Are mobiles ruining our grammar

Retr0gamer

Well are they. I know that since I got a mobile that could text that I've been dropping more punctuation than praetorian drops shapes at a nightclub. Also I have started using shortened words like ur and l8r by force of habit. Could this be the end of civilisation as we know it?

P.S. Some one give me a moderatorship.;)

Gaz

Originally posted by Retr0gamer
P.S. Some one give me a moderatorship.;)

Why do so many people crave moderator status ? me is baffled

Just seems like work to me. Is it a "power" trip of sorts ?

Anyway yes i get what your saying , im seeing more and more emails with ur and u and stuff like that , it annoys be to be honest.

cowlren

I think texting is just the straw that led the camel to water!? Maybe it was just me but English grammar was non existent beyond similes and metaphors in my secondary school. I couldn't tell a first clause from santa.

It only hit home when i was trying to learn german in college. It was embarrassing how ignorant I was in describing what was supposedly my first language. I still come across problems when helping foreign colleagues. I might be able to give them the correct form of a word or phrase but I can't explain why.

So I think txting is only changing the way we spell and abbreviate, grammar was pretty much ruined already.

Orwell wrote a good argument against the decay of the english language here

Politics and The English Language

Retr0gamer

Why do so many people crave moderator status

Yes it's a power trip. Imagine how satisfying it would be to ban a muppet.

I've noticed a big deterioration (theres an example) in my writing since I started using mobiles.

Retr0gamer

What about all those CS geeks that use CS monkey geek speak as I call it such as 'm3 l33t u is suxor! I rulz'. God i'd love to slap the english language out of their faces.

Shinji

Nice generalisation there, Retrogamer. Some of the people on boards.ie with by far the best grammar and expression are among the CS players, for what it's worth...

SMS abbreviations are certainly an annoying new trait in the English language, although I can understand the need for them to a certain degree in the context of text messaging - after all, a phone keypad is not exactly an ideal input device.

However, when people with a perfectly functional keyboard in front of them decide that they need to type as though they were using a Nokia 3310, there's simply no excuse for it - unless you count "laziness" and "ignorance" as excuses.

It's the same deal as any form of sloppy English at the end of the day, though; if you can't be bothered putting the effort into making your post or email clear, readable and concise, then why should I bother expending the effort required to read it?

seamus

Originally posted by Retr0gamer
What about all those CS geeks that use CS monkey geek speak as I call it such as 'm3 l33t u is suxor! I rulz'. God i'd love to slap the english language out of their faces.

Most of that (especially on these boards) is just taking the piss.

I wouldn't be sure about it tbh. I was in 6th year before I got a mobile, and even before that, the only abbreviations I used in chatrooms were the usual - tbh, omg, etc. I have yet to see emails packed full of 'txtspk', but when I see it on boards, I don't think it's a matter of the poster having bad grammar, it's just pure ignorance, and a belief that all electronic communication is acceptable in this bastardised form. As a moderator, I tend to delete such posts without comment, and as a poster I tend to ignore the poster's point because if he hasn't the respect to express himself clearly, then I haven't the patience to respect his point.

I have still to get a (formal) email or a typed letter from someone containing such grammar. If I did, I'd make well sure they heard about it!

davej

Thanks for the link, interesting reading.

I think the advent of email/internet and text messaging has been a mixed blessing in terms of english usage to be honest. In many ways it has increased the power of the written word. What once could only have been discussed by phone or face to face can now be conducted through a written medium. This has given a new prominence to the written word, and those who have a good command of it have benefited greatly in this respect.

Also I guess it could be argued that text messaging has forced people to be as succinct as possible. They have to communicate their message clearly and concisely. This is about the only pro I can think of. Just about everything else about text messaging is detrimental to language.

I think it has also helped highlight the fact that there are a vast amount of people out there who have very poor literacy skills.

davej

Retr0gamer

I was only joking about getting serious about the CS speak but it does annoy me when people use it in e-mails and posts because they think it's cool. I know it's handy in a CS match and not all players use it all the time but there are a few that do.

I find myself using text abreviations sometimes in e-mails and it annoys me firstly that I actually made them and secondly trying to correct them.

