Eircom Evaluating Always On Dynamic ISDN from Alcatel.

spongebob

The USO negotiations are underway. I have heard from a dicky bird that Eircom at one point tried to pawn a piece of Crap called AODI off as a Broadband solution which would be compliant with their USO data obligations. It works with line splitters you see.

AODI works over 10km from the Exchange, to as much as 18Km apparently.

AODI is always on so it is.

DI is the Dodgy bit. It applies the principle of RADSL to ISDN . We could be the first country in Europe that has 9.6k ISDN unless Comreg firmly tells Eircom to naff off with themselves and remove the splitters instead.

Here is some Product Information From Alcatel themselves...the company who provide Eircom with their DSLAM's remember.

M

Capt'n Midnight

ISDN first appeared on the scene in the early 1980s...

I've found this website from '96 - most of the links no longer work - that is how long we've been put on hold - back when Germany was rolling out ISDN to anyone who wanted it - in the USA ISDN calls were 0.1c during business hours and free otherwise.. Even Esat used the D channel to alert customers that new email had arrived...

http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~dank/isdn/

"Ascend using Data-only ISDN As Step towards ADSL

Ascend had a bright idea: if the phone companies don't like us nailing up connections to our ISP's through the phone companies' switches, why not utterly bypass the switches? In other words, use ISDN just like ADSL. Your line will run straight to (naturally) an Ascend router instead of the phone company. You can't make a phone call with it, but you don't have to pay usage charges, either. Plus, you can upgrade to ADSL when it comes down in price, and the backbone can handle it.
You can read about it at Ascend's IDSL web page.NEW "

http://www.ascend.com/products/idsl/idslindex.html
(but don't bother 'cos Lucent bought the company a good while back)

Lets face it back in the 70's when ISDN was developed the full 16Kb of the D channel was considered as just the handshaking overhead on the entry level product... - if it was not broadband back in the 70's then how the [####] can using only part of it be considered BB now.

ISDN Is Still Difficult to Network,

============================================
Maybe the rat will try this next...

http://www.cavebear.com/CaveBear/catalog.html
Is your Basic Rate Interface just too basic? Do you want your Bearer channels to roar like an angry bear?

What you need is CaveBear's copyrighted ISDN INTENSIFIER!

This handy device splits your outgoing data stream. It puts all the ones bits onto one of your two B channels and all of the zero bits onto the other B channel. This lets the data compression unit in your ISDN box go into supercharged overdrive.

===========================================

I getting worried about the 18km distance - this sounds like an excuse not to upgrade lines. - Is there any technical reason why they just can't give the full 128kb over that distance ???

dahamsta

I notice that the lead article on Whirlpool has Telstra rolling out AODI in Oz just now. The comparison between Telstra and Eircom has always astounded me, in fact I went around for about three months at one stage fully convinced that Eircom was a major shareholder in Telstra. The mind playing tricks.

adam

niallb

Muck Wrote:
DI is the Dodgy bit. It applies the principle of RADSL to ISDN . We could be the first country in Europe that has 9.6k ISDN unless Comreg firmly tells Eircom to naff off with themselves and remove the splitters instead.

Don't think so Muck, this is surely just an always on D Channel connection at 9.6k which can bring up the two 64k B channels on demand.
It's not a broken ISDN connection, it's just what ISDN is meant to be capable of.
You can't split an ISDN line like that.

There are many of us for whom this would be an ideal solution.
Broadband is not the only goal.
24/7 unlimited access is ignored because it comes as a side-effect with DSL.
It is considered rude for dialup users to request a 24/7 link as it ties up a copper pair which could be sold to 20 other people as well as themselves. Also it is available as a product called a leased line... €€€€

At this point people usually tell me it would be cheaper to get DSL, but I don't really have the funds to develop the time machine that would be required to see DSL rollout where I live :rolleyes:

NiallB

SkepticOne

Eircom have always had the power to do this and I remember people requesting it on this forum. There was certainly no way they would have considered actually implementing it previously as it would have had an impact on their bottom line, however now, with FRIACO and broadband coming out, they may consider it. The technology is proven and in place, it is just the impact on the bottom line that Eircom would be worried about: will they lose any money from businesses dialing up every half hour for email, etc.

There are plenty of low volume applications that could take advantage of it even though, really, broadband wipes the floor with it.

spongebob

If this wretched idea is allowed through by Comreg (their Rural BB Consultation appears to indicate that it is a non runner) then

1. Eircom keep the splitter inline
2. 'Upgrade' you to ISDN at ISDN prices no doubt.
3. Charge you for the 9.6k , you can get friaco on a b channel.
4. Will forever stop you from upgrading the line, it will never pass a test for a higher capacity connection with a splitter and ISDN in the way.

Fortunately, the designation of Vodafone (possibly together with 02) as SMP operators ..........appears to indicate that USO data will be wireless in the GSM band and that Eircom will never get a chance to roll this sh1te out.

If 25% of the state is covered by o2 and Vodafone then Eircom simply have to remove the pairgains in the more densely populated areas of the state where the other 75% live.

