Is Kerr losing his bottle?

tomED

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2003/06/10/story102138.html

Interesting reading, after all the giving out kerr got for ireland's performance at the weekend, has he finally bowed to the miedia pressure?

Emboss

looks like he's MANAGING to me, it's what he was hired to do no ? kerr took a risk, he tried something new, which is what people were crying for, it didn't work out we got away with it, with 2 games so close with the talent he has to choose from he'll probably just go back to a 4-4-2 hopefully drop kevin and take it from there

Sposs

Sack Him Sack Him !!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

tomED

i hope to god he drops kevin kilbane - hes such a waste of space.

Yes kerr is there to manage, but it seems a bit drastic to change the system after only one competitive game. Managers usually know if something will work and stick at it for a while - but this seems like a rash decision. Maybe he thinks its just not a good time to mess with things i dunno.....

but interesting topic of discussion i wold think....

Emboss

doesn't seem drastic at all, drastic was trying duffer behind the front 2 but watching how it worked in the friendly, i wasn't suprised he tried it agaisnt albania, and even more suprised he didn't go back to a 4-4-2 in the second half taken of kilban putting on carsly and playing duffer on the left, which would have even'd up the midfield and given kinsella an easy outlet to the wingers and have o shea working with duffer on the left with a switch to carr/carsly/keane on the right playing off gary would have been the answer to my second half anyway, back on topic i'd like to see that from the off tbh tomorrow, duff on the left keane playing off gary, if a manager trys something in the permiership and it doesn't work, they usually change back to the formation that works best, this shouldn't be any different in international football,

COME ON IRELAND!

tomED

Originally posted by Emboss
if a manager trys something in the permiership and it doesn't work, they usually change back to the formation that works best, this shouldn't be any different in international football,

Not true - Alex ferguson has persisted with something, that I still feel doesnt suit united.

However over the past 2 years he has stuck by it - in fairness it worked better for him this year, but probably worked more in scholes favour!

Obviuosly in some games you will go out with a game plan and change it if its not working out, but gameplans are different than formation!

Emboss

alex has worked hard at trying a differnt way of playing, especially in europe and has been slammed for doing by media and fans alike, the difference here is alex has alot more time to work on this as he trains with the team everyday kerr doesn't haev that luxry or the quality of players that can united have but most times you seen united playing well this year it's the old 4-4-2 i said most and i said usually, alex isn't most and he's not the usuall

tomED

Originally posted by Emboss
alex has worked hard at trying a differnt way of playing, especially in europe and has been slammed for doing by media and fans alike, the difference here is alex has alot more time to work on this as he trains with the team everyday kerr doesn't haev that luxry or the quality of players that can united have but most times you seen united playing well this year it's the old 4-4-2 i said most and i said usually, alex isn't most and he's not the usuall

and your point is????

Emboss

the point is kerr tried something, against a half decent team on saturday we would have be blown away 3 or 4 0 he's changing the team not because of the media because it simply didn't work, if u don't play well u get dropped and hopefully he means players like kevin who just didn't perform will be dropped back to a 4-4-2 and start playing ****ing football that's my point

kamobe

There's no need for another Kilbane rant, so I'll restrain myself. But holland and Kinsella were terrible. We're missing 'somebody'. Carsley did play decent when he came on, and at least threaded some passes towards THEIR goal...

Just say a prayer tonight folks for those all to brittle legs of the duffer....

Emboss

I don't think kinsella and holland played very badly, we just need to understand what they are capable of and controling a 3 man midfield just isn't it, they need outlets without having to make complicated passes like keane WAS capable of doing, play to our strenghts and our biggest one is duffer so why not put him back on the left ? that way kinsella can do what he does best bite ankles around the center circle, carsley can do both thread some nice balls and is a great battler i think he has to start.

sadloserkid

And what part of Manchester are you boys from? :rolleyes:

tomED

Originally posted by Emboss
the point is kerr tried something, against a half decent team on saturday we would have be blown away 3 or 4 0 he's changing the team not because of the media because it simply didn't work, if u don't play well u get dropped and hopefully he means players like kevin who just didn't perform will be dropped back to a 4-4-2 and start playing ****ing football that's my point

But that doesn't answer my question -

One minute you are saying that if it happened in the premiership managers would change straight away, my point was that that wasn't true - but then you came back with "alex has a lot more time with his team" - you seem to be contradicting yourself.....

