The Drugs issue

[Jackass]

Hello to all!
I would like to ask people in general what there opinions are on the legalisation of marijuana as a legitimate political issue.

As you may have guessed, i am a marijuana user, and probably the stereotypical user aswell, as i am a 20yr old student!
I'm not a very politically minded person, although i do like to form an opinion on current affairs, and in light of the recent governmental anti-drugs campaign, they specifically target marijuana as a core issue.

I am very frustrated by this, as i feel this country is making no progress into accepting more "riskè" aspects of society, such as this soft drug!

Without wanting to sound like a broken record, could somebody explain how this drug (marijuana) is illegal, when it has no recorded fatalities world wide, as apposed to a much stronger drug which is legal, namely alcohol, which kills hundreds of people through direct use every year in this country, it is also a depressant which causes suicide in teenagers whilst under the influence, and has this country in a state of free for all street fights every saturday night all over the land!

They argue also that this drug leads onto harder drugs, it's what people start on.......
Actually i think youll find every user smoked ciggarettes and drank a pint before they smoked marijuana, and if it did lead to harder drugs, what do you expect?
Users have to associate with drug dealers instead of chemists or cafes to get it, and they will always try and push harder drugs on to influental youngsters thanks to our governments stance on the issue!

And furthermore, while the drunk people are out on our streets smashing windows, shouting abuse, hitting, stabbing, and robbing eachother, the marijuana user is sitting at home with a couple of friends either listening to music, watching tele, or is in deep conversation about some otherwise irrelivant subject!
How are we the criminals? Thats not dangourous! it's a relaxant!!!
when i smoke, the last thing i am going to do is start a fight or hurl abuse! I am more likely to smile and be pleaseant to complete strangers!
Even medically it has benifits as long as it is not smoked, and when it is smoked it is less harmfull to the body than 20 cigarettes and 10 pints that the drinkers are taking ( thats not fact, im speculating)

So i am massively interersted in hearing some feedback, and i would like people to talk about any flaws they see in my arrgument as well as hearing the positive responses (hopefully there are some!!):)

Thank you for your time and comments, its an issue i am eager to hear debated.

Éomer of Rohan

could somebody explain how this drug (marijuana) is illegal, when it has no recorded fatalities world wide

Is there anything to support that Marijuana has a record of no fatalities world wide? Obviously excusing the people who were executed for having the stuff

They argue also that this drug leads onto harder drugs

Point of fact, they argue, up here at least, that there is nothing in Cannabis to make people try harder drugs such as Cocaine - yet I know that nearly every one of my friends who smoke cannabis have tried cocaine by virtue of the fact that they, as a result of knowing people who can get them cannabis, know people who can get them cocaine - it is that simple.

And furthermore, while the drunk people are out on our streets smashing windows, shouting abuse, hitting, stabbing, and robbing eachother, the marijuana user is sitting at home with a couple of friends either listening to music, watching tele, or is in deep conversation about some otherwise irrelivant subject!

I would like to make the distinction between alcohol abuse and enjoying a drink, possibly consequently getting drunk. Socialising every weekend and we all head off to a bar for a drink, maybe to watch whatever footie match is on (more usually midweek in that respect) or just to sit in a group, drink, sing, laugh and generally find things more funny than they would otherwise be - much like people on marijuana. The other side to that coin which is what you highlight, is also perfectly attainable for people who do too much pot or whatever, I am sure; young people stealing to pay for pot and so on, or getting their knees done because they failed to pay up on time; though I concur that the last is a reason to legalise pot - which I am in favour of to answer your question.

rubadub

"could somebody explain how this drug (marijuana) is illegal"
yes, brown envelopes were passed around the US in the 1930s as hemp fibres were a threat to the new chemical industry, in particular dupont. hemp fibre was a threat to sales of nylon so they paid for it to be made illegal. a very good propaganda campaign was arranged, it was mostly non-whites who smoked it so the users had no say in the matter, the whites who did have a say were told that non-whites were going to go mad on marijuana and rape white women. it was perfect timing as it had just started to break into white culture and was stopped before it could attain "respectable" users who would be listened to.

