A Socialist blueprint?

patsman07 · 18-04-2010 01:14AM #1

I find myself in agreement with socialists on most political issues, however im still unaware of what a socialists ideal world would look like so Im looking for a book which will describe to me a socialist society. What it would look like? How would it be for the average citizen?
Utopia by Thomas More is the closest i've come to so far but its very dated.
I've tried to read Marx-Capital is pure economics and The Communist Manifesto is just a rant against capitalism. Most socialists always go on and on about what they're against but what is the alternative?

tolosenc · 18-04-2010 01:59AM

Examples of socialist states include: USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Venezuela and Yugoslavia.

That give you an idea?

Permabear · 18-04-2010 07:27AM

This post has been deleted.

SLUSK · 18-04-2010 09:54AM

Toulousain wrote: »

Examples of socialist states include: USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Venezuela and Yugoslavia.

That give you an idea?

China, a socialist country? LOL

Cannibal Ox · 18-04-2010 12:40PM

G.A Cohen - Why Not Socialism? is probably a good place to start. The problem with "socialism", like liberalism, or democracy, or capitalism, is that there isn't a socialism, no more then there is a liberalism. At the moment, I think egalitarian theory is probably more interesting than socialist theory (The Spirit Level, Equality: From Theory to Action, and Inequality Reexamined)

Denerick · 18-04-2010 06:28PM

Although DonegalFella was being coy in his recommendation, Animal Farm is an excellent book which follows in a rich tradition dating back to Burke, demonstrating the dangers of unrestrained revolution and allowing elites to form leadership factions without significant oversight or transparancy.

The fact that Orwell was indeed a socialist, lends weight to his arguments.

In the struggle for revolution, it is always the individual who loses out, and/or suffers from the associated anarchy. I think the concept of a 'utopia' is laughable, the concept of a socialist 'utopia' even more so.

People think that 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need' is a fundamentally virtuous concept. But I would pose this question - who decides what my ability is and who decides what my needs are? What monolithical ultra statist body is going to play havoc with my individual liberty in this manner?

Iwasfrozen · 18-04-2010 06:30PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Wasn't that more of a book on how not to run a socialist society ?

Toulousain wrote:

Examples of socialist states include: USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Venezuela and Yugoslavia.

That give you an idea?

You can stop trolling now.

ei.sdraob · 18-04-2010 06:46PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Toulousain wrote: »

Examples of socialist states include: USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Venezuela and Yugoslavia.

You can stop trolling now.

what they werent "socialist" enough

you follow socialism to its logical conclusion and it never ends pretty, history is littered with bloody examples

Iwasfrozen · 18-04-2010 06:53PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what they werent "socialist" enough

you follow socialism to its logical conclusion and it never ends pretty, history is littered with bloody examples

An apple called a bannana is still an apple. Just because they said they were socialist doesn't mean they where.

Read some of Marx's work to find out what a real socialist society would be like.

Denerick · 18-04-2010 07:00PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

An apple called a bannana is still an apple. Just because they said they were socialist doesn't mean they where.

Read some of Marx's work to find out what a real socialist society would be like.

There is no fundamental text to define what a socialist body will look like. Did you ever pause to think that maybe socialism doesn't work because every society that has ever tried it has resorted to state capitalism and brutal repression?

Have you ever considered that something is fundamentally wrong in the formula that allows for the creation of a small, militant elite, with enormous political power?

Socialism as a revolutionary ideology has been proven impractical. Face it.

Valmont · 18-04-2010 07:09PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Read some of Marx's work to find out what a real socialist society would be like.

Ah, the "No True Scotsman" of socialism. I am perplexed as to why so many socialists trot this argument again and again and again....

Should we keep trying horrible socialistic experiments until we get the right answer? The one enshrined by Herr Marx? According to the boards.ie socialists, yes, let the blood flow ad infinitum until we reach the utopia of equality. I would make a claim for reality here but that would be too obvious...

Iwasfrozen · 18-04-2010 07:38PM

Denerick wrote: »

There is no fundamental text to define what a socialist body will look like. Did you ever pause to think that maybe socialism doesn't work because every society that has ever tried it has resorted to state capitalism and brutal repression?

Did you ever pause to think that maybe I'm not a socialist and was only pointing out an error in another post ? No ? Tought not.

