Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Stuxnet - An act of war from America on Iran

«1

Comments

  • #2
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    America and Israel do what they like.


  • #3
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Well, if the US is responsible (and it wouldn't surprise me), then yes it would an act of war, and seeing as its a civilian nuclear program, they could even call it state terrorism if the US were responsible.


  • #4
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    whiteonion wrote: »
    The US has engaged in cyberwarfare against Iran. http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/US-Israeli-Computer-Program-Slows-Irans-Nuclear-Ambitions-113843929.html This worm was responsible for shutting down a fifth of Iran's nuclear centrifuges. Imagine if Iran had done the same thing against America, would anyone say that it wasn't an act of war then?

    Most sources seem to indicate Israel as the likely source, not the US.

    So far everything is speculation.

    NTM


  • #5
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    whiteonion wrote: »
    The US has engaged in cyberwarfare against Iran. http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/US-Israeli-Computer-Program-Slows-Irans-Nuclear-Ambitions-113843929.html This worm was responsible for shutting down a fifth of Iran's nuclear centrifuges. Imagine if Iran had done the same thing against America, would anyone say that it wasn't an act of war then?

    If the US and Israel (and the report provides no actual proof, "The report in The New York Times quotes unidentified intelligence and military experts") did this then delaying Iran getting nuclear weapons is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Its only the usual anti-Israel or anti-US types who would say otherwise.


  • #6
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    If the US and Israel (and the report provides no actual proof, "The report in The New York Times quotes unidentified intelligence and military experts") did this then delaying Iran getting nuclear weapons is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Its only the usual anti-Israel or anti-US types who would say otherwise.

    No proof of a active Iranian Nuclear weapons program either btw....


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    wes wrote: »
    Well, if the US is responsible (and it wouldn't surprise me), then yes it would an act of war, and seeing as its a civilian nuclear program, they could even call it state terrorism if the US were responsible.

    There are many ways to engage in war without openly declaring it. Iran hasn't supplied Hezbollah with 40k+ rockets to decorate their gardens with, its to engage in a proxy war with Israel at some point (which looks more and more likely should the Hariri tribunal implicate the Imperious leader in the Hariri assassination.


  • #8
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    There are many ways to engage in war without openly declaring it. Iran hasn't supplied Hezbollah with 40k+ rockets to decorate their gardens with, its to engage in a proxy war with Israel at some point (which looks more and more likely should the Hariri tribunal implicate the Imperious leader in the Hariri assassination.

    Iran supplying weapons to Hezbollah is no different than the US supplying arms to Israel. So no real proof of any intent on Iran's part either way. I am sure Iran see's supplying weapons to Hezbollah in much the same way as the US does to Israel, and see's it as a defensive measure.


  • #9
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    It is slightly different. Israel is a legitimate and independent nation state, whilst hezbollah cannot really be considered the legitimate armed force of the state of lebanon. Though the US has certainly never been adverse to providing arms to' unofficial' groups, I am at a loss right now to think of a group it armed which had as their primary target a third country as opposed to an internal struggle.


  • #10
    whiteonion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 837 ✭✭✭whiteonion


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    It is slightly different. Israel is a legitimate and independent nation state, whilst hezbollah cannot really be considered the legitimate armed force of the state of lebanon. Though the US has certainly never been adverse to providing arms to' unofficial' groups, I am at a loss right now to think of a group it armed which had as their primary target a third country as opposed to an internal struggle.

    Is it ok that America sells weapons do brutal dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia as well?


  • #11
    EastTexas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭EastTexas


    whiteonion wrote: »
    Is it ok that America sells weapons do brutal dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia as well?

    Germany half the size of Texas is the world’s third largest arms dealer and sells to anybody willing to lay down the dough.
    In the case of Greece, even to people who clearly don’t have the dough.

    That said I would not be surprised if our government is up to shenanigans.
    Wouldn’t be the first time.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    It is slightly different. Israel is a legitimate and independent nation state,

    Who are illegally occupying Palestinian land, and actively colonising it, which is illegitimate.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    whilst hezbollah cannot really be considered the legitimate armed force of the state of lebanon.

    This is true enough, but Israel is hardly using it weapons in a legitimate manner, seeing as there being used to violate international law, via the constant colonisation of East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Btw, the US has funded Israeli roads in the West Bank:

    U.S. taxpayers are paying for Israel's West Bank occupation

    The US not only actively arms Israel to help it steal Palestinian land, it even funds the actual theft itself as well.

    That is essentially why, I don't see much of a difference. Yes, things aren't exactly the same, but I don't see how any side can claim moral superiority.


  • #13
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Who are illegally occupying Palestinian land, and actively colonising it, which is illegitimate.

    And which has nothing to do with the lebanon and Iran's arming of Hezbollah.

    That is essentially why, I don't see much of a difference. Yes, things aren't exactly the same, but I don't see how any side can claim moral superiority.

    Lets see who starts the next lebanon war.

    (Hint: The answer isn't Israel, it needs another Lebanon war like it needs the proverbial "nother hole in the head")


  • #14
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    whiteonion wrote: »
    Is it ok that America sells weapons do brutal dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia as well?

