Graduate Starting salaries - IT

Stark · 06-10-2005 9:25am #1

Heya, I'm not sure if this is okay, moderators feel free to delete as appropriate. I've just started working a job with the promise of "competitive salary", as in the salary I'd be getting would match what I'd get in similar companies. However the salary hasn't gone up this year to match the market and now they want me to come back with some company names and the equivalent salaries to help me press my case.

The company considers its key competitors to be :
Berlitz Global
Corel
Creative Labs
HP
Iona
Microsoft
Oracle
Sun Microsystems
Symantec
Xerox

Is there anyone working in the above companies who would know what the starting salary is? Any help would be greatly appreciated. You can PM me if there's an issue with posting starting salaries publicly.

finlma · 06-10-2005 9:41am

As a grad you can expect to start on around 25-27 as far as I know if it is competitive. If you want a good starting salary you want to go across the pond to England. Great money in London for a grad - I started on 30k sterling and that was a good few years ago.

rick_fantastic · 06-10-2005 9:49am

it really depends on what type of work your doing... what is ur job description?

have u graduated with degree or masters?

Stark · 06-10-2005 9:57am

I've graduated with a degree. I've also done a few months work with them on a contract though they're not going to take that into account from what I can see (they have to give all graduates a standard salary).

My job description is "Graduate Software Developer". Unfortunately, because it's the exact same salary for all graduates, the individual parts of my job description don't count. For example, I do a fair bit of J2EE programming (gained a lot of experience on my contract) but that doesn't get accounted for.

Anyway, we were verbally promised a salary increase as they haven't increased it in a few years and they realised their competitors paid more. However bureaucracy got in the way, and the increase didn't show up on our contract which our manager is currently pushing to get rectified. However, company names and figures speak loudly, so we were asked to do our own bit of research.

ianmc38 · 06-10-2005 10:12am

finlma wrote:

As a grad you can expect to start on around 25-27 as far as I know if it is competitive. If you want a good starting salary you want to go across the pond to England. Great money in London for a grad - I started on 30k sterling and that was a good few years ago.

Sorry don't let that fool you. 25-27k certainly isn't standard for a graduate. yes graduates can get this salary but its by no means an industry standard. Hewlett packard pay their technical Support staff 19-21k. Accenture pay better rates for tech support. They pay 100-120 per day, so up to 30k. A small development firm called Manitex i worked for started me on 30k straight after my Msc. So i'd say the range of 18-30k is what you can expect to earn.

ianmc38 · 06-10-2005 10:14am

microsoft start-off - 25k. Fair play to anyone that gets through their interview process.

Third_Echelon · 06-10-2005 10:44am

24k - 26k would be average basic wage starting off across the companies mentioned.

2 years ago I started on 25k with a grad position in SAP.

Stark · 06-10-2005 11:17am

That 25k for Microsoft figure doesn't sound right at all. What role is it for?

AARRRGH · 06-10-2005 1:52pm

ianmc38 wrote:

microsoft start-off - 25k. Fair play to anyone that gets through their interview process.

Not true on both counts.

I used to work for Microsoft. Their interviews are incredibily easy (you must understand: the staff Microsoft have in Ireland are not clever people.)

They pay crappy money starting off, BUT, it's very easy to very quickly be on 36k.

But... you will be doing mongo work and working with mongos. (Brain washed mongos I might add.)

Try Oracle instead. Clever and good money.

AARRRGH · 06-10-2005 1:55pm

finlma wrote:

As a grad you can expect to start on around 25-27 as far as I know

Seriously not true.

Why would someone pay a grad (who in reality knows absolutely nothing) 25 - 27k?

It makes no sense.

Slightly OY: I have a (excellent) programmer who I manage in Bulgaria. He is on 10k. This is a GREAT salary for him and he kicks ass. Why in the world would I want to hire a crap, egotistical Irish programmer for nearly three times that amount?

jank · 06-10-2005 2:57pm

dublindude wrote:

Seriously not true.

Why would someone pay a grad (who in reality knows absolutely nothing) 25 - 27k?

It makes no sense.

Slightly OY: I have a (excellent) programmer who I manage in Bulgaria. He is on 10k. This is a GREAT salary for him and he kicks ass. Why in the world would I want to hire a crap, egotistical Irish programmer for nearly three times that amount?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Thats why you can pay him that.....you know macro economics and all that...anyway back on topic

IBM pay 26K, and this was last year so it may be even gone up a bit.