I personally think he has bowed to media pressure - and thank god it produced some results for us last night...

p.pete

Originally posted by tomED
I personally think he has bowed to media pressure - and thank god it produced some results for us last night...

It's tough being a manager - everyone is a critic. If something doesn't work they know about it soon enough. Not only do they see it with their own eyes, fans and media alike are also quick to point the finger.

It kind of puts them in a bind when people come out with statements like "I personally think he has bowed to media pressure". It's almost like saying that they can't think for themselves. If they change it we say "well done but your only doing it because we all complained and told you it sucked" and if they don't change it they'll be branded idiots.

The only way that the manager can win in this situation is if they stick to their guns and it turns out that they were right all along. Of course if something is obviously wrong (like playing Duff as a striker!) then it is unlikely to ever turn right for them. Sometimes we make it hard for a poor manager to turn around and say "that didn't work".

DaithiSurfer

Yep, everyone is a better manager than the existing Kerr as well.
People, you only know what you know about the players and the team from what you read in the paper.
Do you go to see ALL of the players play ... NO
do you go to talk to the players and get their opinion .... NO
do you talk to their club managers and get advice from them ... NO
do you get medical reports etc ... NO
You don't know what you are talking about. You just know what the media tells you you know.
So leave managers alone and let them do their jobs,
They are better at this than you all .. surprise, surprise.

KdjaCL

Kerr is trying to create a good attacking footballing side something he is renowned for doing but he hasnt got the midfielders to do it so he is balancing and balancing well.


Anyone else think donkey Kilbane was scarily good last night

kdjac

BKtje

yer KDJAC, he actually looked a threat

Armageddon must be nigh

tomED

Soory guys, I simply don't have faith in a manager that bows under pressure and thats what I personally think he did.

The responses he gave to the match last saturday we're directed at the likes of giles and dunphy who openly gave out about him (as they always do), when he said some of these guys didn't do very well as manager themselves.

Kerr lost faith in his original gameplan - but why give up so easy - lets face it, if kerr didnt bring us to the european cup would we really blame him? I know I wouldnt because he was given an almighty task to get us out of this current situation.

I respect someone more who can think for themselves, give something ago and see what happens. One game isnt enough to test whether something works or not. The level of input from the lads last night was twice as high as the level of work they put in on saturday. I don't think last night was down to change of tactics but more to what kerr does best - teambuild.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a kerr hater - in fact im glad he is there instead of mccarthy. I just got worried when i read the article.......................

Waylander

TomEd Duff was not available for selection and we do not have any other player who could fill that role all that well. That could just be the reason he did not try it again.

tomED

do we not???

I think keane could especially after seeing him playing last night.

We have strikers on the bench - may not be top quailty, but duff was in there to playmake and score.... keane is capable of the same. Obviuosly he is not as quick, but equally talented

Waylander

Yeah but if we play Keane there we lose our only reliable striker. I know Doherty has scored a few for us but Dunphy and Giles are right. He is not an international class striker. You take Robbie Keane out of the front two and we have no natural goal scorer up front. If you try and throw David Connolly at me I will not even dignify that with a response.

tomED

we played with quinn for years as a sole striker and acheived things............. you telling me he was world class?

We only needed a result last night - not some amazing performance.

In fact i couldnt see anyone else other than doherty making a breakthrough last night because keane kept coming deep to get the game going.

I think keane was amazing last night, and i wish his strike that hit the bar went in becuase that would have shown to everyone what a world class player he really is

DaithiSurfer

Yeah, scary wasn't it (Kilbane).
I woder when he'll learn how to shoot though.

DaithiSurfer

tomED,
If Kerr had stuck to the albania system then Keane would have been deep most of the time anyway according to your idea.

Kerr is a new manager, he has to develop his team and his ideas during an intensly competitive campaign and high pressure campaign.
I think he's done a great job under these circumstances to remain unbeaten.

p.pete

Kerrs' job is to pick the best team and formation from the players available. Given that Duff, arguably our best player, was not available last night a change of tactics being referred to as "giving in to pressure" is a little harsh.

Maybe the argument that he can't possibly decide that what he tried didn't work after just one match is true. Maybe he hasn't shelved the idea, maybe he will wait until he feels he has the correct players available before trying it again.

It's frustrating to hear people saying that he was bowing under pressure. We won which is the most important thing - also I don't remember any of the critics suggesting Healy should play which was an excellent and brave decision.

