The Drugs issue

rubadub

amsterdam is not the only place in holland either. many other towns have beautiful coffee shops far nicer than in amsterdam. just like ireland has nice little relaxed pubs outside of dublin. no dodgy types hanging around which most major cities have,
i am more worried walking through dublin which i know backwards than walking in amsterdam at night

In 1988, the DEA's (Drug Enforcement Agency's) own judge, Francis L. Young concluded that, "In its natural form, marijuana is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man." He also stated that, "in strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many foods we commonly consume." This, after hearing evidence from both sides of a case between NORML (National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws) and the DEA; he recommended that the DEA administrator reschedule marijuana. The DEA administrator ignored him and didn't have to explain why, even though evidence showed that a person would, "have to consume nearly 1,500 pounds of marijuana within about 15 minutes to induce a lethal response."

US President Carter once said that, "Penalties against drug use should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself."

Captain Trips

That Carter quote is nice, but there is also the question of possible risk to others as well, as we see with drink drivers whi haven't crashed but are deemed a risk.

There is no way to determine as yet, a quantity of marijuana that would constitute being a risk to others. Certainly, songs like The Irony Of It All are simply the opposite pole to outright bans and are not that accurate, although marijuana does seem to always be protrayed as a totally benign drug.

While obviously for the majority, there are few problems, that's the same with alcohol. Unfortunately there is the small group with bad reactions (be it psychosis, amovitation with marijuana, or aggression and liver disease with alcohol).

So it's not so much a blankaet ban or permission I would favour, more of a trial of the drug, see how you go, and then you get a license to use it. Same for drink, maybe? Some people can drive fine after 5 pints, as can some people after having 3 spliffs; others cannot.

So before releasing a third substance for abuse on the market, we need more research into methods of quantitising it's use, for public safety reasons, not so much personal issues like it's addictivness.

rubadub

there are a lot more than just 2 "abusable substances" available for use. tobacco, alcohol and caffeine are used by the majority though.

anti-drug campaigners are constantly trying to find fault or discover harmful effects of cannabis, the very fact that they have to try so hard shows how relatively benign it is. if all substances were made illegal which could potentially cause harm then there would be very few, if any, legal substances. people overdose on water every year, they drown in it too. vegetable oil is bad for the heart in excess. smoking lettuce leaves gives you lung cancer

bonkey

Originally posted by Captain Trips
Some people can drive fine after 5 pints, as can some people after having 3 spliffs; others cannot.

With a big feed in me, I'm fine after, say 5 or 6 pints . When I havent eaten for the day, 1-2 pints is enough to throw me well off balance.

Personal limits == very bad idea.

jc

Executive Steve

they will never legalise it purely because there is too much money being made in keeping it illegal and its such a votewinner to have a "taskforce on drugs" making "big drugbusts"...
like it or not the worldwide war on drugs is making an awful lot of money for an awful lot of people, and whether or not its in your or my interest in terms of health or not is probably the last thing on their minds....
personally id like to see drugs being kwept illegal on ireland... if they tried to legalise them theyd only put taxes and **** on them and make them too expensive, because right now drugs are pretty much the only affordable lifestyle/leisure option one has as a young irishman.... remember the price of pills back in 99????
10-12 pounds! thats 12-15 euros more or less!!!!
thank god for the gardai and their war on drugs, these days they cost five euros, thats almost as cheap as in holland! way to go fianna dfail keep these ppl in government theyre doing a blinding job.... the odd bloke here and there going to prison for having a few yokes too many in his briefcase coming back over from a weekend in the uk is a small price to pay for our continued ability to get off our nuts every weekend....

RESPECT TO MY BROTHERS ON LOCKDOWN SCOTTISH ROY AND AMERICAN SEÁN SEE YOU WHEN YOU GET OUT LADS!

PEACE

de5p0i1er

Legalise them then tax them, mabye then we wouldn't have to pay so much for cigarettes, alcohol & petrol if the taxes were split across a large group of items.

rubadub

"they will never legalise it purely because there is too much money being made in keeping it illegal and its such a votewinner to have a "taskforce on drugs" making "big drugbusts"..."
-granted the CIA make a fortune dealing drugs but i seriously doubt the gardai are getting any money or are involved much. maybe they can focus their taskforce on the hard drugs or street violence instead of wasting their time hunting down those arch criminals, the cannabis users, its more of a "votewinner" to stop real crime in my book.

"if they tried to legalise them theyd only put taxes and **** on them and make them too expensive, because right now drugs are pretty much the only affordable lifestyle/leisure option one has as a young irishman...."
-if legal you could grow your own or buy from people who do. part of the reason not to legalise is the very fact that it will be hard to tax, unlike drink. you can fit a years supply of cannabis in your pocket.

"remember the price of pills back in 99???? 10-12 pounds! thats 12-15 euros more or less!!!!"
-remember the quality of pills in 99 though. more people make them now so they are cheaper since its a buyers market, not much to do with the gardai.