With the pairgains gone, IDSL would be the logical minimum standard IMO

M

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Muck
If this wretched idea is allowed through by Comreg (their Rural BB Consultation appears to indicate that it is a non runner) then

On what grounds could ComReg prevent it being done? The only one I can see is if Eirom fail (as they have done before) to provide an appropriate wholesale product.

I doubt if anyone is going to jump up and down at the thought of this, it is just Eircom squeezing a bit more out of their copper network.

Capt'n Midnight

RE: It is considered rude for dialup users to request a 24/7 link as it ties up a copper pair which could be sold to 20 other people as well as themselves

Before the exchanges went digital this was indeed the case as you could only squeeze a few calls onto the copper pairs between exchanges and each call took a fixed amount of bandwidth - you could not reuse silences for other calls.

The whole point of digital is lots of bandwidth between exchanges. The copper pair to your house is not shared with anyone else (at worst cancel the line and reapply for a splitter free one) and each copper pair from the exchange can handle many, many times 9,600bps - especially if the digital mux is in the exchange. And the other big reasons for digital are compression and the ability to share the bandwidth between all the calls.

Also this should be cheaper than FIARCO - because FIARCO would most definitely use the copper pairs between exchanges It would be more unfair to use FIARCO 24/7 !!!

The current price of ISDN in this country is enough to cover 9.6K 24/7 internet access if others can offer 512K for €30 per month...

Also 9.6K means a 6:1 contention ratio - ie. at the exchange it would get muxed onto a 64K channel.

---

Or another way of looking at is - that bandwidth was built into the spec back in the 70's - and could have been available back then.

==================================

9.6K 24/7 is great for most non-interactive uses
: satellite uplink
: gaming - if you get good ping times
: email
: overnight downloads

- but it needs to be at a price relative to faster connections

It is not BROADBAND
It should be the cheapest fixed rate connection - but I think they will try to charge more for it.

dahamsta

I don't agree with you on this one Muck. AODI has been highlighted on this forum in the past as an excellent product for certain applications, and particularly as a stopgap measure. I would have taken it several years ago, for example, because I need to be in touch and the 9.6k would have been fine for a trickle of email. I realise it doesn't apply as much today, but I see no reason to restrict choice as long as the regulator monitors things intelligently*. Choice is always a good thing.

adam

*Caution: This may hurt to read.

ednwireland

absolutely i can see eircom trying to say that this is new technology and will only be used where DSL is unavailable and the charge more for it mind you if it was uncapped, available and a bit cheaper than dsl i could see people going for it butcant see eircom being that forward thinking, its never happended before all eircom do is desperatlty fight to maintain their dwindling revenue stream

spongebob

x.25 is a great idea too. Its had its day , bye bye X.25

Lets not bet the farm on this crap, Eircom have grossly unused 3.5Ghz Spectrum nationwide. Lets not allow them to squat on it like a pregnant Rat with piles.

The thought of primitive "Always On Hi-Speed" makes me shudder.

Check your PM's BTW

niallb

Muck wrote:

1. Eircom keep the splitter inline
2. 'Upgrade' you to ISDN at ISDN prices no doubt.
3. Charge you for the 9.6k , you can get friaco on a b channel.
4. Will forever stop you from upgrading the line, it will never pass a test for a higher capacity connection with a splitter and ISDN in the way.

With the pairgains gone, IDSL would be the logical minimum standard IMO

1: I don't know where you're getting this splitter idea.
Hasn't upgrading to ISDN been touted on these boards for years as a good step towards getting your line unencumbered?

2: It IS an upgrade to dialup, even 1 64k channel is almost twice as fast as a good 56k modem.
Download speed almost never goes below 7.3k and its always the other end.

3: Yes, I'll buy one of those please.

4: There's no pairgain, and Eircorn claim they can test ISDN lines now, so no obstacle to upgrade.

The last two times I've had the "come back" call from Eircom, I've suggested to them to take the results of testing all lines each month (as they say they do) and include the result of your lines on your bill.
For a simple programming exercise, that one step has the potential to explode broadband takeup throughout the country.

Roll on IDSL, as you say, it is the medium term answer for those of us outside towns,
but shortterm the Dynamic ISDN sounds good. Like Adam, I need to be connected, but speed is not an issue. This could have saved me a fortune over the last 5 years.

Combined with Capt'n Midnights suggestion of uplink for satellite, you could have a very convenient link.
I was desperately thinking of doing this with GPRS or amateur radio uplink, but this would have a lot less latency.

Don't RTE have some old license for a 9.6k wireless service? Anyone ??

spongebob

Eircom were touting it for universal use!

The copper in the Rural West is of such a dismal quality that it would be best to swap it for wireless altogether and to leave Eircom to service the South and East with decent copper. Granite/Bog/Rain and Copper in an area are an absolutely lethal mixture.

Think of the lightning risk to an always on copper technology with up to 10Km of overhead cable in a granite area. In case you hadn't thought of the inadvisability of long overhead copper runs then look at This Map here which explains my point quite clearly.

Nearly every ISDN line in Rural Galway was taken out by lighning Last March along with plenty of the Terminal Equipment.

The Compulsory Line Test results on your Bill is a brilliant idea. Eirocm will never go along with it because most people do not realise how bad their lines are so why tell them ?.

Biddy would have to handle the flak on 1901 with her usual aplomb.

M