the reasons prohibition didnt work and why alcohol could not be effectively made illegal are all the more reason it SHOULD be illegal. there are no strung out cannabis junkies who will do anything for a fix. imagine if nicotine was made illegal. nicotine is more addictive than heroin, heroin addicts mug grannies for a fix, i wonder what a nictoine addict would do. when alcohol was made illegal people went to gangsters for a supply, hard drugs enjoyed a huge sale increase in prohibition times since they were often cheaper than illicit alcohol.

rubadub

"Is there anything to support that Marijuana has a record of no fatalities world wide? "

is there anything not to support it? dont try and prove a negative. AFAIK there is no medically documented case of death due to cannabis products throughout the world. but of course it does cause lung cancer which kills millions, so would smoking lettuce but it is still legal

bonkey

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Point of fact, they argue, up here at least, that there is nothing in Cannabis to make people try harder drugs such as Cocaine - yet I know that nearly every one of my friends who smoke cannabis have tried cocaine by virtue of the fact that they, as a result of knowing people who can get them cannabis, know people who can get them cocaine - it is that simple.

Which is why legalisation advocates suggest that by allowing you to purchase your marijuana legally - in a store, from a shopkeeper - will mean that you are not dealing with the same people who deal in the rest of it all.

i.e. Marijuana is a gateway drug because it is illegal. It is not illegal because it is a gateway drug.

jc

rubadub

Originally posted by bonkey
Which is why legalisation advocates suggest that by allowing you to purchase your marijuana legally - in a store, from a shopkeeper - will mean that you are not dealing with the same people who deal in the rest of it all.

i.e. Marijuana is a gateway drug because it is illegal. It is not illegal because it is a gateway drug.

jc

exactly. alcohol became a "gateway" drug during prohibition, which is one of the reasons alcohol was made legal again. more reason why cannabis should be legal. it made perfect sense in the 1930's but not now. even the gardai have stopped labelling it a "gateway drug" as it is such an absurd illogical notion and leaves them open to ridicule.

most alcoholics started on milk..

davelerave

Originally posted by rubadub
"Is there anything to support that Marijuana has a record of no fatalities world wide? "

is there anything not to support it? dont try and prove a negative. AFAIK there is no medically documented case of death due to cannabis products throughout the world. but of course it does cause lung cancer which kills millions, so would smoking lettuce but it is still legal

it doesn't have to be smoked ,also it can be bought by post these days easily

simu

Well, Jackass, I agree with u completely.

I've been to Holland and I found it so cool that you could go buy grass (reasonably priced, good quality) without feeling worried that you were giving support to criminal organisations.

I think that for most of my generation(I'm in my 20s), cannabis use is not a big deal.

However, many older ppl fail to distinguish between different drugs. Once they hear the word drug, all they think is "Ban, ban, ban!".

So, I don't see Irish legislation pertaining to cannabis use changing anytime soon. This and the fact that many young ppl don't bother voting means it's safer for politicians to promote conservative policies towards cannabis and other issues if they want to be re-elected.

rubadub

Originally posted by simu
Well, Jackass, I agree with u completely.

I've been to Holland and I found it so cool that you could go buy grass (reasonably priced, good quality) without feeling worried that you were giving support to criminal organisations.

cannabis is not legal in holland, a common misconception. hash is also imported from many countries by criminal organisations into holland and sold. the growers who supply coffee shops are indeed criminals, and they do get arrested if caught. however they are not condsidered scum who are out to kill your children with drugs, like a grower would be treated by newspapers here. an analogy would be a farmer making poitin over here being caught

Beëlzebooze

they are criminals in the sense that they smuggle contraband, and dodge the tax man.

rcunning03

it doesn't have to be smoked ,also it can be bought by post these days easily

---

[snip]
Please, don't ask how you can obtain illegal narcotics on this board. We can't and won't be responsible for any illegal activity that takes place here.
[/snip]

on the point raised if the government legalised and taxed drugs they could afford a state of the art healthcare and infrastructure system and the savings on garda resources alone would be immense

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by [Jackass]
before they smoked marijuana, and if it did lead to harder drugs, what do you expect?

you expect people who try dope to go onto harder stuff?