Tech support would be around the 19k-24k but I wouldnt really call it a graduate job that needs 4 years of college to prepare for however because of the recent glut in the IT industry it was the only available means by graduates to gain "industrial" experience.

A proper graduate job average would be in the region of 23k to 27k, more if you are very lucky and/or very good.

There seems to be a big increase of these jobs last few months for graduates. Seems companies are starting to see that their systems cant run on legacy systems forever so are forking out money to train recent grads properly seeing as the upturn in the last year has taken more experienceed IT staff to other jobs that now seem beneeth them.

After this year the output of IT grads will fall hugely too thus increasing the demand for graduates for the nest few years. At the end of the day graduates just want a foot in the door, they can do the rest themsleves and these graduates are by far the best way to go about it.

Stark · 06-10-2005 6:22pm

jank wrote:

IBM pay 26K, and this was last year so it may be even gone up a bit.

IBM is where I'm working

After Extreme Blue, we were verbally promised a graduate salary increase, to at least 27k, possibly 28. However the contract we finally got (about 2 days before starting work) didn't reflect that. I don't want to be greedy, it's a bloody great place to work and I don't plan to leave even if they don't give us an increase. The problem is that, unlike other jobs where the pay rapidly increases as you gain experience, IBM is so big, awkward and bureaucratic that that doesn't happen. Therefore if we don't shout and scream now, we'll be stuck at what we're on for the next few years or until we leave the company (which I don't want to do). No such thing as a bonus or "perks" either.

dublindude wrote:

Try Oracle instead. Clever and good money.

Have you got a figure for starting salary? I worked in Oracle before for an internship and swore I'd never go back there. It was an awful place to work. The work was boring and monotonous as hell, the managers were ****wits and the people there were cliquey and unfriendly. Not like IBM where everyone, managers and colleagues alike are absolutely lovely and the work is fun and stimulating.

Civilian_Target · 06-10-2005 8:23pm

IBM pay €26,000 for extreme blue now?! When I started there - the XB interns were only getting €18,000.

I'd say €25k-€30k for the first year out of college is all you can hope to get - if you prove yourself to be good maybe you can make it up to €35,000 after the first year.

To be honest - €30k's a lot of money for anyone 1 year out of college - what the hell are you going to spend it on?!

AndyWarhol · 06-10-2005 8:30pm

ESB offered me €35k as a graduate engineer two years ago. I opted for the postgraduate route where I get €20k tax free.

You wouldn't even be able to get a mortgage for a lock up garage in Celbridge/Lucan on a €35k a year salary.

Aldi offer €52k a year + a fully expensed Audi A4, rising to €74k in two year's time on their graduate area manager program. I've got an interview at end of month though the stigma of having to tell your mates you work for Aldi!

Rew · 06-10-2005 9:00pm

I got high 30's starting out this year.

Stark · 06-10-2005 9:22pm

Civilian Target wrote:

IBM pay €26,000 for extreme blue now?! When I started there - the XB interns were only getting €18,000.

Sorry, post was a little ambiguous. EB was €21,000, up from €18,000 the year before. €18k was seriously taking the piss considering how much IBM gets out of it.

damnyanks · 06-10-2005 10:20pm

Work in London and you can get the equav of 45k with 1 or 2 investment banks. Thats assumeing you have some experience and more then one offer and know how to negotioate a better signing on fee

jank · 06-10-2005 11:26pm

The worst question of all in an interview is "What's your expected salary?"

Wish they would just say it as they have a idea what your worht anyway.
Like there isnt much of a difference between 24 and 26k in take home pay.

I got asked this recently and all I did was give a big long winding talk about why im worth it and I didnt even give a figure.

Eventually I said 26k which would be about right. Still think right now that I should have said 30k but that probably might have looked greedy.

Aldi offer €52k a year + a fully expensed Audi A4, rising to €74k in two year's time on their graduate area manager program. I've got an interview at end of month though the stigma of having to tell your mates you work for Aldi!

Werent you saying to me that Aldi work the **** out of you or was that Lidl?

