making up a story that you have 3 months to live :rolleyes:

    Not forgetting nearly 7 months on the fella in question is still alive and living as a free man in Libya. It's a miracle. Praise Allah!


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    #25
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,477 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    69 wrote: »
    Sentences seem to be based on the fact that there are no gaol cells to put criminals in. There is always the same number of criminals on our streets regardless of the courts because one has to be released from gaol to allow another prisoner in. Until there are more gaols, and gaols are less like hotels, this will never change.

    you mean jail or prison, right?


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    #26
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    No, gaol is the correct English spelling of the word. Jail is what you see on a sign in a Deputy Dawg cartoon


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    #27
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Noun 1. gaolgaol - a correctional institution used to detain persons who are in the lawful custody of the government (either accused persons awaiting trial or convicted persons serving a sentence)


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    #28
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,477 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    69 wrote: »
    No, gaol is the correct English spelling of the word. Jail is what you see on a sign in a Deputy Dawg cartoon
    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Noun 1. gaolgaol - a correctional institution used to detain persons who are in the lawful custody of the government (either accused persons awaiting trial or convicted persons serving a sentence)

    prison it is so
    :P


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    #29
    ToxicPaddy
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    I definitely think the system does need a complete overhaul but its not something that can be done over night.. it will take years but then then look as New York as a prime example, the city was bloody dangerous in the 70s/80s until they adopted a zero tolerance to crime and started cleaning up the place. Its not perfect, crimes do happen but a lot less frequently and the criminals know what happens if they are caught..

    If they started with mandatory sentences that the courts had to enforce for certain crimes and worked their way down then it might be a start..

    Examples being:
    • Premeditated murder - 30 years, not eligible for parole until 20 served
      (Might reduce gangland hits)
    • Posession of illegal firearm - 10 years, not eligible for parole until 7.5 years served etc.. (May reduce number of guns in the hands of drug gangs)
    • Posession of drugs with intent to supply (over 1kg) - 15 Years, not eligible for parole until 10 years served etc.. (May reduce smaller players in drug game)
    • Posession of drugs with intent to supply (over 20kgs) - 25 Years, not eligible for parole until 17.5 years served etc.. (may reduce bigger players in drug game)
    • Kidnapping - 15 years, not eligible for parole until 10 years served etc..
      (May reduce number of tiger kidnappings etc)
    • Rape (premeditated) - 30 years, not eligible for parole until 20 years served

    Some simple examples that might make a criminal think twice about certain crimes..

    A lot of the crime you hear about is drug related at the moment, especially in north/west dublin, so thats an area to start with.
    I know they are targetting these guys, but once they do catch them they arent punished properly.

    After that is the prison system itself, no more cushy cell comforts. Build a few prisons like the SuperMax ones in the US, no home comforts there, and serial offenders are shipped off there for their sentence.

    Put it somewhere isolated, an island off the west coast, no weekly visits from families etc.. make the suffer a little and ensure they will think twice about committing a crime again when they get out.

    The system is too inconsistent, different judges handing down different sentences for the same crimes, premeditated murder is premeditated murder, so why should sentences differ?

    The same goes for possession of drugs, guns, rape etc..

    Granted not the ideal model but its just something to put out there.


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    #30
    ToxicPaddy
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    I know human rights do come into it, but can you honestly say that someone who has a record of 3-4 dozen convictions for serious crimes can honestly be considered someone who cares about anyones human rights??

    So why should they be given a second thought?

    The 3 strike rule is another option.. 3 mid level crimes, fraud, minor drug possession, violent assault etc.. 3 convictions and go to prison for 10 years, no questions asked.

    It all makes sense..


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    #31
    genericguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,831 ✭✭✭genericguy


    in ireland you can have 167 previous convictions and still be a playschool caretaker. you can be sent to the joy to study hairdressing for cutting up your mother's boyfriend's body. you can rape somebody and get a suspended sentence, whereas you will be sent to prison for failing to pay a fine. government ministers can commit perjury and not even be questioned by the police. priests can rape innocent little babies with the knowledge, consent and protection of the government for decades.

    but, if somebody comes into your house at night with the intention of raping you to bits, you aren't allowed to give him a dig to protect yourself.

    That's what's wrong with the justice system.


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