Religion and Europe

Spock

A new EN consitution was just draw up, or something like that and the pope tried to get Christian mention in it somewhere, but to no avail, does religion have a place in modern europe

seamus

Nope. Religion has no place in modern politics. Any kind of political action which actively benefits or denies one or more religions (except if it benefits or denies all religions) should never be carried out.

Politics and religion should always be kept separate imo. Ah well, here's to hoping.......

Everyone has the freedom to worship whatever they like, but the laws of state are always higher than the laws of religion. Simple as that.

mike65

Religion has a place in society and individuals lives if they so choose, but not in a politcal construct as seamus notes.

Mike.

Sparks

No.
Wrote to my local MEP to say no, wrote to the MEP mentioned by the AIH to say no, and wrote twice to John Bruton to say no.

Spock

Muslims take their religion very seriously, they use its policies as their political views. Unless its counter acted by Christianty in our politics they could go nuts.
America: in God we trust. Should this be removed from their currency

Zombrex

I agree ... choice of religion is a person choice, and no one group has the right to impose their personal choice on others, even if they are democratically elected.

I have heard of some people trying to get the God bit removed from the US currency. The referrence to God in the Pledge that school children take was recently removed.

America is always a wonder when it comes to religion and polictics. On one hand they have one of the most progressive political ideas of keeping church and state seperate, an idea protected by their constitution. On the other hand that idea seems to piss an awful lot of Americans off, who believe that God is being banned from school and that all of societies ills are cause by not having prayer in schools.

gandalf

A definate NO!

Religion and state should be separated especially given our experience where its been used to justify attrocities on both sides (normally by thugs who've never seen the inside of a church imho).

Gandalf.

bonkey

Originally posted by Spock
does religion have a place in modern europe

In "modern Europe", definitely. Within the political structure of the EU...definitely not.

jc

solice

religion should not be linked with politics not just because religion is something personal and is suppossed to be something alot more than materialistic, but politics in its nature is seedy and backstabbing, religion in its nature is suppossed to be rewarding and fullfilling.

Yoda

I think if the European Constitution mentions the Christian god, it should also mention Allfather Odin, Zeus, and the Great Mother. (She's been here since the Ice Age.)

Apart from that, the Church should be separate from the State. And the Church, like any other business, should be subject to tax.

uaobrien

I don't think there is anything wrong with referring to a God or supreme being in the constitution, we do it in the Irish constitution and America does it in theirs. I agree that favouring a specific religion (such as Catholicism or Calvinism) over others is wrong. But there is nothing wrong with acknowledging the hand of deity in the role of a nation.

A lot of hardline US republicans (read as "just one step short of neo-nazis") criticize Europe because there is no place for God in our world view. They accuse us of being too fond of looking at things as gray and not as black and white.

I think mentioning "God" and stating clearly that the semantics of the word implies the personal god that any given person worships (i.e. Allah, Zeus, Mother Earth etc.) is acceptable in a political constitution.

There can still be separation of church and state with both entities acknowledging there is a God.

Just think with God in the EU constitution we could then claim the same rights as the US and start calling countries "evil empires" or "axes of evil". My first vote would be to include America in both of those.

sovtek

Originally posted by uaobrien
I don't think there is anything wrong with referring to a God or supreme being in the constitution, we do it in the Irish constitution and America does it in theirs.

The Consitution of the US does not contain reference to God. There is a reference to "Nature's God" and "Creator" in the Declaration of Independence.
There is the "under God" in the pledge of allegiance but was added in the '50's, in effect to counter the "godless communists" of the Soviet Union.

Sparks

It's not so much about the God thing though uaobrien, it's about the church & state issue, which isn't the same thing.
Besides, "God" has been the source for a lot of the worst atrocities in european history. Not including him/her/it in the constitution would be a good step forward, implying that we've had a ****ty past but we're going to try to learn from it and change, rather than doing the christian democrat thing and saying that "it's a christian europe and please **** off if you're muslim, bhuddist, hindu, atheist, agnostic, taoist or some other heathen"...

Meh

Originally posted by uaobrien
I think mentioning "God" and stating clearly that the semantics of the word implies the personal god that any given person worships (i.e. Allah, Zeus, Mother Earth etc.) is acceptable in a political constitution.

What if I don't worship a God at all? Non-believers are the second-largest group in this country, remember.

Yoda

Well, "no religion" doesn't necessarily signify disbelief in a god of some sort. There could be any number of reasons people would write that.

Meh

Originally posted by Yoda
Well, "no religion" doesn't necessarily signify disbelief in a god of some sort. There could be any number of reasons people would write that.

Regardless of semantic quibbling, the point still stands that there are a significant number of non-believers in this country (and many more in the rest of Europe) who would be left out in the cold by uaobrien's proposal.