Emboss

"But that doesn't answer my question -

One minute you are saying that if it happened in the premiership managers would change straight away, my point was that that wasn't true - but then you came back with "alex has a lot more time with his team" - you seem to be contradicting yourself.....

I personally think he has bowed to media pressure - and thank god it produced some results for us last night.."

I said MOST managers in the premiership and i said alex WASN'T most, is that so hard to understand ? for the last time kerr TRIED SOMETHING it didn't work he went back to what works best 4-4-2 you don't have to be a brain surgeon to work out the formation that suits the irish team, so THE POINT IS he didn't change under preasure from ANYONE it didn't work end of story, is he continuing the work on the training ground? maybe how many training sesisons have you been to ?

tomED

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
tomED,
If Kerr had stuck to the albania system then Keane would have been deep most of the time anyway according to your idea.

Yes - I never said there was anything wrong with him playing deep last night, I used it as an example that they could have stuck to the same gameplan as albania.

Kerr is a new manager, he has to develop his team and his ideas during an intensly competitive campaign and high pressure campaign.
I think he's done a great job under these circumstances to remain unbeaten.

Yes so do I as I already said in one of my previuos posts... I'll reiterate my problem.

I feel he bowed to media pressure - I have would have more faith in him if he stuck to his guns and had more faith in his own tactics. I don't think his tactics were wrong on saturday - I think the team just didnt perform as well as they could have.

Waylander

By the way, Keane did make a break through, the score was 2-0. And Quinn was a much better player then Doherty is ever likely to be. Doherty has no feet, he didi not successfully hold the ball up all night and his ball retention was awful to quote Dennis Irwin.

He did not bow to media pressure, he just did not have the same players available so he changed his tactics. Despite what TomEd was saying you cannot take your only natural goal scorer out of the front two, it does not make sense. And we do not have anyone else who could have filled the role.

tomED

Originally posted by p.pete
Kerrs' job is to pick the best team and formation from the players available. Given that Duff, arguably our best player, was not available last night a change of tactics being referred to as "giving in to pressure" is a little harsh.

Maybe the argument that he can't possibly decide that what he tried didn't work after just one match is true. Maybe he hasn't shelved the idea, maybe he will wait until he feels he has the correct players available before trying it again.

It's frustrating to hear people saying that he was bowing under pressure. We won which is the most important thing - also I don't remember any of the critics suggesting Healy should play which was an excellent and brave decision.

Why is it frustrating for someone to have an opinion? Before last nights game EVERYONE thought his tactics were wrong last saturday... I didn't and was delighted that he tried something different. I still feel duffs best postion is on the wing - but at least he tried something... and I don't think he should have given up on his plan so soon.

tomED

Originally posted by Emboss
"But that doesn't answer my question -

One minute you are saying that if it happened in the premiership managers would change straight away, my point was that that wasn't true - but then you came back with "alex has a lot more time with his team" - you seem to be contradicting yourself.....

I personally think he has bowed to media pressure - and thank god it produced some results for us last night.."

I said MOST managers in the premiership and i said alex WASN'T most, is that so hard to understand ? for the last time kerr TRIED SOMETHING it didn't work he went back to what works best 4-4-2 you don't have to be a brain surgeon to work out the formation that suits the irish team, so THE POINT IS he didn't change under preasure from ANYONE it didn't work end of story, is he continuing the work on the training ground? maybe how many training sesisons have you been to ?

Well then it was a very flippant post from you then wasn't it.... Alex is a premiership amanger and would be covered under the "most premiership managers" title.

And again... i feel he did - my opinion guys im entitled to it - just like when everyone gives out about his tactics on saturday, i thought they were a breath of fresh air, everyone else has their own opinions.... just like me

p.pete

Originally posted by tomED
I feel he bowed to media pressure - I have would have more faith in him if he stuck to his guns and had more faith in his own tactics. I don't think his tactics were wrong on saturday - I think the team just didnt perform as well as they could have.

Do you think the tactics last night were wrong?

Why should he be forced to stick to his guns, maybe he didn't think it was the correct thing to do on the night.

Is there any chance that media pressure were stating the obvious and that Kerr just happened to see it that way too. Managers don't have to do things just to be different.

tomED

Originally posted by Waylander
By the way, Keane did make a break through, the score was 2-0. And Quinn was a much better player then Doherty is ever likely to be. Doherty has no feet, he didi not successfully hold the ball up all night and his ball retention was awful to quote Dennis Irwin.