AARRRGH · 07-10-2005 12:13am

AndyWarhol wrote:

ESB offered me €35k as a graduate engineer... Aldi offer €52k a year + a fully expensed Audi A4, rising to €74k in two year's time on their graduate area manager program

Bull-****ing-****.

??????????

http://www.aldi.ie/recruitment/recruitment_1.html - No where does this suggest it is a graduate programme. It is very obviously for experienced managers.

35k for a graduate in ESB? I assume you have a PhD and your father works for ESB, right?

Total nonsense...

AARRRGH · 07-10-2005 12:29am

Rew wrote:

I got high 30's starting out this year.

??????

High-30's for a graduate?

Where do you work?

FYI I work in recruitment. High-30's for a graduate DOES NOT EXIST.

What is with the extreme BS today?

Rew · 07-10-2005 8:06am

dublindude wrote:

??????

High-30's for a graduate?

Where do you work?

FYI I work in recruitment. High-30's for a graduate DOES NOT EXIST.

What is with the extreme BS today?

Id appricate it if you didn't rubish my salary claims just coz you havn't a clue.

You must do well in recruitment with those people skills of yours... :rolleyes:

BeardyGit · 07-10-2005 8:31am

I'm not so sure about these claims of high salary offers for recent graduates. I'm not saying some applicants won't be able to negotiate a good package for themselves but as a hiring manager I can tell you that the single factor that determines salary more than anything else is the practical experience a graduate has gained through part-time or placement experience.

I have recently hired two people to work on my team - 1 has only just started studying part time for his 3rd level qualification (not unlike me!) and the other graduated with excellent results from DCU. The first guy has 7 years real experience since leaving school, the second has spent 4 years studying since he finished secondary school. To be honest, the difference between their salaries is quite a lot and I really don't think that in 3 years time the graduate will be earning any more than the first guy - Even with his papers. Experience is what counts in my line of business so the guy without a degree at this point has the benefit of proven technology experience 'on the frontline' so to speak. He will ALWAYS have that feather in his cap, no matter where he goes after this.

All that said, I don't think it's unreasonable for a graduate to expect and receive a salary in the region of 26-28k - You won't receive it with some larger corporates but if you look towards established indiginous businesses you'll likely get it if you can demonstrate a desire to stay with them for a few years.

Gil

Rew · 07-10-2005 8:54am

Well I didnt spend all my time in college studying and did get alot of practical experience/jobs. I got a 2.1 in my degree and I (nearly) have an MSc.

I negoated them up on their initial offer and I get benifits on top of my salary.

Seriously though why would I bother my arse to BS you on my slaery figure?

BeardyGit · 07-10-2005 9:02am

I'm not saying that you're full of sh1t here Rew. What I'm saying is that the only way a graduate will swing a very good salary (in terms of current market standard) is to demonstrate some very relevant practical industry experience has been gained during the time you were studying.

The problem for grads is that the ball is still in the prospective employers court when it comes to determining your worth. An offer will be made and if you feel you're being undervalued you either present a valid argument for an increase in base salary offering or you walk away. The valuation is their call - The decision to accept it or fight for an increase is yours - Just make sure you have something tangible to reinforce your request for an increase or you WILL come across as being greedy and jeapordise any future dealings with that hiring manager.

Most of us will have a certain amount of extra to pay for really talented candidates - But just because it's there doesn't mean every 'successful' applicant will get any of it. If you have something up your sleeve then use it - But don't bluff.

AARRRGH · 07-10-2005 9:10am

Rew wrote:

Id appricate it if you didn't rubish my salary claims just coz you havn't a clue.

You must do well in recruitment with those people skills of yours... :rolleyes:

Great response!

I still don't believe you on getting high 30's as a first job/graduate job. It's simply not practical/makes absolutely no sense.

I only know of one company who does this, and they are an oil company.

Fair play if you got this, but really, it should not happen.

ianmc38 · 07-10-2005 9:23am

I used to work for Microsoft

When was this? In what role? Name?

Their interviews are incredibily easy (you must understand: the staff Microsoft have in Ireland are not clever people

I'm not going to flame but that is a load of pony. Perhaps you did tech support for them, but anyone who's interviewed for localisation positions or graduate programme will know this is pure waffle. 3 rounds of interviews for a job. Yeah really easy, they're not selective at all. Hire all the idiots that make it through 3 rounds of extremely technical interviews.