    Those damn americans! Why is it that one never sees criticism of say Russia or China who will arm pretty much anyone.


  • #15
    whiteonion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 837 ✭✭✭whiteonion


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Those damn americans! Why is it that one never sees criticism of say Russia or China who will arm pretty much anyone.

    Because the Russians and the Chinese don't preach about the values of freedom, democracy etc. No one likes a hypocrite.


  • #16
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    whiteonion wrote: »
    Because the Russians and the Chinese don't preach about the values of freedom, democracy etc. No one likes a hypocrite.

    Ah ok, because they are naturally evil, its ok for them to continue being evil.


  • #17
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Most sources seem to indicate Israel as the likely source, not the US.
    Don't we have tight political ties to Israel?


  • #18
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Overheal wrote: »
    Don't we have tight political ties to Israel?

    I read that a bunch of the neocons have dual citizenship between Israel and the US and are staunch Zionists.

    They're certainly zionists but I cant confirm the dual citizenship part.


  • #19
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,986 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    whiteonion wrote: »
    Is it ok that America sells weapons do brutal dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia as well?

    As long as there are no particular barriers to trade, such as the embargo on South Africa (which the US followed), why not? It's not as if there are any countries at all which have decided to avoid dealing with S.A. on principle; Before the 1990 war the hot favourite to provide the Saudis with armoured vehicles was Brazil. Saudi has since bought Eurofighter, and their upcoming tank purchase is looking like being Spanish.

    I don't believe the Saudis are using F-15s and Abrams tanks to conduct their internal brutal dictatorising, are they? Seems they're being used in the correct role of foreign affairs.

    NTM


  • #20
    EastTexas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭EastTexas


    Just saw a brief report on this.
    The worm made their centrifuges spin so fast that they self distracted, all whilst the monitoring panels indicated that everything is just fine.
    That’s just brilliant if not somewhat comical.

    Could not help snickering :)

    Not a single shot fired and no innocent civilians hurt or worse is the real beauty.


  • #21
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    I'm sure it would be very funny if it was done to your country. :rolleyes:


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    And which has nothing to do with the lebanon and Iran's arming of Hezbollah.

    Was replying to a point being made by another poster.
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    Lets see who starts the next lebanon war.

    (Hint: The answer isn't Israel, it needs another Lebanon war like it needs the proverbial "nother hole in the head")

    Well, seeing as Israel has violated Lebanon's borders on a regular basis (basically regular acts of war), it may very well be Israel who kicks things off. I know some people like to forget Israel near constant aggression against other people, and make them out to be the victim, but there just as often causing trouble as anyone.


  • #23
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    EastTexas wrote: »
    Just saw a brief report on this.
    The worm made their centrifuges spin so fast that they self distracted, all whilst the monitoring panels indicated that everything is just fine.
    That’s just brilliant if not somewhat comical.

    Could not help snickering :)

    Not a single shot fired and no innocent civilians hurt or worse is the real beauty.

    This post embodies the typical hypocrisy embedded in the American mindset. Had this been an attack on a US nuclear plant it would be denounced from the rooftops as the greatest attack on American freedom since 9/11. There would have been calls for retaliation and righteous indignation would be prevalent.


  • #24
    EastTexas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭EastTexas


    karma_ wrote: »
    This post embodies the typical hypocrisy embedded in the American mindset. Had this been an attack on a US nuclear plant it would be denounced from the rooftops as the greatest attack on American freedom since 9/11. There would have been calls for retaliation and righteous indignation would be prevalent.

    You’re absolutely correct, no disagreements here. :D
    But that doesn’t take away from how clever the worm was/ is, hence the snickering on my part.
    Not that it is known by any degree of certainty whether the US or Israel was the actual perpetrator.

    That said, we are under an ongoing cyber attack of a different sort with Julian Assange passing his time under house arrest poring over a massive amount of stolen classified documents in a British mansion, ankle bracelet attached, whilst his alleged facilitator is complaining about the lack of pillows in his cell and awaiting military court proceedings.

    You couldn’t make this stuff up.
    Tom Clancy will have to up the ante if he wants to be even remotely interesting; given how much more riveting reality has become compared to fiction.


  • #25
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    EastTexas wrote: »
    You’re absolutely correct, no disagreements here. :D
    But that doesn’t take away from how clever the worm was/ is, hence the snickering on my part.
    Not that it is known by any degree of certainty whether the US or Israel was the actual perpetrator.

    That said, we are under an ongoing cyber attack of a different sort with Julian Assange passing his time under house arrest poring over a massive amount of stolen classified documents in a British mansion, ankle bracelet attached, whilst his alleged facilitator is complaining about the lack of pillows in his cell and awaiting military court proceedings.

    You couldn’t make this stuff up.
    Tom Clancy will have to up the ante if he wants to be even remotely interesting; given how much more riveting reality has become compared to fiction.

    It does not matter where he worm originated, nor how clever it was.