Denerick wrote: »

Have you ever considered that something is fundamentally wrong in the formula that allows for the creation of a small, militant elite, with enormous political power?

Are you trying to say Capitalism doesn't create a powerful elite ?

Denerick wrote: »

Socialism as a revolutionary ideology has been proven impractical. Face it.

Socialism has not proven itself impractical, far from it since it is still a theory.

Iwasfrozen · 18-04-2010 07:39PM

Valmont wrote: »

Ah, the "No True Scotsman" of socialism. I am perplexed as to why so many socialists trot this argument again and again and again....

Should we keep trying horrible socialistic experiments until we get the right answer? The one enshrined by Herr Marx? According to the boards.ie socialists, yes, let the blood flow ad infinitum until we reach the utopia of equality. I would make a claim for reality here but that would be too obvious...

Again you make the assumption I am a socialist...

I hope you feel pretty dumb now.

ei.sdraob · 18-04-2010 07:40PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

read some of Marx's work to find out what a real socialist society would be like.

sure thing, i did

enjoy its quite short but gets right to the point

Permabear · 18-04-2010 08:11PM

This post has been deleted.

Spudmonkey · 18-04-2010 08:13PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

sure thing, i did

enjoy its quite short but gets right to the point

Marx: "And that my son is how communism works!!"

Freddy: "....I think I want my mommy...."

CoalBucket · 18-04-2010 08:46PM

patsman07 wrote: »

I find myself in agreement with socialists on most political issues, however im still unaware of what a socialists ideal world would look like so Im looking for a book which will describe to me a socialist society. What it would look like? How would it be for the average citizen?
Utopia by Thomas More is the closest i've come to so far but its very dated.
I've tried to read Marx-Capital is pure economics and The Communist Manifesto is just a rant against capitalism. Most socialists always go on and on about what they're against but what is the alternative?

The Ragged Trousered Philantropist, Not exactly what you are looking for but well worth a read no matter what your political persuasion.

ei.sdraob · 18-04-2010 08:53PM

jokes aside

the only good working example of a socialist utopia i can think of is the world depicted in the star trek series
but hey they have access to near limitless energy and energy<>mater conversion technology

socialism might just work in such a situation and people might spend time on pursuits like arts, research and exploration
but then again some things might always be in short supply (the Ferengi gota love em

) and this point of time we live on a spinning rock with a growing population

Actually thats one thing about Socialism, Marx insisted that for it to work the whole planet has to "convert", i wonder how would worldwide socialism work out in a closed system with limited resources and rising population, stagnation would ensue in no time putting the Soviet rot to shame

anyways just rambling on

patsman07 · 18-04-2010 09:33PM

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try 'Why Not Socialism' and a few others. I've read Animal Farm. Its just a parody of the Stalin era in the Soviet Union and his dispute with Trotsky.

Denerick · 18-04-2010 09:34PM

patsman07 wrote: »

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try 'Why Not Socialism' and a few others. I've read Animal Farm. Its just a parody of the Stalin era in the Soviet Union and his dispute with Trotsky.

Superficially yes, but there is much much much more to it than that.

patsman07 · 18-04-2010 09:44PM

Denerick wrote: »

Superficially yes, but there is much much much more to it than that.

Could you expand on that please?

Denerick · 18-04-2010 10:11PM

patsman07 wrote: »

Could you expand on that please?

Well to describe it as a parody of Stalinism is perhaps to overlook the more substantial message in Animal Farm - namely the tendancy for revolutionary elites to betray the principles on which the masses struggled for, the tendancy for these groups to twist and corrupt and employ brutal repression in the interests of maintaining their grip on power.

You also have the whole theme of 'all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others', the final mantra of the revolution which changed so many times that the animals could no longer remember what they originally fought for. Remember the wise old donkey that refused to get on board the revolutionary bandwagon at the beginning - thats Orwell!

Of course Orwell wrote the book at a time when Stalin was extremely popular in Britain at the height of the war and its immediate aftermath. So it is of course dictated by that very obvious political reality but I believe he was making a broader argument.

P.S- Also lets not forget the fundamental anti-Utopian theme.

Bigdeadlydave · 18-04-2010 10:12PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

sure thing, i did

enjoy its quite short but gets right to the point

I have to admit I enjoyed that.

Sandvich · 24-04-2010 01:51AM

Valmont wrote: »

Ah, the "No True Scotsman" of socialism. I am perplexed as to why so many socialists trot this argument again and again and again....