Yoda

Well, I'm not so offended by mythology, as long as the mythologies are treated equivalently. Invoking YHWH alone is a bit irritating. Invoking YHWH, Odin, Athena, and Ganesh all at the same time would be less irritating.

Article 44 of the Constitution of Ireland says:

Admhaíonn an Stát go bhfuil ag dul do Dhia na nUilechumhacht é a adhradh le homós go poiblí. Beidh urraim ag an Stát dá ainm, agus béarfadh oirmhidin agus onóir do Chreideamh.

The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in Reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

I don't find this obligation appropriate, and I would rather it not appear in the Constitution of my country, but it didn't stop me from chosing to be naturalized as an Irish citizen.

Eurorunner

I dont think there should be any mention of God/religion in the EU constitution. Religion is a personal thing. We should have learned out lesson from past involvement of church in politics/power - but clearly the conservative element in ireland is alive and welll - and will keep this country down for as long as it exists.

A clear distinction is necessary with no vagueness.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Yoda
I think if the European Constitution mentions the Christian god, it should also mention Allfather Odin, Zeus, and the Great Mother. (She's been here since the Ice Age.)

Historically Odin (Scandinavian rather than European) and Jove/Zeus (the Roman empire was more Mediterranean than European, as for the Greek Macedonian Empire, practically none of that was in Europe) were hardly European in scope. As for the Great Mother, well sure, if you actually believe the historical sources that say she was a pan-European deity since the Ice Age :rolleyes:

One argument for the inclusion of Christianity in a European constitution is that Europe has fundamentally been shaped by Christian ideology and beliefs - go to Asia if you don’t believe me - they have a completely different way of looking at things there. Additionally, it has often been the only thing in common between the European tribes and nations since the fall of Rome. The few times we have come together has regrettably been, more often than not, to stage a crusade or to stave off Invasions by non-Christians (Islam tends to forget that they invaded us a few times too).

Apart from that, the Church should be separate from the State.

Agreed. Constantine’s will was a forgery after all.

Yoda

The Corinthian said
Historically Odin (Scandinavian rather than European) and Jove/Zeus (the Roman empire was more Mediterranean than European, as for the Greek Macedonian Empire, practically none of that was in Europe) were hardly European in scope.

Well, I don't know where you think Europe is, but I think it's the continent west of the Urals as shown here.

As for the Great Mother, well sure, if you actually believe the historical sources that say she was a pan-European deity since the Ice Age

I believe the archaeological record, and the work of scholars like Marija Gimbutas and others who have plausibly reconstructed much of what must have been.

One argument for the inclusion of Christianity in a European constitution is that Europe has fundamentally been shaped by Christian ideology and beliefs

And the sooner we put that bigoted nonsense behind us the better. Europe was also shaped by Viking expeditions and Roman legions capturing people and sending them home to be slaves.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Yoda
Well, I don't know where you think Europe is, but I think it's the continent west of the Urals as shown here.

And I’m not sure where you thought the Roman or Greek empires were. One was obviously more Mediterranean than European, in location with as much (or almost) territory outside of Europe as in it, and the latter was effectively the Greeks taking over the Persian empire. As for Odin, worship of Viking gods was very limited, to Scandinavia and Viking settlements, and would have been largely unheard of in southern Europe.

I believe the archaeological record, and the work of scholars like Marija Gimbutas and others who have plausibly reconstructed much of what must have been.

Prehistoric and thus debatable. Also Marija Gimbutas can hardly be treated as an undisputed source either, can he?

And the sooner we put that bigoted nonsense behind us the better. Europe was also shaped by Viking expeditions and Roman legions capturing people and sending them home to be slaves.

Of course it was, but ultimately if one wants to pick a single religion or even ideology that has defined European philosophy and common identity for the last thousand plus years it’s not paganism, Judaism or Islam - it’s Christianity. Historically it’s pretty obvious.

I’m not saying that Christianity should be enshrined in such a European constitution, only that there is a valid argument to be made for its inclusion.

PHB

Thats not a valid argument.

Historically, we are mostly white people, does that mean there should be a place for white people in the constitution?

Historically we're always invading people, does that mean there should be a place for invading everyone?

Historically we went on lots of crusades, does that mean there should be a special article outlining the rules of a cruasadde and where they can go?

I think not. The fact that we were does not mean we are now.
****ing hell historically over the last 1000 years we were mostly small nation states, and now we're trying to become one thing.
THINGS CHANGE!

Christianity has had its time as a poltiical power, and now it has, and should in the constituion, become a RELIGION.

Yoda

The Corinthian wondered
And I’m not sure where you thought the Roman or Greek empires were. One was obviously more Mediterranean than European, in location with as much (or almost) territory outside of Europe as in it, and the latter was effectively the Greeks taking over the Persian empire.