Hobart

Originally posted by rubadub
there are no strung out cannabis junkies who will do anything for a fix

You should re-phrase that to none you know.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by rubadub
there are no strung out cannabis junkies who will do anything for a fix.

They generally couldn’t be arsed doing anything at all... :rolleyes:

davelerave

Originally posted by rcunning03
it doesn't have to be smoked ,also it can be bought by post these days easily

---

where ? how ? i know where to buy seeds online but do you know how to buy proper grass not the herbal **** because if its legal in the united states of christianity it must be crap

on the point raised if the government legalised and taxed drugs they could afford a state of the art healthcare and infrastructure system and the savings on garda resources alone would be immense

yes i do ,there are places where you just pay by credit card ,secure delivery etc. ,range of product but obviously i can say no more than that here as i don't advocate it's use

simu

Thanx rubadub, didn't know that.

Found following info

In the late 1990s there were some interesting reactions within the Dutch government regarding the cannabis proposal. Nothing has actually happened but there have been lots of discussions and lots of ideas. The former Minister of Justice said she wanted ‘to regulate the back door’, meaning the provision of cannabis in coffee shops. The ink on her paper was still wet when Mr Chirac, the French president, started to say all kinds of negative things about Holland. As a result, nothing came from the proposal apart from a more restrictive policy such as the five gram rule and fewer coffee shops. In 1993, most of the cannabis was produced by students and housewives who wanted to make a little extra money. It is now a profession and is becoming more and more controlled by criminal elements, which has led to a proposal by the Dutch Drug Policy Foundation for a more restrictive policy, especially on production.


at



http://www.drugtext.org/library/articles/lap.htm


So, without international cooperation, I guess it's tricky to remove such inconsistencies.

Methinks we need a Europe-wide rethink on the issue, but as to this happening any time soon :mad:

Captain Trips

What about chronic amotivation and induced psychosis? Yes it actually does happen, and interferes with the users life, and the lives of those immediately around them, and also makes the tax-payer (the 99% majority that pay for the health service and the majority who don't use illegal narcotics) pay for rehab, employment schemes, inpatient stays, detoxification because there is nothing to say that marijuana improves your ability to contribute to society, rather the converse that all it can do is
a) make you feel good. Good for you. Feel good.
b) cost more in treatment - because at some stage, you *will* want treatment. And because you are Irish, you won't want to pay for it. The magical roundabout will pay for it so you can get your head together.

We already have two legal drugs that cost a fortune to take care of (nicotine, alcohol). Why do we need a third? Would this actually improve society?

Would it make Ireland so cool like Amsterdam - with the 3x crime increase since it was introduced? After all, Alaska and Sweden were totally wrong to make marijuana illegal again after trying legalisation for 10-15 years.

Irish people have demonstrated successfully, of course, that they can moderate consumption of drugs so as not to interfere with their or other's ability to work, live safely.

Welcome to magic land. Cannabis is legal. It's great because it makes you feel *good*!

rubadub

Originally posted by Captain Trips

We already have two legal drugs that cost a fortune to take care of (nicotine, alcohol). Why do we need a third? Would this actually improve society?

Would it make Ireland so cool like Amsterdam - with the 3x crime increase since it was introduced? After all, Alaska and Sweden were totally wrong to make marijuana illegal again after trying legalisation for 10-15 years.

Irish people have demonstrated successfully, of course, that they can moderate consumption of drugs so as not to interfere with their or other's ability to work, live safely.

Welcome to magic land. Cannabis is legal. It's great because it makes you feel *good*!

do you think alcohol and nicotine should be illegal then? why have 2 why not one or none at all. whats with all these painkiller drugs wouldnt just morphine or paracetomol do the trick? why should people have all these choices...

has crime really increased by 3 since its decriminalisation in holland, which crimes? any links?
im sure crime has increased in most major cities since the 1970s

juno75

Leagilize EVERYTHING.

