Religion and Europe

The Corinthian

Originally posted by PHB
You don't seem to be understanding me.

I understand you, I just don’t agree with you.

The fact that Christianity is a part of our past is irrelevant. Just because something is tradition does not in any way shape or form justify its inclusion.

It doesn’t justify its inclusion, but it is an argument for its inclusion.

Thats just not a valid argument, as shown by the fact that we were generally white. Another apt comparision is that we had slaves.

So what? Had slavery been as influential throughout Europe as Christianity then there would be a case to be made for it. But it wasn’t. Nowhere near.

You seem to be saying that because its hardly a unique european practice that it shouldn't be included, the example I used is crusades. Christianity isn't uniquly european.

No, but it is historically based in Europe. It is a European religion, regardless of it’s origins (Yoda has been waxing lyrical of how it bares little resemblance to those origins). There are few other common threads of European culture and history that have had as profound an influence to the shaping of this continent as Christianity.

You're saying, just to clear this up, that there should be a reference to Christianity in the EU constitution.

No I’m not. Read over what I’ve posted.

Or do you want special treatment[which I doubt you do]

You’re a gas man…

The only reason the church want a reference to god is because it'll move them one step closer to the state.

Probably. But we’re not discussing the Church, are we?

I take it your mommy made you go to mass every week..?

Yoda

Here is the text of the Draft Treaty

Chrómetha gár politeía ... chaí ónoma mén diá tó mé és olígous áll' és pleíouas oicheín demochratía chéchleta.
'Our Constitution ... is called a democracy because power is in the hands not of a minority but of the greatest number.'
Thucydides II, 37

Conscious that Europe is a continent that has brought forth civilisation; that its inhabitants, arriving in successive waves from earliest times, have gradually developed the values underlying humanism: equality of persons, freedom, respect for reason,

Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, the values of which, still present in its heritage, have embedded within the life of society the central role of the human person and his or her inviolable and inalienable rights, and respect for law,

Believing that reunited Europe intends to continue along the path of civilisation, progress and prosperity, for the good of all its inhabitants, including the weakest and most deprived; that it wishes to remain a continent open to culture, learning and social progress; and that it wishes to deepen the democratic and transparent nature of its public life, and to strive for peace, justice and solidarity throughout the world,

Convinced that, while remaining proud of their own national identities and history, the peoples of Europe are determined to transcend their ancient divisions and, united ever more closely, to forge a common destiny,

Convinced that, thus "united in its diversity", Europe offers them the best chance of pursuing, with due regard for the rights of each individual and in awareness of their responsibilities towards future generations and the Earth, the great venture which makes of it a special area of human hope,

Grateful to the members of the European Convention for having prepared this Constitution on behalf of the citizens and States of Europe,

[Who, having exchanged their full powers, found in good and due form, have agreed as follows:]

Well, now, it's not so bad. Some people think it is, though. Discussion of this can be found at ReligiousTolerance.org: "German, Italian, Polish and Slovakian delegates favor adding mention of "God" and Europe's Christian heritage. More secular nations, like France, Spain and the Netherlands are in opposition." This site gives a nice balanced report of both sides, and notes that Giscard d'Estaing proposed saying "spiritual, religious, and humanistic" to describe Europe's multiple heritages without reference to any specific deity or religion. Christianity Today discusses the "outrage" some people feel about the failiure "to acknowledge the role of God and Christianity on the continent." (There's that interventionist God again. Or is it the idea of God?) The National Review discusses the "deliberate policy decision by a militantly secularist elite determined to bring about a naked public square barring all opinions based on religious values". (Wow.)

I wonder what sort of text these people want. As I have said, I find the text in our own Constitution ("The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in Reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.") to be rather extreme. Corinthian?

sceptre

cultural, religious and humanist inheritance

I'm good with that. I do find the preamble quoted by Yoda to be rather long-winded though. I suppose there has to be something as an intro.

I'd be fine with "spiritual, religious, and humanistic" as an alternative. It's an intro, not a roadmap - a preamble to a constitution should be far more concerned with why rather than how.