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Internship scheme.

  • 29-06-2011 9:19am
    #1
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    I came across this on the RTE site just a few moments ago:


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0629/internship.html


    IT describes the new internship scheme that was mentioned as part of the jobs initiative in May. Nothing we didn't know before and to be honest, this just seems to be the FAS WPP repackaged.

    There's also a link on the page to the site of the programme which seems to be empty of "jobs" at present. Strangly enough, the search page had a FAS header when I had a look at it which further adds to my belief that this is just the WPP by another name.

    Anyway, anyone familiar with my post history will know how I feel on internships. If in power tomorrow, one of my first acts would be to put an end to these schemes and make it illegal for employers to offer unpaid work. If someone actually wants to work for free, that's a different matter but I find the idea of unpaid jobs flooding the market to be a very, very dangerous thing to allow.

    Before anyone who disagrees with me points this out, I am well aware of the importance of experience but consider the following. If a graduate does an internship for a year, they get a year of experience which will help them in the hunt for a real job. However, if more and more people do this then that one year really doesn't set the said graduate very high above the water so suddenly, two years of experience is needed. Then, what stops this becoming three years and so on?

    I think this work for experience nonsence is becoming far too widespread and it doesn't take a much of a mind to grasp that this will be abused. OF course, Joan Burton seems to think differently but to explain this, refer to the bolded section of the previous sentence.


«1345678

Comments

  • #2
    Cannibal Ox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭Cannibal Ox


    Companies, in particular sectors, have an interest in taking on people, seeing if they'll fit and, if they do, keeping them. That can work, it can be exploitive, but, in some sectors, you have to put up with. It'll be a disaster if it spreads through all sectors, becomes institutionalized via the state and becomes part of a normal career path in Ireland.

    Ideally, internships should be kept to specific sectors, and should be done by companies in those sectors, not the state. They should be paid minimum wage, terms of reference should be set out clearly in advance and whether there's a chance of being taken on permanently at the end of the internship should be made clear at the beginning.


  • #3
    Shelga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭Shelga


    I felt angry when I read about this on RTE.ie this morning. How this can possibly be lauded as a positive step is beyond me. The idea of the FAS WPP scheme: "Hey companies, even massive MNCs and profitable businesses, here's some slaves for you and the government will subsidise their wages, albeit a paltry amount!" This new scheme is the same concept but even more dangerous, as taxpayers will now be spending even more to subsidise the labour of these companies.

    I don't know if we're allowed to name the companies who participate in these schemes, but it is absolutely laughable. I just finished up on one of these internships on Friday (hypocritical I know)- the company I worked for had 2010 profits of €7.8 billion. I was also told by a reliable source that they used to hire paid graduates every year, on an extremely generous starting salary, and now just use these interns instead.

    I only lasted 12 weeks in my job as I managed to secure an actual offer of employment in the UK. In the back of my mind I always viewed the work as something to help me when I emigrated, not something to aid me in finding a permanent position in this country, as I had all but given up on that prospect.

    I would like to ask Minister Burton how she believes that this initiative creates new, paid, skilled positions? It doesn't.
    RichardAnd wrote: »
    If a graduate does an internship for a year, they get a year of experience which will help them in the hunt for a real job. However, if more and more people do this then that one year really doesn't set the said graduate very high above the water so suddenly, two years of experience is needed. Then, what stops this becoming three years and so on?

    I wholeheartedly agree with this point. Not many people are taking up the WPP as it stands, but add an extra €50, and there just may be a significant increase in the numbers. Then we are in a situation where graduates are competing for unpaid jobs. Madness. :mad:


  • #4
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Speaking from the position of a successful guy, I started out doing free and almost free work for experience. I was lucky enough to end up with bosses who made an effort to impart their knowledge and experience and I truly believe I am where I am today as much to the work of people at the beginning of my career as to my formal education.

    My company takes in interns, paying a stipend to cover their expenses. They work out an internship program - what the individual hopes to gain and what we know they need to - that is a curriculum to follow, and get regular face time to talk and learn from those they hope to one day be.