Should we keep trying horrible socialistic experiments until we get the right answer? The one enshrined by Herr Marx? According to the boards.ie socialists, yes, let the blood flow ad infinitum until we reach the utopia of equality. I would make a claim for reality here but that would be too obvious...

That's not how you use No True Scotsman. You can claim that homosexuals are paedophiles; and then when someone says homosexuals are not paedophilies, that's the NO TRUE SCOTSMAN fallacy. It's rubbish. You actually have to explain why. Blurting out logical fallacies doesn't prove a point.

Also, is the Nordic model an example of a "horrible socialistic experiments?" It's just as much "socialist" as most of the examples listed. To deny those would be as much so a "No true Scotsman", or should I say no True Swede?

The "socialism" people on this forum would push for and the "socialism" of countries like China are obviously very different. People often hold up Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland as examples, so obviously that's closer to the route they want to see persued.

It's also nonsense because socialism is not meant to be something that's "forced" on the people like in "Communist" Russia. There are actually reasons why they're bad examples. All of these states are pretty obviously socialist mostly in name only, but they're just too damn good for the neoliberals to pass up!

But instead you insist NO YOU'RE ALL COMMIES. The way socialists are jumped in this forum is both absurd and highly childish.

MrMatisse · 24-04-2010 03:57PM

There seems to be some confusion here between socialism and communism.

Socialist countries include-Sweden, Norway,Finland, Denmark and to a lesser extent Germany and France. Very well run countries although France is borderline.

Unregulated free markets do not work, attempts to regulate and manipulate them through state intervention in order to better the lot of the people in a country is a socialist idea.

Chile under pinochet, was capitalist. Socialism does not always equal tryanny or economic mismanagement. Ireland is capitalist......

Free market ranting is an idea generated by economists born in the 19th century Hayek etc which was discredited between 1950-1980 as governments saw things as free healthcare and old age pensions as necessary to promote political stability (both socialist ideas).

People forget why such things were introduced and thus see them only as a burden.

Eliot Rosewater · 24-04-2010 04:00PM

Sandvich wrote: »

That's not how you use No True Scotsman.

It is, actually. The claim is that socialism will create equality. It is quickly pointed out that socialism in Cuba has only created inequality, to which is replied "Cuba not true socialism".

Sandvich wrote: »

People often hold up Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland as examples, so obviously that's closer to the route they want to see persued.

No, it's not. The countries you listed are still market economies. Socialists on this forum appear to be looking for much more that just a big welfare state.

Sandvich wrote: »

All of these states are pretty obviously socialist mostly in name only, but they're just too damn good for the neoliberals to pass up!

I think you've just played yourself into the aforementioned no true Scotsman fallacy: you are saying that China and the USSR aren't (or weren't) true socialist states.

MrMatisse · 24-04-2010 04:03PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what they werent "socialist" enough

you follow socialism to its logical conclusion and it never ends pretty, history is littered with bloody examples

Thankfully we now live in a peaceful war-less post socialist world.......

ei.sdraob · 24-04-2010 04:05PM

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Ireland is capitalist......

can i quote you on that :rolleyes:

MrMatisse · 24-04-2010 04:05PM

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

It is, actually. The claim is that socialism will create equality. It is quickly pointed out that socialism in Cuba has only created inequality, to which is replied "Cuba not true socialism".

No, it's not. The countries you listed are still market economies. Socialists on this forum appear to be looking for much more that just a big welfare state.

I think you've just played yourself into the aforementioned no true Scotsman fallacy: you are saying that China and the USSR aren't (or weren't) true socialist states.

Sweden, Norway, Denmark are market economies?

How?

You need a permit to move house in Sweden.

They have a market, a market heavily manipulated by their government. Again socialism and communism are not the same.

MrMatisse · 24-04-2010 04:06PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

can i quote you on that :rolleyes:

Of course.

MrMatisse · 24-04-2010 04:09PM

We have no history of social democrats in Ireland, thus people on this forum mix marxism, communism into one, throw in socialism and associate this concoction with stalin, not with socialist sweden, old age pensions and healthcare for the poor. Two things which are not compatible with pure capitalism.

There is also a serious misunderstanding that socialist polices cannot be introduced into a market economy (sweden finland etc)

A Socialist blueprint?

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