Eh, I think davej put it better than me.

simu

Yup, they should definitely teach more grammar in secondary schools. I've taught at uni level and it's amazing how many otherwise intelligent students don't understand basic grammatical concepts.
It's assumed that English grammar is 'obvious' and that all students can write grammatically and this means that those who haven't grasped grammatical rules (for example the difference between "I did" and "I have done" and why "I done" is wrong) get left behind.

I find, however, that using messageboards is good for my English! You have to be sure that your message is clear and unambiguous, otherwise you end up being misunderstood!

As for teachers who complain about students using textspeak in essays : all they have to do is explain the concept of different registers of language e.g formal, informal etc and explain that while abbreviations are acceptable where the space for writing is limited, no one will take, say a letter to a newspaper or an article on politics seriously if it is written in that style.

Shinji

Yup, they should definitely teach more grammar in secondary schools. I've taught at uni level and it's amazing how many otherwise intelligent students don't understand basic grammatical concepts.

Myself and my housemate have been corresponding with some Japanese people in an attempt to improve our Japanese; on their end, they hope to improve their English. As such, we end up explaining aspects of English grammar regularly.

I'm shocked by how hard I have to think about a lot of stuff, and how often I have to say "I just don't know" to special cases where something is wrong but I have no idea why.

I've been a professional writer for seven years. I've won prizes through school and then in a professional context for my ability in the English language and the clarity of my writing. All modesty aside, this is what I'm best at - and quite frankly, my actual grasp of how English grammar works is tenuous at best. I simply understand instinctively, when writing or speaking, how things should be structured.

Most people are the same with their first language, I've found. The problem arises not when we fail to educate people in grammatical rules; the problem arises when people stop reading, and hence stop being exposed on a constant basis to correct forms of language.

Those who read a lot have excellent English; those who don't, attempt to write as they would speak and make a mess of it. Encourage people to switch off Big Brother and pick up a book, and you'll fix a lot of things about our literacy as a people.

smiles

Well, personally my phone hasn't made any difference to my grammer, tend to always have it on the T9 dictionary thing and so it actually makes me improve my spelling, otherwise the word isn't detected.

<< Fio >>

simu

Well, I'm not saying the more theoretical aspects of grammar should be taught in secondary school (though it's a topic that fascinates me) but I do think that basic grammatical concepts should be taught, perhaps using examples from the literary texts students read. This would also have to be put into a practical context - for example, getting students to write articles/stories regularly.

Some ppl pick up grammar intuitively but for others, it makes more sense when it's presented as a communication protocol, allowing great flexibility, but within a framework of rules.

Another thing that amazes me is how, if you study more than one language at school (as nearly everyone does), the grammer of each is taught as something relevant to that particular language only. It makes more sense if the teachers compare the grammer of different languages and point out where they are similar or where they differ. For example, the genitive case exists in both Irish and German - if this is pointed out to students who study both languages, they'll have learnt one concept that applies to 2 different languages rather than having to learn the same idea twice.

jd

I believe if people lose the habit of writing well constructed essays/articles/letters etc their grammar, sentence construction, and spelling denigrate rapidly. I read some of my old Leaving Cert Essays a while ago and I felt ashamed of myself, or rather of the way I communicate these days. I got a B in the Leaving in English(nearly 20 years ago, and it was more difficult to get higher grades then), I doubt I'd get a D at the moment..

I don't blame it on email, or text messaging; rather my own laziness, and the fact that I didn't put pen to paper (does anybody still do it?) for x years..

jd

Originally posted by Shinji
Those who read a lot have excellent English; those who don't, attempt to write as they would speak and make a mess of it. Encourage people to switch off Big Brother and pick up a book, and you'll fix a lot of things about our literacy as a people.

Too true,
(Time to read Tom Mcguane again, instead of a crappy fishing magazine)..
but the encouraging thing is that after reading just 1 or 2 good books you find your own writing skills improving.
jd
/me runs off to find those two books..

ColinM

I've had a rant about this building up for a long time now, but I'm going to try to keep this fairly constructive rather than go off on one!
The subject is whether or not mobile text-speak is ruining our grammar, but I think you also mean to include spelling with that.
In answer to the general question, I don't think texting in itself has made people worse at spelling or grammar. I think more people than not couldn't spell or had much of a concept of grammar anyway even before sms messaging became so widespread. Text-speak has just become so ubiquitous that it has given them the excuse to not bother trying to spell words correctly or construct a sentence according to any rules of grammar.