They pay crappy money starting off, BUT, it's very easy to very quickly be on 36k.

Again waffle, 1 of my friends started in Microsoft recently on 25k, graduate position. Pay rates do rise quickly though.

But... you will be doing mongo work and working with mongos. (Brain washed mongos I might add.)

<sigh>

mountainyman · 07-10-2005 9:50am

22K would be an OK starting graduate salary. Maximum 28K

madramor · 07-10-2005 9:53am

Rew wrote:

I got high 30's starting out this year.

Rew wrote:

Well I didnt spend all my time in college studying and did get alot of practical experience/jobs.

so did you have previous jobs or are you just starting
your first job

Rew wrote:

I got a 2.1 in my degree

with the low standard of todays degree courses a 2:1
just ain't that good.

Where i work graduate package is:
salary 18K
after 6 months 20k
after 1 year 22k
+ vivas, 300 bonus, 2 training courses per year, home broadband
then salary negotiations yearly

we got hundreds of applicants for these jobs, with the salary
clearly advertised, we even got people who graduated 2 years
ago and couldn't find a job.lots of 1:1s

I don't believe your %37% figure.
1:
What sector is the company in
2:
what sort of company is it(multinational,small,foreign,etc..)
3:
did you discuss your pay increases
graduate salaries usually rise by 30-50% in 2 years of graduating

Its just not fesible for a compnay to pay a graduate that much.

Do you work for the compnay that does PPARS?

jank · 07-10-2005 9:55am

Seems that the average is 25k but let me tell you one thing

I know of someone who worked in IBM for 12 months for the usual 26k salary. After not even a year with the company he left for another job in Cork for a 37k salary.

Pretty damm good for a clueless graduate who knows nothing!!

He was good at what he was doing but nothing special really.

ianmc38 · 07-10-2005 10:01am

mountainyman wrote:

22K would be an OK starting graduate salary. Maximum 28K

No i started on 30k in my 1st graduate job, but that is alot higher than average.

madramor · 07-10-2005 10:09am

jank wrote:

Seems that the average is 25k but let me tell you one thing

I know of someone who worked in IBM for 12 months for the usual 26k salary. After not even a year with the company he left for another job in Cork for a 37k salary.

Pretty damm good for a clueless graduate who knows nothing!!

He was good at what he was doing but nothing special really.

he would learn more in that 1 year than 4 in college

ibm are very respected

FrankGrimes · 07-10-2005 10:18am

I work for a large multinational consultancy firm (IBM would regard them as one of their main competitors in this space).

Starting salary for all graduates is now 29k. After first year all graduates who have made the cut (its rare someone doesnt hack it as the interview process is so tight) move to 35.5k. After that annual reviews are performance based. I am on 45k now after 23 months in the job, and based on my performance ratings am expecting to go to 52k in the next yearly review.

jank · 07-10-2005 10:25am

I work for a large multinational consultancy firm

Accenture!?

MicraBoy · 07-10-2005 10:27am

I know a few people who have worked in IBM. And the common theme that seems to run through any work conversations with them is that IBM are extremely tight fisted with the salaries.

red vex · 07-10-2005 10:29am

madramor wrote:

with the low standard of todays degree courses a 2:1
just ain't that good.

Thats a load of crap.

20k to 26k is what ive seen as grad salaries, theres always exceptions though

Anyone got any suggestions on how to get decent experience when noone wants to hire graduates.

madramor · 07-10-2005 10:42am

1:
entry points IT to degree courses are virtually
non existent

2:
so many degree courses that theres not enough good
lecturers to teach on them.

3:
a lot of colleged rushed to get a IT degree course
going and created very poor courses.

4:
they are letting people who fail their exams stay in
the courses.
Fact in the CA course in DCU in 2001 so many people
failed their first year programming exam repeats,
that they had to go in for an interview with their
lecturer and go through the exam paper that they failed
to see if the lecturer thought they new enough to proceed
to second year eventhough they failed the exam twice.
I know this for a fact told by a lecturer in 2001 so who
knows if it goes on every year.

Thats why the standard of todays degree courses are s**t

red vex wrote:

Thats a load of crap.

any chance you have an intelligent arguement as to why thats
a load of crap.

Rew · 07-10-2005 11:08am

madramor wrote:

so did you have previous jobs or are you just starting
your first job

with the low standard of todays degree courses a 2:1
just ain't that good.