    As for wikileaks and Assange, I fail to see any similarities between these 2 incidents, nor do I recognise how one justifies the other. Whistle-blowing is a world away from sabotaging a nuclear power plant.


  • #26
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    karma_ wrote: »
    It does not matter where he worm originated, nor how clever it was.

    As for wikileaks and Assange, I fail to see any similarities between these 2 incidents, nor do I recognise how one justifies the other. Whistle-blowing is a world away from sabotaging a nuclear power plant.

    The worm wasn't used to sabotage a nuclear power plant. It was used to damage centrifuges used for uranium enrichment. We're not talking about three mile island or something here :rolleyes:


  • #27
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    wes wrote: »
    Well, seeing as Israel has violated Lebanon's borders on a regular basis (basically regular acts of war), it may very well be Israel who kicks things off. I know some people like to forget Israel near constant aggression against other people, and make them out to be the victim, but there just as often causing trouble as anyone.

    I know the default state with some on this forum is "blame Israel" but one has to look at the circumstances as they pertain now. The Lebanon is on a knife-edge at the moment over the Hariri tribunal because it looks like Hezbollah/Iran will be blamed for the assassination of the former Lebanese head of state.

    If the Lebanese government refuse to be browbeaten by Iran/Hezbollah and refuse the Saudi/Syrian deal and publish the report then theres a high possibility that Hezbollah will start rocketing northern israel to deflect world attention away from their implication in the killing, the presumption being that if Israel retaliates then it will be easy to manipulate opinion to "blame Israel" again.


  • #28
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Most sources seem to indicate Israel as the likely source, not the US.

    So far everything is speculation.

    NTM

    Speculatively, Unit 8200 provided the tech.


  • #29
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    I know the default state with some on this forum is "blame Israel" but one has to look at the circumstances as they pertain now.

    I didn't blame Israel, just pointing out that they are just as likely as anyone to kick things off, as they do actually regularly violate Lebanese air space from time to time for example. Something like that could easily kick things off. Any side doing something stupid could start something, and Israel does regularly do stupid things just like Hezbollah.
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    The Lebanon is on a knife-edge at the moment over the Hariri tribunal because it looks like Hezbollah/Iran will be blamed for the assassination of the former Lebanese head of state.

    If the Lebanese government refuse to be browbeaten by Iran/Hezbollah and refuse the Saudi/Syrian deal and publish the report then theres a high possibility that Hezbollah will start rocketing northern israel to deflect world attention away from their implication in the killing, the presumption being that if Israel retaliates then it will be easy to manipulate opinion to "blame Israel" again.

    I doubt Hezbollah are that stupid. They are part of the government and they do need support from there Shia base, who would bear the brunt of any conflict with Israel. Pissing off your base, is a sure fire way, to make yourself irrelevant.

    Now, I don't doubt Hezbollahs capacity for doing something stupid (just as overtly stupid and pointless as deliberately starting a war), but it would probably be something, that they wouldn't expect a huge reaction from Israel, and I also think the opposite is possible, with Israel doing something they have gotten away with in the past in regards to violating Lebanon's terrirtory, and getting a massive response from Hezbollah. I doubt etiher side will intend to kick things off.


  • #30
    SamHarris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭SamHarris


    whiteonion wrote: »
    The US has engaged in cyberwarfare against Iran. http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/US-Israeli-Computer-Program-Slows-Irans-Nuclear-Ambitions-113843929.html This worm was responsible for shutting down a fifth of Iran's nuclear centrifuges. Imagine if Iran had done the same thing against America, would anyone say that it wasn't an act of war then?

    Technically they have been at war since the Embassy seige. If you wanted to really trace an act of war, that would be the first.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    I know the default state with some on this forum is "blame Israel" but one has to look at the circumstances as they pertain now. The Lebanon is on a knife-edge at the moment over the Hariri tribunal because it looks like Hezbollah/Iran will be blamed for the assassination of the former Lebanese head of state.

    If the Lebanese government refuse to be browbeaten by Iran/Hezbollah and refuse the Saudi/Syrian deal and publish the report then theres a high possibility that Hezbollah will start rocketing northern israel to deflect world attention away from their implication in the killing, the presumption being that if Israel retaliates then it will be easy to manipulate opinion to "blame Israel" again.

    I don't think you are getting the point..

    If China planted a worm in US nuclear power stations you would most likely not support that am I correct?

    If the US planted a worm in Iran nuclear power stations you would most likely support this (from your other posts)

    How would you feel about Norway planting a worm in French nuclear power stations? ...

    If there is bias in your answers then..

    ..making statements about other people being biased isn't really gonna wash now is it. Heres a little example, when I used to criticise GW Bush on here I got accused of being anti-American, I now have a very strong feeling that those same people wouldn't say I am anti-American for criticising Obama.. its about sides.

    Wee bit hypocritical dont you think


    All that legal internet debate jargon out the way, personally, this stuff goes on all the time, I wouldn't call it a game, but its low level "warfare/subterfuge", no one is innocent, "we" can play just as dirty as "them (or dirtier), no matter what tv/movies portray


Advertisement