Now I 've been reading boards since about this time last year, and I read here almost every day. I only registered in November last though, and as you can see from my post count, I don't post often, so I read alot more posts than I write.
I find myself getting more and more infuriated at having to read posts on these boards with bad grammar, bad spelling, and alot of text-speak abbreviations thrown in aswell. When I see posts like these, I find them a major annoyance to have to decipher. If a post is written like this, it's usually the case that it's a pretty badly thought out post aswell.
I am noticing a definite increase in the amount of posts that make the same basic spelling and grammatical mistakes aswell. This could be because other people pick up bad spelling and grammar from posts already on boards and see other people using sms abbreviations and decide to use them in their own posts. (Perhaps Boards is just as resposible as mobile phones for the decline in standards!)
If there is anyone who considers himself or herself to be an intelligent person, and is aware of their poor spelling and grammar, consider this: No matter what it is that you are writing about, if there are alot of basic spelling and grammatical mistakes in your post, I'm going to assume that you aren't a very intelligent person. Please understand that I'm not trying to anger anyone by saying that - it's not that I'm deliberately setting out to presume that I'm more intelligent than you. It's just that there isn't alot to go on when you are trying to gauge the quality of someone's opinion or advice, and I think most people's instincts would be to equate poor spelling and grammar with a poor intellect.
Now as I said at the beginning, I have felt like ranting about this before, but I think I have succeeded in keeping this fairly constructve. I had felt like ranting about all the common mistakes that I'm fed up of reading, but I do think that it may actually be constructive to list some of the most common mistakes I see, and maybe some people might find them useful. (Feel free to add any common ones I have not thought of to this. Hey - maybe this could become an all boards stickie!!) So, here I go...

Common mistakes:
1) Apostrophies and when to use them:
a) To represent one or more missing letters from a word (or conjoined word): Don't (instead of Do not)
b) Before an "s" to signify ownership - eg: Brian's apple.

A note about the word "it":
If something is belonging to an "it", you do not write "it's" to signify ownership. That is because rule a and b from above are in conflict, and rule a takes precedence - "it's" always means "it is".

Words that end in "s":
If a word naturally ends with the letter "s", you don't put an apostrophie before the "s". If a word is a plural, you are only putting an "s" there to signify that there is more than one, not that there is ownership going on, so again, no apostrophie. Sometimes you do have ownership going on with more than one of something, in which case you put the apostrophie after the plural "s". As far as I know, it is equally correct to include or omit another "s" after the apostrophie in these cases.
That may be confusing, so here's some examples:
A word that naturally ends in "s": osmosis (no apostrophie)
More than one teacher: teachers (no apostrophie)
A book belonging to a teacher: The teacher's book. (ownership)
Something belonging to more than one teacher: The teachers' lounge.

Now that all that is understood, the reason for other mistakes should be more evident.
The difference between "they're", "their" and "there" should now be more obvious if you know the rules above, but just to spell it out:
"They're" is a contraction of "They are" and the apostrophie is in place of the "a".
"Their" is referring to ownership by a group - eg: Their website.
"There" is, of course, not here!

Another common mistake:
If you ever write something in the conditional tense like "I would of" as in "I would of gone swimming if it had been warmer", what you mean is "I would have".

Ok, that's all I can think of for now. I'd like to say again, that I don't mean to get anyone's hackles up by posting this, and I hope I haven't come across as condecending. As I said before, I could have gone off on a rant about this, but I tried to make this a constructive post that maybe some people might find informative.

One last thing - I felt it would be cheating to spell check this post, so I didn't. It would be nice and ironic if there were some glaring spelling and grammatical mistakes in my post, and if I'm going to be hoisted by my own petard then I guess I deserve it!

simu

How ironic - apostrophe has no "i" in it.:)

However, your explantion of how apostrophes are used is good.
It would be a good idea to start a thread on common grammar and spelling mistakes.

ColinM

That's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. Well, obviously I'm very embarrassed, but not as much as I would have been had I not predicted it!

davej

I've had a rant about this building up for a long time now,

Judging by the posts in this thread, I think you are preaching to the converted.