Trebor

Originally posted by Typedef
On topic.

Hash, is something that 'can' be abused, but, is readily obtainable to children, much more obtainable then alochol.

If marijuana was legalised, it would be more difficult to obtain for children and it would be an entity that would not conrtibute to crime.

However, what would happen is that more people would try the drug, since it would be legitimised (morally) by being legal.

If a contraint on how much one could consume over a given period were introduced then yes, I'd support legalisation.

On another level I worry that legalisation would lead to a generation of people who are ill prepaired for the duration of immediate after effects, being sucked into a cycle of psychological dependance on hashish.

Still, even though I personally no longer use hashish and have no plans to ever use it again, legalisation would make it more difficult to obtain to the young, keep revenue from criminals and add to tax coffers.

I still think the after effects of hashish on short term memory and overall lucidness (after the high has worn off) are too prolonged, so, some form of strain who's after effect turn-around time would be analagous to that of alochol, would be a proposition I would accept for legalisation.

i would agree with Typedef but add that it not be smoked in public but only at home, and that the same should be done to cig's.

Executive Steve

Originally posted by rubadub

"remember the price of pills back in 99???? 10-12 pounds! thats 12-15 euros more or less!!!!"
-remember the quality of pills in 99 though. more people make them now so they are cheaper since its a buyers market, not much to do with the gardai.

you'll find that most of the actual pill production is still carried out in the low countries/eastern europe... ireland probably isnt a large enough market to justify going to the expense and hassle of getting a proper lab going [although there is a well known acid lab down in wexford] although considering that a few litres of basic ingredients can make hundreds of thousands of pills its probably as well.... basically it would be too much of a risk [legal as well as in terms of health and safety/environmental terms - by products of ecstacy/amphetamine production are unbelievably toxic]....

ironically what has done the most to bring down the price of pills in ireland has been the euro... dealers in busy clubs found it hard to go around charging 12.50 for a yoke and eventually the prices just fell to their natural level [interestingly to all armchair free market liberals and or eurosceptics the going rate for a pill off a stranger is now, thanks to the european common currency and the free market, about the same in dublin as in holand or belgium. Up Europe!!!!! ]

and the guards do get money for the drug busts they make... every time they take a photograph of the latest drug bust, shamelessly exaggerate teh "street value" and get the fianna fail slime happy they gain respect and an increased likelihood of their budget [ie wages] being raised. so they can snort coke, rape lap-dancers from leeson street with impunity, and allow copperface jacks to operate according to slightly more "continental" style licensing laws, as well as slightly more "Enron-ist" accounting standards...

but this thread is about drugs not police corruption, and ive already expressed my gratitude for gardai vigilance and intelligent policy on drugs elsewhere in this thread.

PEACE TO THE GARDAI AAIIIIIIIIIGHT!

rubadub

Originally posted by [cm]tyranny
you'll find that most of the actual pill production is still carried out in the low countries/eastern europe... ireland probably isnt a large enough market to justify going to the expense and hassle of getting a proper lab going

yes and there are more gangs in competition making so buyers have more choice. there was an e lab years back in lucan. it blew up! i would still think MDMA powder is brought in and pills are pressed here though

Originally posted by [cm]tyranny
[although there is a well known acid lab down in wexford]

where did you hear that one! e's are like making beans on toast compared to acid. the DEA reckon most of the worlds acid supply is made by a maximum of 6 people in california. it is extremely difficult to make and the equipment needed costs 100000's. 1gram is 10,000 doses so one kilo from a lab is 10,000,000 doses. maybe the wexford lab is just getting pure acid and diluting it and making paper trips. the old newspapers would call this a "lab" just like the "high tech skunk factories" they find (guy with a plant in his bedroom window)

Originally posted by [cm]tyranny
and the guards do get money for the drug busts they make... every time they take a photograph of the latest drug bust, shamelessly exaggerate teh "street value" and get the fianna fail slime happy they gain respect and an increased likelihood of their budget [ie wages] being raised.

i agree, i thought you were hinting that they are directly involved with dealing like the CIA.

Executive Steve

rubadub said : "i agree, i thought you were hinting that they are directly involved with dealing like the CIA."

hehehehe not even i would suggest that hehehe - doesnt mean it aint happenin though

although if you want to see scary erosion of legal sovereignty going on than look no further to recent threats by the american dea to seek to effectively block shipping inbound from rotterdam [the worlds biggest and busiest harbour] if holland doesnt start playing ball in extraditing suspects in ecstasy cases... as it is now most judges block such extraditions on grounds that suspects are unlikely to face a fairtrialaccording to dutch legal standards, and the fact that us prisons are considered to be unfit for human habitiation.... the american tradition of plea bargaining isnt considered to be best legal practice, and american prisons, characterised as they are with violence sodomy aids and the lack of even the tiniest pretence of a rehabilitatory function are also considered to be below par...
it is a matter of public record that dea and cia are breaking dutch legal and judicial sovereignty and any number of international treaties with only threats as answers to why...