He did not bow to media pressure, he just did not have the same players available so he changed his tactics. Despite what TomEd was saying you cannot take your only natural goal scorer out of the front two, it does not make sense. And we do not have anyone else who could have filled the role.

Well you could also say that there is no point in bringing you best left winger (one of the best in the world) inside and playing as a playmaker......... but he did that.

tomED

Originally posted by p.pete
Do you think the tactics last night were wrong?

Why should he be forced to stick to his guns, maybe he didn't think it was the correct thing to do on the night.

Is there any chance that media pressure were stating the obvious and that Kerr just happened to see it that way too. Managers don't have to do things just to be different.

No, me with no managerial skills would have done what he did last night. I still think we would have won last night with the system we played on saturday with robbie filling the hole. The team were more up for last nights match which made a huge difference.

Waylander

That is a fair point. But for some reason Irish managers seem to think that Kilbane is a good winger. I know he had a good game last night but I would not agree witht his viewpoint. I actually agree with you and think his tactics on Saturday were good, it was the performance that was not, and would like to see it employed again. I do not think that he bowed under pressure though, I think he just felt he did not have anyone who could fill the position effectively without damaging another part of the pitch.

p.pete

Originally posted by tomED
Why is it frustrating for someone to have an opinion? Before last nights game EVERYONE thought his tactics were wrong last saturday... I didn't and was delighted that he tried something different. I still feel duffs best postion is on the wing - but at least he tried something... and I don't think he should have given up on his plan so soon.

I agree with most of the footballing points that you are making.

Naturally I agree that everyone should have an opinion, just as I'm entitled to feel frustrated when trying to get everyone to see the world from my narrow point of view. It's hard work you know:D .

Basically I'm trying to say we will never know whether it was media pressure. Kerr could have sat at home and decided he feared an Eamon Dunphy backlash more than having his convictions proved right or wrong. Alternatively he could have sat at home and picked the team and formation that he thought would do the job.

There is lots of scenarios and part of my point is that we will never know - so I don't see how it possible to be so sure that he is bowing to media pressure. He may not even have been home in the last few days:rolleyes: but that's neither here nor there.

tomED

Originally posted by Waylander
I think he just felt he did not have anyone who could fill the position effectively without damaging another part of the pitch.

Makes sense

Maybe him "bowing" (if I can use that phrase) is good - if he is willing to swallow his pride (unlike Mick Macarthy and Jack Charlton) maybe it shows that he is really truly great manager???? Doesnt mind admitting it when he is wrong?

p.pete

Originally posted by tomED
No, me with no managerial skills would have done what he did last night. I still think we would have won last night with the system we played on saturday with robbie filling the hole. The team were more up for last nights match which made a huge difference.

If only you were in the media! He would be doing the opposite of what you wanted and there would be even less rationality to your argument;)

tomED

Originally posted by p.pete
If only you were in the media! He would be doing the opposite of what you wanted and there would be even less rationality to your argument;)

LOL

DaithiSurfer

I think he has his own mind.
Possibly he looked albania and georgia and decided that one formation for one and a different for the other would be wise.I reckon that he should never show his cards.
Announce the team on the night and let the other team guess up til then, then swap formations if he feels like it will deveop the irish game a bide more

BKtje

Some people here suggesting that Keane plays in the hole behind the front two. I think that would be a disaster.

1) Hes is our best striker at the moment and we need him where he is at his best.

2) He is too selfish a player to play the 'Duff' role behind the front two. He over complicates things and could never be considered a play maker.

3)He doesnt have the necessary vision or passing ability. (ie he doesnt pass )


He's great at what he does but id never stick him in the Duff role behind front two.

Bateman

Have to agree with John O Brien's article in yesterday's Sunday Times (am I allowed say that?:ninja: ).

Yes, Kerr is probably a lucky manager. Yes, McCarthy was probably an unlucky manager. But it also happens that Kerr is a far BETTER manager. While it's true that his dealings with the media indicate a tendencey to react badly to constructice criticism, he is undoubtedly the man for the job.

Its probably fair to say that he should have started Doherty against Albania, but in the end, after he effectively admitted this by bringing on Doherty, it paid off. Who knows, maybe the Albanians might have figured out how to cope with Doherty given 90 minutes, but couldn't in 15/20, or however long he was actually on for. A surprise package from the bench is always a handy card to play against tiring defenders.