I felt it would be cheating to spell check this post, so I didn't.

There is nothing wrong with using a spellchecker; as long as one resolves to learn from one's mistakes. I'm guessing you won't forget the spelling of "apostrophe" in a hurry!

However, your explantion of how apostrophes are used is good.

"explantion" ?

Dis cud go on 4ever :rolleyes:

davej

cowlren

Preaching to the converted can easily happen in threads like this. I still think that the method of teaching English in Irish schools is severely lacking.

By reading literature and doing repetitive exercises recognising grammar we end up writing and speaking 'properly' by the exams. Unfortunately we are not examined on our knowledge of grammatical structure or rules so they are not being taught. Well they weren't to me.

mavedic

It does seem strange to me anyway that in school we were never taught much english grammar apart from the simple stuff like what a noun and an adverb is. Whenever another language was taught though like french or german one of the first things you learn is grammar - it was embarrassing when one of our french teachers had to teach us what different tenses were and when and how to use them in english before she could teach us them in french!

Getting back to the original question, I don't think mobile phones ruin our grammar. People with bad grammar and bad spelling are much more prone to using text abbreviations. It can be very annoying when you're trying to decipher all those annoying abbreviations. I always use t9 and generally use proper spelling and grammar when texting unless i run out of space. When it comes to emails and letters I don't think there's any excuse for bad spelling (obviously the occasional typo is ok) apart from laziness or ignorance, or possibly a bad education system.

Sev

I used to type like that on irc and the likes, found it kind of useful. Then I learned to type really really fast and I cant really see a need for it anymore. Instead I find myself just doing the opposite, trying to articulate as clear and explicit to communiate.

ecksor

Originally posted by Sev
I used to type like that on irc and the likes, found it kind of useful. Then I learned to type really really fast and I cant really see a need for it anymore. Instead I find myself just doing the opposite, trying to articulate as clear and explicit to communiate.

Classic.

ColinM

Judging by the posts in this thread, I think you are preaching to the converted.

Right so Dave, well can someone ask Devore or one of the other admins to stick it into every other forum so that I can preach to the unconverted then!

There is nothing wrong with using a spellchecker; as long as one resolves to learn from one's mistakes. I'm guessing you won't forget the spelling of "apostrophe" in a hurry!

Yeah, I know - I just figured that if I was going to have high expectations for everyone else then I should expect as much or more from myself expecially for that particular post. (It was kind of a fairness thing - in the same way as I didn't check the rules of grammar I was writing about so that if I was wrong about anything people could take me up on it. Hey - I may be still wrong about one of them - I'm not dead sure about the adding an extra s or not being equally correct when the word already ends in an s or is a plural).
As for learning from one's mistakes - yeah - sure I won't forget how to spell apostrophe. Actually - about that - I think it's quite a good defense to say that in fairness - how often do you actually write the word apostrophe? Only when you're bolliking on about people not using them properly!
On the point about learning from your mistakes - do you notice alot of posters using (sp?) after a word they think they might have not spelt right? Well I don't know why they don't just look it up on an online dictionary. You're already on the Internet - so why not?

Dis cud go on 4ever

Yeah - I noticed you made a few spelling mistakes there yourself.
Only messing! But yeah - it could have - you're bound to make one or two typos or a genuine spelling mistake in a post really. But that's not the kind of thing we're talking about though is it?
It's dis kinduv l33t fone txt s'hit dat ur seen evry day m8, rite?

By reading literature and doing repetitive exercises recognising grammar we end up writing and speaking 'properly' by the exams. Unfortunately we are not examined on our knowledge of grammatical structure or rules so they are not being taught. Well they weren't to me.

Yeah cowlren, I can't really honestly remember whether I was taught grammar in English class, whether in primary or secondary. Maybe we were in primary, but I suppose it was assumed that by secondary we all knew how to read and write and could move on to Shakespeare and so on. I know that there were one or two lads in my class when I started in secondary school who really couldn't read that well by then though. (Again, I'm not trying to say I'm better than anyone. I've been lucky enough to have come from a background where reading was encouraged. Plus, I wanted to read, and I didn't find it difficult, so I can't really say I achieved anything much by doing something that came easy to me.)
I guess teachers in secondary feel that they have enough to do with the curriculum and have to assume that you can read and write and have been taught grammer if they are to get on with the coursework.