Jupiter and Zeus resided in Rome and Athens, whatever the borders of the empires were.

As for Odin, worship of Viking gods was very limited, to Scandinavia and Viking settlements, and would have been largely unheard of in southern Europe.

That doesn't mean the North isn't in Europe.

Look, what I was saying is that Odin and Zeus and YHWH are all pretty much the same good ol' mythological boys to a great many people, and if one of those fantasies is let in, shouldn't they all?

Regarding the Mother Goddess and the Ice Age, of course it's prehistory. That doesn't mean we can't know things about it. Female figurines are found everywhere, in ritual contexts, and indeed display a most fascinating range of non-representational plastic art, from Willendorf of 20,000 BCE to the Cycladic figurines dating 15,000 years later. There is tremendous continuity, and this, together with the remnants of non-Indo-European elements in the attested mythologies, it is clear that She was busy for a long, long time. We don't know Her names. We don't know much about Her specific attributes. But to say that we can't know anything about prehistory just because it wasn't written down ignores an awful lot of evidence.

bizmark

Religion is evil and has no place in modern life causes WAY WAY more problums than its worth always has done always will

The Corinthian

Originally posted by PHB
Historically, we are mostly white people, does that mean there should be a place for white people in the constitution?

That’s a very good point, but I would probably say that there would be a valid argument, by the same logic, for a place to race within the constitution. I just think it would also be a very bad idea on balance to do so.

Historically we're always invading people, does that mean there should be a place for invading everyone?

Hardly a uniquely European practice, so no.

Historically we went on lots of crusades, does that mean there should be a special article outlining the rules of a cruasadde and where they can go?

Again, hardly a uniquely European practice, so no.

I think not. The fact that we were does not mean we are now.
****ing hell historically over the last 1000 years we were mostly small nation states, and now we're trying to become one thing.
THINGS CHANGE!

Yes, but it cannot be denied that European’s are in part bound by commonality. Historically, one such commonality is religion and the philosophies and traditions that have come from that religion.

Originally babbled by Yoda
Jupiter and Zeus resided in Rome and Athens, whatever the borders of the empires were.That doesn't mean the North isn't in Europe.

No but it does not make such religions European either simply because a corner of Europe worshiped them. And Zeus resided on Mount Olympus, btw (not sure about Jupiter - the Romans may have changed that one).

Look, what I was saying is that Odin and Zeus and YHWH are all pretty much the same good ol' mythological boys to a great many people, and if one of those fantasies is let in, shouldn't they all?

Christianity has dominated the whole of Europe, for better or worse, for over a millennium. Not Odin or Zeus or the tooth fairy, but Christianity. It has shaped our culture and history, for better or worse. To argue that any other religion or faith has had even a faction of the same impact to Europe is ludicrous.

Regarding the Mother Goddess and the Ice Age, of course it's prehistory. That doesn't mean we can't know things about it.

We know certain things and we have a lot of theories. Undoubtedly there is evidence, but whether we know all that much is debatable. That’s the nature of archaeology.

Even were it not, the fact that the mother goddess seem at best debatable and at worse an archaeological curiosity, would tend to indicate her relevance to modern (and not-even-that-modern) European history and culture is fairly negligible.

Originally posted by bizmark
Religion is evil and has no place in modern life causes WAY WAY more problums than its worth always has done always will

You delivered that with all the passion of a religious zealot. Ironic, innit..?

Yoda

(It was rude to say that I "babbled", Corinthian. There's no need to be rude.)

Apparently you are interpreting "European" as "Pan-European".

Well, it isn't universal any more. I'm not a Christian. I don't "worship" the God of Abraham, what ever "worship" means. I rather like Jesus' thinking, but don't think he was teaching anything much different than the Buddha was (and I like the Gospel of Thomas a lot more than the four canonical gospels). Millions of British subjects are Hindus and Muslims, and the same can be said for the citizens of a lot of other countries today in Europe. Frankly it's offensive to a lot of people to have this

I have tried to show a funny side of this by stating that if one mythological being is going to be enshrined in the Constitution, it would be super to enshrine a lot more. This view tends to irritate Christians because their god is real, of course, and all the others are false.

Well for a lot of people the Christian god is nothing more but an old superstition, and that's why people are saying "don't put it in a European Constitution".

We know certain things and we have a lot of theories. Undoubtedly there is evidence, but whether we know all that much is debatable. That’s the nature of archaeology.

Honestly? We are, actually, able to be pretty confident about many of the reconstructions, which aren't just blind guesses. This isn't the thread for that though.

Even were it not, the fact that the mother goddess seem at best debatable and at worse an archaeological curiosity, would tend to indicate her relevance to modern (and not-even-that-modern) European history and culture is fairly negligible.