    We subsequently hire many interns when positions open up.

    Companies wishing to take a punt on an untried employee is difficult enough, the fact that our third level education system produces workers who need at least six months to a year on the job (our internships are 3 months or less, btw) to become truly proficient is another downside to hiring people fresh.

    A business that takes in interns and treats them properly gives the intern a lot more value than any dogsbody work the intern will do in return.

    I agree that internships should always be framed so that the people get real and valuable experience, and not just be coffee runners.


  • #5
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,303 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    So... I say it'll be at the very most a month before you see shops offering "internships" of stocking the shelves, sweeping the floors, etc. Also "internships" that will need 4+ years experience as a manager to do a "internship" of being a manager, managing people who will probably be getting paid an annual wage...


  • #6
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    the_syco wrote: »
    So... I say it'll be at the very most a month before you see shops offering "internships" of stocking the shelves, sweeping the floors, etc. Also "internships" that will need 4+ years experience as a manager to do a "internship" of being a manager, managing people who will probably be getting paid an annual wage...


    That's what happened with the WPP scheme. The thing about this one is that the extra 50 euro might just push some poor saps into it. Further, I would wager that scheme like this will become compulsory at some point and not just for graduates with little experience.


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  • #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    the_syco wrote: »
    So... I say it'll be at the very most a month before you see shops offering "internships" of stocking the shelves, sweeping the floors, etc. Also "internships" that will need 4+ years experience as a manager to do a "internship" of being a manager, managing people who will probably be getting paid an annual wage...

    you mean like this:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65110764

    and this:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65095313

    and now you can teach primary school children for the dole:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056309276

    and they pick and choose candidates for these jobs - if you dont have experience you cant get experience
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056300518

    so the whole thing is a con

    TG4 are in on the antics too
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055795040&page=36


    and this is my personal favourite the "washroom technician"

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65085023

    checkout staff
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65054742

    shoe shops in Liffey Valley were in on it too
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65051844

    drive trucks for the dole:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65059001


  • #8
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Deleted User wrote: »

    and now you can teach primary school children for the dole:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056309276


    This one struck a chord for me. There was a recent announcment of plans to build 40 new schools over the next few years. I think we can see where they will be getting their teachers from...


  • #9
    Psychedelic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Psychedelic


    One of the problems with this scheme is that employers can get rid of one of their existing employees on decent wages and then get an intern to do the same work for free. When the 9 months internship is up, just get another intern.

    In my place of work, one employee who is 20 years in the job was recently told that management decided they want him gone soon. His role is essential to the business so management will obviously replace him with someone else, which will most likely be an intern.


  • #10
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Psychedelic wrote: »
    One of the problems with this scheme is that employers can get rid of one of their existing employees on decent wages and then get an intern to do the same work for free. When the 9 months internship is up, just get another intern.

    In my place of work, one employee who is 20 years in the job was recently told that management decided they want him gone soon. His role is essential to the business so management will obviously replace him with someone else, which will most likely be an intern.

    I'll believe these scare stories when I see quantified evidence of them. Otherwise they're just reds under the bed type crap.

    Interning has been going on on a big scale for a few years now, with experienced as well as inexperienced people going for them; and I've not encountered a single senior manager who would offload critical staff and replace them with interns. Or any staff for that matter.


  • #11
    Psychedelic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Psychedelic


    Well it has happened in the company I work in anyway. And the very similar WPP Scheme proved that employers will take the piss.

    Look at it from the employer's point of view, why pay for something you can get for free. A good employer will recognise the adverse affect of doing this would have on staff morale etc. But stupid and greedy managers looking at things from a purely financial perspective might get rid of core staff for an intern.


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  • #12
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Psychedelic wrote: »
    Well it has happened in the company I work in anyway. And the very similar WPP Scheme proved that employers will take the piss.

    Look at it from the employer's point of view, why pay for something you can get for free. A good employer will recognise the adverse affect of doing this would have on staff morale etc. But stupid and greedy managers looking at things from a purely financial perspective might get rid of core staff for an intern.