Whenever another language was taught though like french or german one of the first things you learn is grammar - it was embarrassing when one of our french teachers had to teach us what different tenses were and when and how to use them in english before she could teach us them in french!

Yeah mavedic, I think most foreign language teachers find that they have to teach their students english grammar first and probably resent it quite alot. Incidentally - are there any teachers reading this? What do you think? Have any kids these days got good written english skills? Or do none of them want to learn anything and you hate your job and wonder why you ever became a teacher? Do you hate that people always tell you that the long holidays must be great too?!

Classic.

(Seems really stupid to be quoting one word there but anyway...)
To be fair ecksor, I reckon Sev was just typing so fast there that he skipped over a couple of letters (and maybe one or two words). I've done that myself - I'm a pretty fast typer (on some tests I can get up to 70wpm) and oftentimes I type faster than I can think!

josh40

I teach English as a foreign language and I found your use of "I'm fed up of" quite amusing! It's Irish English, you know!

Actually, the way we use English in Ireland can be quite different from the way it's used in other English speaking countries.

I taught myself English grammar, when I started teaching English, I can't ever remember being taught grammar or any decent writing skills at school.I don't know if things have changed but in my days, the teaching of English was really lacking.

It can sometimes be useful to point out how certain languaged use certain grammar points in common. You have to be really careful though, before I learned Greek well , I always assumed that because something was referred to as present continuous in Greek, it was the same as present continuous in English. It turns out that it's used completely differently.

I must take my daughter off to her English lesson now, I'll come back to this.

I really take exception to the poster who equates good language skills with intelligence , though!

simu

I bought a mobile phone recently and reading through the brochure and my contract last night, I discovered that O2 staff seem to be unaware of how to use apostrophes correctly! THis is shocking - that contract is supposed to be a legally binding document!

Josh40, I know we use English differently in Ireland - that dosen't necessarily mean its incorrect - how many Irish people know the difference between "shall" and "will", for instance? I had friends who went to speech and drama classes when they were children and they were expected to pronounce certain words as would BBC presenters , which seemed silly - they usde the "correct" pronunciation only in class, the rest of the time, they'd use the normal Irish pronunciation. For example, it appears that the word "many" should be pronounced "miny"! Perhaps the government/Irish universities should compile a grammar of Irish English, and give guidelines as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

josh40

All types of Irish English are acceptable but may not be readily understood by people from other countries. This is of course ,also true of all other forms of English.

Mobile phone or computer English are all valid forms of jargon but it does get a bit annoying when people use them in everyday conversation and writing.

Nobody should ever try to change their pronunciation.I'm an examiner for a number of "English as a foreign language" organizations and we credit anyone who has an accent from any country where English is spoken as a first language.The idea of acceptable accents has become far more inclusive , proper order too.

seamus

In fairness, on the apostrophe/grammar front, it's very obvious who doesn't know their grammar and who's just messed up their typing.

From time to time, I'll notice a post or IRC comment where I've used the wrong "they're". It's not because I don't know how to use it or where to use it, but because I'm just typing too fast. Like a bit of a buffer - my head is thinking all of the words, and my hands are storing them up as they come in, so sometimes I'm not actually thinking of the word that I'm typing, and the wrong one creeps in.

Other times, "don't" will lose its apostrophe, or the wrong "it's" will be used.

But as I say, it's obvious the difference when such mistakes are a once-off, and when someone's post is littered with horrible grammar and spelling.

Yoda

As a typesetter, I take some measure of pride in always writing and punctuating correctly when I send text messages.

Of course there was that line in Quills "The compulsives we have set the type..."

I'd sure like a T9 for Irish though. See http://www.evertype.com/books.html if you'd like to know why.

Talliesin

Originally posted by seamus
From time to time, I'll notice a post or IRC comment where I've used the wrong "they're".

At least normal English has enough redundancy that you can normally work out what people mean. I did the same thing with an abbreviation yesterday on a technical matter and ended up saying something completely different to my intention.

As for TXT SPLLNG, l33t sp33k, and so on. One good thing about it is that there are a subset of those who use them who are being genuinely creative with the way they do so. That's always to be encouraged I think.

Anyway, "strict in what you send, liberal in what you receive"…