You will want to think again, because many of her attributes were transformed by the Church into those of Jesus' mother – who, of course, has none of those attributes in Scripture itself. And then there's Bríd, a good Celtic fire goddess who was turned into a nun by the Church. (There may of course have also been a nun by that name, but Bríd is known to predate her.)

mr_angry

One argument for the inclusion of Christianity in a European constitution is that Europe has fundamentally been shaped by Christian ideology and beliefs - go to Asia if you don’t believe me - they have a completely different way of looking at things there.

I agree with this statement. Christianity has shaped some of our most basic beliefs, many of which are being individually highlighted in the EU constitution, such as human rights, etc. While a lot of these may be common to all religions, you cannot deny that it was Christianity that brought them to us, more or less.

However, I think that's all it deserves a mention for - a passing note on the origins of EU ideology.

sceptre

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Christianity has dominated the whole of Europe, for better or worse, for over a millennium. Not Odin or Zeus or the tooth fairy, but Christianity. It has shaped our culture and history, for better or worse. To argue that any other religion or faith has had even a faction of the same impact to Europe is ludicrous.

Indeed but given that that's a historical fact, it's something that isn't exactly going to change, whether or not religion (a specific one or a general "we've been religious and it's changed stuff" section) gets a mention in the EU constitution.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Yoda
(It was rude to say that I "babbled", Corinthian. There's no need to be rude.)

It was vaguely condescending for you to say I “wondered”.

Apparently you are interpreting "European" as "Pan-European".

And the proposed constitution is not pan-European? Which part of Europe will it represent then?

Well, it isn't universal any more. I'm not a Christian.

So what? Beethoven isn’t in the charts any more, but no one is denying his contribution to European Culture - we even have him for our anthem.

And frankly, and with respects, even if you are not a Christian, it makes little difference to Christianity’s role in European history and culture either.

I don't "worship" the God of Abraham, what ever "worship" means. I rather like Jesus' thinking, but don't think he was teaching anything much different than the Buddha was (and I like the Gospel of Thomas a lot more than the four canonical gospels). Millions of British subjects are Hindus and Muslims, and the same can be said for the citizens of a lot of other countries today in Europe.

What on Earth has this got to do with Christianity’s role in European history and culture? Irrelevant.

I entered this debate only because I saw the same old indignant, knee-jerk, “the Church is evil rants”. I’m sorry if people here (not saying you Yoda - just in general) might have been forced to go to mass as kids, but there you go. Life’s a bitch.

I’m not claiming that Christianity should be part of any constitution, or that it’s not done terrible things over the centuries, or even that it’s anything more than mumbo-jumbo, but I am saying there is a valid historical and cultural argument for its inclusion.

Whether it should on balance be included is another matter.

Frankly it's offensive to a lot of people to have this

That’s very tolerant of you Yoda...

Yoda

Well, what is the reason people want to insert the Christian god into a Pan-European Constitution? "We've been influenced by Christianity"? Well, we've been influenced by Greek ideas of the demokratia. Most of us speak Indo-European languages which displaced the indigenous languages of Europe.

Hm.

Anyone know what the actual draft text of this business is meant to be? That would give us something real to argue about.

I do think that the beginning of Article 44 of the Irish Constitution is a bit, hm, weird, to find in such a document.

PHB

You don't seem to be understanding me.

The fact that Christianity is a part of our past is irrelevant. Just because something is tradition does not in any way shape or form justify its inclusion.
Thats just not a valid argument, as shown by the fact that we were generally white. Another apt comparision is that we had slaves.

You seem to be saying that because its hardly a unique european practice that it shouldn't be included, the example I used is crusades. Christianity isn't uniquly european.

The only half decent argument I've heard for this is that it would make a reference to God in the constitution since religion is generally associated with morality, but that is easily flawed as it assumes that religous people have a higher moral standerd than non religious people.

I am saying there is a valid historical and cultural argument for its inclusion.

You're saying, just to clear this up, that there should be a reference to Christianity in the EU constitution.
Would I go something like this:
"For the past 300 years our culture has been shaped by the main religion in Europe"
Is that it?
Or do you want special treatment[which I doubt you do]

Don't you think whats more important than how Europe was influenced by Christianity/Religion is what it was influenced about.
I don't think theres a place in the constitution for
"We'd like to thank Christianity for getting us on the anti side of the death penalty"
I think the constitution should say
"We ban the death penalty"

The ideal that was changed is what's important, not how it was changed.
All this is under the assumption that the catholic church really did change our ideals, which I don't think is true at all.

It's just like us saying,

"Hey, cheers greek dudes for democracy"

You don't say that, you say
"We are a democracy"

The only reason the church want a reference to god is because it'll move them one step closer to the state.