    One joy of the recession has been that stupid and greedy managers have increasingly become obsolete or exported elsewhere.

    I know a lot of SMB's through various activities, being an MD myself, and know nobody who does this. It's bad for staff morale, operations, etc.

    Any business doing it is on its last legs.

    Besides, naming a shaming these businesses will be easy if it becomes a major problem. It's not difficult to add two and two, and fired employees won't have much to lose in screwing their ex-employer!

    I wouldn't buy from a company that had this policy, personally or in my business dealings. That's something I think most businesses recognize.

    For now, I err on the side of believing these tales of intern run companies with a single paid manager are old wives scare stories.


  • #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irish-companies-lining-up-to-take-interns-in-new-scheme-2808565.html
    prestige companies such as Hewlett Packard, Google, Facebook and the ESB would take on at least one intern with the possibility of some larger companies taking on between five and 10 workers.

    A total of 500 companies have already signed up to the scheme including the Quinn group, Smurfit Kappa, Mercury Engineering and Aer Lingus.

    The new scheme is a two year internship programme offering work placements to 5,000 people currently on the live register in the hope of giving them the chance to get a foot on the employment ladder.

    first with the property ladders now with the employment ladders


  • #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    cleaner.jpg


  • #15
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Gods sake, any company taking the piss like that should be named and shamed.


  • #16
    BeeDI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭BeeDI


    I will never, ever understand the logic of some people on here. I hear all this clap trap, about employers taking advantage of would be interns, and using them as free labour.
    I say to people "get off your asses, and get out there, and start knocking on doors". "And if necessary work for free"!

    bill-cullen


  • #17
    Debtocracy
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭Debtocracy


    IMF NEEDS YOU!
    BeeDI wrote: »
    bill-cullen


  • #18
    donkey balls
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    When the FAS WPP scheme came out I saw an advert for a job were the employer stipulated that the person must have at least two years experience and be over 25yrs for insurance purpose:eek:,Now in order for a person to do that job and get trained up these days would be around 4/5k and then work for nothing.
    I know off a well known MNC who informed one of their employees that there job title would be changed along with a 17k pay drop yet still be doing the same work,Now this company posted Q1 profits of 3 bn and along with them taking over another contract were I heard from a good source that there was not much between the two tenders yet the company pays their staff half the amount in wages that the company who lost the contract pays their staff.
    IBEC the employers union must be falling over them selves using the R word as a means to beat employees T&Cs down to a bare minimum.


  • #19
    ArtSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 5,614 ✭✭✭ArtSmart


    Big thread on this in AH ( i think it's AH anyway)


  • #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    http://www.herald.ie/national-news/burton-slashes-dole-for-jobless-who-wont-work-2629338.html

    THE jobless face cuts to their dole if they refuse to take up work or training offers under a new crackdown.

    Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton is to introduce new rules where people on unemployment benefits will face financial penalties for the first time if they consistently refuse to take up offers of training, education, or course placements.


  • #21
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Nothing wrong with having an incentive to drive people to upskill, or take work for that matter.


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  • #22
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Deleted User wrote: »
    http://www.herald.ie/national-news/burton-slashes-dole-for-jobless-who-wont-work-2629338.html

    I would see that a PR stunt to be honest.

    When my partner was out of work, she did whatever she could to get a FAS placement.
    It took them just 6 months to organize a course for her, and when they did, it was on the other side of the country!! It took another 6 months before they could organize one she could actually attend.
    So she was actively seeking retraining, pestering them to get something and it took a year to get off their arses.

    What pissed her off even more, was that she couldn't get a cent because they wouldn't approve her for JSA, and there were plenty of time wasters at the course who didn't even want to learn, they were just there to get money.


  • #23
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Fully agree with the OP, this is just the start of a race to the bottom.

    Two questions:
    What unpaid internships available in the public sector? (i.e. what jobs/what sectors?)
    What have the unions said about this?


  • #24
    ninty9er
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    My General Manager has asked me to consider introducing the scheme. I certainly will consider it, but I have no intention of hiring someone to do something menial.