I don't believe your %37% figure.
1:
What sector is the company in
2:
what sort of company is it(multinational,small,foreign,etc..)
3:
did you discuss your pay increases
graduate salaries usually rise by 30-50% in 2 years of graduating

Its just not fesible for a compnay to pay a graduate that much.

Do you work for the compnay that does PPARS?

I saw the peole that got 1.1's and I wouldn't let em near a computer. I had technical interviews as well as HR ones. HR manager is extreamly well qualified so it wasn't a mistake on their part. My MSc is research not taught.

I know guys with a niche MSc who started in the 40's.

Other jobs were work placements and summer jobs. I have a pay review once a year like everyone else, my first one comes up in about 9 months (from when I started).

Im costing less then the previous guy and doing a better job of it so thats how they can afford me.

We dont do PPARS

Guys I have no good reason to lie about my salary.

red vex · 07-10-2005 11:24am

I was in that class. Failure rate for programming in both semester1 & 2 wasnt overly high. The issue that you were reffering to was one exam in continous assessment. I was a contoversial test that a lot of people failed and because people cant pass the year without passing continous assesment a review was made.

1 The people currently graduating from CA in DCU this year entered when the points were 395. The graduates who entered on the 300 points cap wont be graduating for another 2 years

2 I dont see much of a lecturer turnover for CA. I dont see your argument here

3 Similar to above

4 Ive seen no evidence of this yet. Dropout/failure rates in Computing courses is still enormous. I cant speak for other courses but it is in CA

jank · 07-10-2005 11:53am

madramor wrote:

1:entry points IT to degree courses are virtually
non existent

Yes but 4-5 years ago they were much higher these are the grads that are out there now looking for work.

madramor wrote:

2:
so many degree courses that theres not enough good
lecturers to teach on them.

This is true with more or less every sector as there are so many more courses now then say even 8 years ago

madramor wrote:

3:a lot of colleged rushed to get a IT degree course
going and created very poor courses.

A lot of colleges had some sort of IT course going since the 80's just that they diversived what they taught to include more modern things like IT in education, networking, game design etc.

madramor wrote:

4:they are letting people who fail their exams stay in
the courses.
Fact in the CA course in DCU in 2001 so many people
failed their first year programming exam repeats,
that they had to go in for an interview with their
lecturer and go through the exam paper that they failed
to see if the lecturer thought they new enough to proceed
to second year eventhough they failed the exam twice.
I know this for a fact told by a lecturer in 2001 so who
knows if it goes on every year.

Thats why the standard of todays degree courses are s**t

Man that is bad if it is true. The HETAC are there to provide a standard to be adhered to.

I can tell you that in my degree if you fail, you fail thats that and sometimes there would be a good 30-40% repeating a hard subject. So its not true in all cases.

I started out in first year with 81 class mates. When we graduated my class consisted of about 34 from that group and another 3-4 of students who failed a year.
2 got a first class honour, around 9/10 got a 2:1 and 15ish got 2:2. The rest, a sizable proporation got a pass degree.

This was when my course had a 380 points to get into it. Most 420+. So are we all just thick or was the course hard and a challenge.
If you came out of my course with a good honours then clearly you know something and are a capable graduate with IT.

Clearly there was no drop in standards to let people pass for the sake of it, so you cant tar all courses with the same brush.

Julesie · 07-10-2005 12:22pm

Im currently working for IBM on a part time basis while i finish the last year of my degree. As an undergrad i get their standard 17k package pro rated for the hours i work. The salary seems to be the same regardless what area of the business you work in be it (Finance/IT/Consulting etc.) While they are a great company to work for and very accomodating i certainly wouldnt be raving about their salaries. If i was to stay on after i graduate i would be expecting something around 26/28k. A classmate of mine has just signed a contract with an investment bank in london for 35k Sterling which is approx. 50k in euro, so if you are willing to travel there are certainly better offers out there. Personally a move to london doesnt appeal to me but i'll be looking domestically this year as i believe the year you graduate is your strongest year to secure a decent job.

seamus · 07-10-2005 12:42pm

Guys, there seems to be a lot of confusing Grad jobs with jobs advertised for graduates.