NOW.

Cut the legs out from under organised crime.

Control quality and quantity of substances.

Free up massive amounts of police/leagle time.

History has proved time and agian that prohibition can never work.

You cannot alter the human condition with policies.
Well I suppose you can but thats not right.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

MrNuked

It ****s your head up after a while. It makes you dead passive. It makes you dead aggressive and irritable while sober if you spend more time stoned than not. It is extremely bad for your lungs. It turns you into a selfish lazy self-absorbed baxtard. It makes you wreckless. It is more addictive than cigarettes. If a heavy smoker smokes joints - ones without tobacco or bongs or whatever - they won;t miss fags too much. If a heavy cannibis user smokes cigarettes they will miss cannibis.
Amsterdam is a ****hole and anyone who doesn;t spend their entire time there off their tits can see that.
The problem is that what we are told about the stuff is far different to what we experience when we actually try it - therefore we tend to assume all the warnings are a load of ****e.

Note that I'm talking about heavy use in everything I say here. Occasional use is a different kettle of fish, and not too bad at all. Plus it effects people in different ways.

It's a sensitizing drug as well as a sedative. Immediate sensations become stronger which causes a shifting of priorities. You care less about say, being nice to people you like, and more about sitting on a couch listening to weird music and eating. Or else you just slide off into a fantasy world.

rubadub

Originally posted by MrNuked
It is more addictive than cigarettes.

yes theres lots of medical evidence to back that one up.

nicotine is the most addictive substance known to man including heroin and crack cocaine. cannabis has never been proved to be addictive. it has never and will never be proved to be non-addictive since you cant prove it, just as you cannot prove that lettuce is non addictive

bonkey

Originally posted by MrNuked
It makes you dead aggressive and irritable while sober if you spend more time stoned than not.

...

Note that I'm talking about heavy use in everything I say here.

You're talking way past "heavy use" and well into the realms of "abuse". If you knew someone who was under the effects of alcohol more often than not, you wouldnt call them a "heavy drinker". Youd call them a wino or an alcoholic.

Use and Abuse are completely seperate issues. Every single problem mentioned to do with canabis so far is either dealing with people who have conditions which the drug exacerbates, or people who would be classified as "substance abusers" even were the stuff legal.

jc

vasch_ro

Some of the effects are as


"Risks - Many people consider cannabis to be a relatively safe drug. But new research shows that long-term users can find it hard to control their use of the drug and may become addicted. Smoking cannabis increases the risk of heart disease and cancers such as lung cancer, and may also affect fertility. Cannabis use may trigger schizophrenia in vulnerable people. In Ireland it is the second most common drug found in the systems of 'drunk' drivers, after alcohol."

Taken from http://www.drugsinfo.ie/a_z.htm

I think it is very easy to say legalise Cannabis, with out really thinking about it , what age 18 yrs and over (like alcohol supposedly) , who would sell it , how much could be sold from what out lets , I also think it would set a precedent for other drugs and their legalisation

I would would be against leagalistaion of Cannabis at the moment , no one post on the thread has managed to convince me to change my mind yet

MrNuked

"It is more addictive than cigarettes. "

yes theres lots of medical evidence to back that one up.

nicotine is the most addictive substance known to man including heroin and crack cocaine. cannabis has never been proved to be addictive. it has never and will never be proved to be non-addictive since you cant prove it, just as you cannot prove that lettuce is non addictive

I'm speaking from experience here, and know plenty of people with experience who would agree with me.
There's even physical withdrawal symptoms. If you stop smoking it after smoking for a while your lungs fill up with dirty phlegm and you get sick.
So ridicule me if you like I don't give a ****e if you want to smoke it or not. I have proven that it's addictive in the sense that I smoked it a lot for periods and when I'd stop I'd crave it.

Typedef

On topic.

Hash, is something that 'can' be abused, but, is readily obtainable to children, much more obtainable then alochol.

If marijuana was legalised, it would be more difficult to obtain for children and it would be an entity that would not conrtibute to crime.

However, what would happen is that more people would try the drug, since it would be legitimised (morally) by being legal.