    It's a scheme that would give me an opportunity to hire someone in a skill area that I currently have someone doing that is overworked, it's also a revenue generating area, so if it's viable work and someone is good at it, they can be retained on a salaried basis at the end of the period on the basis that they have proven their ability to self-fund the position.

    Otherwise I'll end up hiring a student on placement who'll be doing it for free. I just don't have the budget for endless salaries.

    Some people would have you think that's a crime.:rolleyes:


  • #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    http://www.irishstu.com/stublog/2011/06/30/calling-bull****-on-unpaid-interships/


  • #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    http://intern.jobbridge.ie/Default.aspx?q=B+fomdowzS8kaDnSlUDk1yW26DjUJdnNZmJvk4EsxDKnmmsSN00TwYG66FBNSOfLIeGBZEmprZQ0rsSTGOXFi4zfHqPe+IAcD0dVrJOVAcf/w79P6DXL0F+vwss2lcytJpsiayG9HXwO4aGPcIcZeZAVzPXsPtyFC807wVSW9kXaSGsQeWzZZj3DQk5EQ1Ns3x+5QA/SpfWzZqOKHwelKhdbAE4DUNl8rOxjNgoC7cA9VPIlGKxIBt6eFGLzA4pwQN/2o/3iESAwvo+lMu6gM7YiZjy8aX778TFbdV3ffhJGLyEJAkVa1/sNujoG0yklfkMGDI5sLq4qeAjNJFYry8rpE41MeisXdbXGKU1YXJzyP0e+Z//B1bMfoLTBVKy1CD6lujIsnFY3Sgg8FZlHmzRvlc2Jum5PYIHWJvMb+tQMAWYVDAuNTBMsy6EpPXSx+CrO8ACvuKjb4eXZ3My0JCRdk2kJ890K
    Field Sales/Support Engineer

    Description

    The intern will become fully familiar with the online classifieds industry with a particular focus on assisting Small Businesses utilise the web for marketing purposes. The candidate will also develop field sales skills as the focus will be the marketing of a strong Internet Marketing solution to the Car Dealers of Ireland, nationally. The candidate will also collect client requirements and communicate these back to the development team

    Skills Requirements

    Full driving licence essential (for at least 5 years). Field based opportunity requiring national travel every day to visit car dealers. Outgoing social personality who likes meeting people. A strong focus on delivering value for money to clients. Good communicator.

    Thats not an internship thats a traveling salesman job


  • #27
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    imagine doing this one - hiring people for companies while your on the dole

    http://intern.jobbridge.ie/Default.aspx?q=B+fomdowzS8kaDnSlUDk1yW26DjUJdnNZmJvk4EsxDKnmmsSN00TwbbCZL6L2S3uB8Cv0PX9B8ThWvmLRZj6MT/9DU4dYCSfLvIBVlZlKKM97riNUhM19qyuQGV1Hqw/Oo2LWGomJdyxMYTTG7h+GvstVdVDblqGbDq+FZQE3yCxqIvrJxG9mw0jAKYqFsOymOdYQDu4Ii24rsqhKoFYpXCJs6ACvXZXSkekaYCX4xCSqBspXh6CFjIGMJ7LaKT4qNB2rM4MtBd/O/zeP0/BATouGXJY+A1snL2zcRfdUCLpKR5BUUUsRDxfS+HtWAw2iLlwTapbVlGmb3tQ45tVKkYMcCIib9M0DeH+HQ4QfMqrWlBNdVwki9ig9M96t2pZdxXei2fSKVtxkFOYn5bHaA8+IzdSLwnJ5XRf+7jwq6Y1LiKMhr1Xx/k3IzdmG1l4Q634hFAZbkn8x3axDCs0QNNgJImP871l


  • #28
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Internships are fine for certain areas (accounting, programming and other IT roles etc.) but no unskilled position that will bring nothing experience wise to the candidate should be called an internship. People doing such work should just be paid for their labour.