Any company that runs a graduate programme, hires in people to get somewhere specific in IT, to start them on the road to a career. You get hired into a company that is actually about IT, IBM for example, who train you to become a programmer, a network design engineer, and plenty of other fancy names. There is usually a specific intake each year, and specific method of applying, and strict requirements in terms of the quality of your degree.

A company who advertises a job for a "graduate" is not necessarily looking for any of the above. It has a job for someone with no experience, it's not necessarily a perennial position, and you're being hired to do that job, with the same promotion/advancement prospects as everyone else. You're not being hired with the specific goal of kickstarting your career.

Grad programmes in IT companies typically pay good money for someone starting out with a BSc degree and no experience - around 25k. Graduate "positions" in non-IT companies don't pay so well, unless you get lucky, between 18k-23k typically. It's extremely rare that an IT company will have incidental positions come up at the graduate level, since most holes are plugged by the annual intake.

Civilian_Target · 07-10-2005 12:43pm

Stark wrote:

Sorry, post was a little ambiguous. EB was €21,000, up from €18,000 the year before. €18k was seriously taking the piss considering how much IBM gets out of it.

Not really. Think how much the graduate gets out of it! You get the opportunity to mess around with some really high-powered gear for a few months and do an extremely interesting job. It wouldn't be something you do for the money, if you ask me, you'd do it for the experience. It's probably going to add about €3k-4k a year to your average salary for the next 5 years or so (if you choose not to work for IBM that is), so I wouldn't complain if I were you.

deadfingers · 07-10-2005 1:20pm

I had a few mates in IBM they were promised this and that but they ended up doing the same old stuff day after day .....

red vex · 07-10-2005 1:26pm

it still looks better on your CV than something like tech support

AARRRGH · 07-10-2005 2:31pm

ianmc38 wrote:

When was this? In what role? Name?

I'm not going to flame but that is a load of pony. Perhaps you did tech support for them, but anyone who's interviewed for localisation positions or graduate programme will know this is pure waffle. 3 rounds of interviews for a job. Yeah really easy, they're not selective at all. Hire all the idiots that make it through 3 rounds of extremely technical interviews.

Again waffle, 1 of my friends started in Microsoft recently on 25k, graduate position. Pay rates do rise quickly though.

<sigh>

You really have no idea wat you're talking about.

I worked for Microsoft. I was a Build Engineer. The interview was simple ( a few technical questions, what's the problem? I'm an engineer - right?)

The people in Microsoft are NOT smart. I still have lots of friends there - they will tell you this yourself. It's where non-technical people get technical jobs.

My starting salary was 24k. I already had experience.

If you want a difficult interview, get a Linux based development role in AOL. My interview was 2.5 hours switching from Technical to HR to Technical to HR. Seriously demanding.

ianmc38 · 07-10-2005 2:39pm

dublindude wrote:

The people in Microsoft are NOT smart.

yeah the biggest and most successful computer corporation in the world. Pretty stupid bunch alright. Don't have a clue what they're doing.

AARRRGH · 07-10-2005 2:43pm

ianmc38 wrote:

yeah the biggest and most successful computer corporation in the world. Pretty stupid bunch alright. Don't have a clue what they're doing.

Sorry let me rephrase - the people in Microsoft IRELAND. We are, after all, just a localisation centre.

AndyWarhol · 07-10-2005 2:54pm

dublindude wrote:

Bull-****ing-****.

??????????

http://www.aldi.ie/recruitment/recruitment_1.html - No where does this suggest it is a graduate programme. It is very obviously for experienced managers.

35k for a graduate in ESB? I assume you have a PhD and your father works for ESB, right?

Total nonsense...

No it's not. ESB Networks offered me €35 with a primary degree in electronic eng.

Also about the Aldi program - it's the area manager program and they are taking graduates with the right qualities.

daveirl · 07-10-2005 6:54pm

This post has been deleted.

Rew · 07-10-2005 10:36pm

Accenture and the like really annoy me because they require minimum LC points. The LC is a joke and ill never work for anyone asks me what my point were, its just petty and irelevent after you have a degree/masters.

madramor · 08-10-2005 10:09am

Rew wrote:

Accenture and the like really annoy me because they require minimum LC points. The LC is a joke and ill never work for anyone asks me what my point were, its just petty and irelevent after you have a degree/masters.

shows how much they value irish degrees

Graduate Starting salaries - IT

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