If a contraint on how much one could consume over a given period were introduced then yes, I'd support legalisation.

On another level I worry that legalisation would lead to a generation of people who are ill prepaired for the duration of immediate after effects, being sucked into a cycle of psychological dependance on hashish.

Still, even though I personally no longer use hashish and have no plans to ever use it again, legalisation would make it more difficult to obtain to the young, keep revenue from criminals and add to tax coffers.

I still think the after effects of hashish on short term memory and overall lucidness (after the high has worn off) are too prolonged, so, some form of strain who's after effect turn-around time would be analagous to that of alochol, would be a proposition I would accept for legalisation.

rubadub

Originally posted by MrNuked
I'm speaking from experience here, and know plenty of people with experience who would agree with me.
There's even physical withdrawal symptoms. If you stop smoking it after smoking for a while your lungs fill up with dirty phlegm and you get sick.
So ridicule me if you like I don't give a ****e if you want to smoke it or not. I have proven that it's addictive in the sense that I smoked it a lot for periods and when I'd stop I'd crave it.

i'll stick with published medical journals on the subject thanks.

theres similar physical withdrawl symptoms if you stop smoking lettuce too. i suggest you eat it if worried. my granny gave up eating chips and when she did stop for a long period she craved chips. the medical definition of "addictive" is obviously different than what you may take it to mean

Dangerousdave

Originally posted by MrNuked
So ridicule me if you like I don't give a ****e if you want to smoke it or not. I have proven that it's addictive in the sense that I smoked it a lot for periods and when I'd stop I'd crave it.

Wrong. It is the nicotine from the tobacco in your splif that makes it addictive. Cannabis should be legalised. More people in England smoke cannabis than in Holland, where it was legal. And Amsterdam is NOT a sh1thole. I've been there a couple of times myself and it is nicer than any city in England I have been to, especially for the size of it.

Captain Trips

I thought it was a ****hole, or at least the centre areas around the train station, etc., . Very scummy, dirty. You move out to the areas without the cafes and it's a beautiful country.

bonkey

Originally posted by Captain Trips
You move out to the areas without the cafes and it's a beautiful country.

Never knew Amsterdam was a country

jc

I thought it was a ****hole, or at least the centre areas around the train station, etc., . Very scummy, dirty. You move out to the areas without the cafes and it's a beautiful country.

sounds a bit like ireland, don't u think? or just about any european city.

Wrong. It is the nicotine from the tobacco in your splif that makes it addictive. Cannabis should be legalised.

If you smoke pure weed, or hash through a bong, or spliff without any tobacco, then there are no physical addictions involved. Like with anything we do, depending on the persons mental health, a degree of emotional/mental addiction can develop. However remember these people can get addicted to suger, or milk in just the same way.

There's even physical withdrawal symptoms. If you stop smoking it after smoking for a while your lungs fill up with dirty phlegm and you get sick.

Thats dependent on the degree on which you smoke. Most of the people i know are irregular smokers. We smoke the weekends away, rather than go to the pub. The weeks themselves are clean. I don't suffer from not smoking hash. However if i gave up the cigarrettes, then yes, i would suffer a period of physical discomfort.

However, what would happen is that more people would try the drug, since it would be legitimised (morally) by being legal

Most kids i know have tried hash at one stage or another. In fact i tell my little cousins to try hash, rather than try speed or take an E. Hash has been readily purchasable for the last twenty years. I tried my first joint at ten, and believe me, i didn't know the dealers. I knew of them however.

Hash is everywhere. Making it legal would just make it safer for everyone concerned. No more hiding while smoking, for fear of being caught. Regulating the type of hash available would increase the quality of the hash thats imported, and no longer would the hash be too brittle, & dry.

I say legalise it. I'm not a heavy hash smoker, but i do like the odd joint.

Btw, i've been to amsterdam twice. once as a smoker, and once not. And its the safest city i've been in so far. Walking around the red-light district stoned out of my brains and no trouble whatsoever. The people are wonderful, and the pubs are clean & vibrant. Can you really say the same about Dublin?