  • #29
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    The internship scheme is a great example of a good idea that has been dreadfully executed by politicians and civil servants who are way too institutionalised to make rational decisions. The basic idea of trying to get people into employment via internships is a good one but why should the state be paying these interns when it is the companies that will benefit?

    If I was setting up a scheme like this, I would have the following rules in place:

    1. All interns must be paid minimum wage by the company taking them on.
    2. The internships being advertised must only be for positions that require some manner of qualification (prevents "washroom assistant" becoming an internship).
    3. The intern must be present with a contract of employment that lays out their entitlements.
    4. If a company takes on several interns, they must commit to hiring a set % of these at the end of the placement period as permanent staff or they must extend the intern's contract.

    That's what I can think off off hand. A scheme like that might result in less internships but they would be paid workers, generating tax and not costing the state a cent in welfare. Anyone like to add more to this?


  • #30
    beeftotheheels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    The internship scheme is a great example of a good idea that has been dreadfully executed by politicians and civil servants who are way too institutionalised to make rational decisions. The basic idea of trying to get people into employment via internships is a good one but why should the state be paying these interns when it is the companies that will benefit?

    If I was setting up a scheme like this, I would have the following rules in place:

    1. All interns must be paid minimum wage by the company taking them on.
    2. The internships being advertised must only be for positions that require some manner of qualification (prevents "washroom assistant" becoming an internship).
    3. The intern must be present with a contract of employment that lays out their entitlements.
    4. If a company takes on several interns, they must commit to hiring a set % of these at the end of the placement period as permanent staff or they must extend the intern's contract.

    That's what I can think off off hand. A scheme like that might result in less internships but they would be paid workers, generating tax and not costing the state a cent in welfare. Anyone like to add more to this?

    Even in the boom times many employers did not pay interns minimum wage, that defeats the concept of interns.

    Over the years my employer has taken on many, many interns (it is a standard program) who come in for the summer, or in some cases for almost a year, during which time they save us very little work and cost us, in the short term, because so much time and effort by qualified staff goes into training them up. They are paid, but they are not paid an awful lot.

    However, we do this, because a 3 month internship gives us a much better idea of who we want to recruit than a half hour interview, nothing more or less than that. The internship costs us, hiring the best staff benefits us.

    Some years, most interns get offered contracts, some years few get offered contracts, it is all down to how bright they are, how easily they learn, and how well they fit into the organization.

    For professional internships I think you will find that this is the norm. The interns will have none of the practical skills when they walk in the door required to do the job. So they get to learn professional skills, and if they're good enough they get a job offer. But you cannot expect this to work if you start pre-empting the system by presupposing that a percentage should be given job offers, or presupposing that they should be paid a certain wage because they will automatically be of value during their internship.

    Yes, if the internship was stacking shelves in Tesco I can see the presumption that they will be adding value from day one, if the internship is for a profession then this presumption is reversed.


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  • #31
    Inverse to the power of one!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 296 ✭✭Inverse to the power of one!


    donkey balls wrote: »
    When the FAS WPP scheme came out I saw an advert for a job were the employer stipulated that the person must have at least two years experience and be over 25yrs for insurance purpose:eek:,Now in order for a person to do that job and get trained up these days would be around 4/5k and then work for nothing.
    I know off a well known MNC who informed one of their employees that there job title would be changed along with a 17k pay drop yet still be doing the same work,Now this company posted Q1 profits of 3 bn and along with them taking over another contract were I heard from a good source that there was not much between the two tenders yet the company pays their staff half the amount in wages that the company who lost the contract pays their staff.
    IBEC the employers union must be falling over them selves using the R word as a means to beat employees T&Cs down to a bare minimum.

    It's absolutely fine IMO, let them ride the hole out of their employees.....BUT!

    The math will eventually add up when said employee finds that they can do the same for +20k USD in AUS and other countries and leaves, taking their skills with them.

    As with property, Irish employers think they can ignore the economics of the situation and will win anyway for some strange reason.....but economics always wins.....always!

    Gouge away lads, you'll only fcuk yourselves up! Pity you'll only add to the countries woes in the process.


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