Im not happy about the way the For Sale Board is being moderated....!

Vexorg

By The Muppet

Thank You Tomnoc
Thanks for the pm regarding the correct type of ram to use in my G4.

Its A pity that you were banned for trying to be be helpful to me.

Is Every one who sends a pm to a user here going to be banned and if so why have the feature enabled at all.

All seems very childish to me seems like the mod has Power overload?.

Reply from Vexorg

If you read the rules you would understand why people get banned.. its not for trying to be helpful.... its because the mods have nothing better to do.

Sadly when one is made a mod of these forums their physic powers, which previously would have allowed them to know the contents of the helpful pm (probably less than .01%) and the off thread dealing (probably 99.9% of pms and emails) which we are trying to stop.

If either of you had bothered to read the rules a) the pm would not have been mentioned on thread, and b) you would have warned him that pms were not allowed or c) the intelligent thing would have been to say pm sent about mac ram - not dealing off forum....

however, you were relying on the mod super powers to figure that one out, and sadly its one of the few super powers that we would dearly like, but to gain it we would lose the power to ban, and Im sure you can see the dilemma.

Good point about turning off the pm feature... oh dear why didnt we think of that one..... gosh in the five years we've been running boards.ie and we never tought of that.... (reminder to self, sarcasmism super power is nearly blunt, get sharpened - Id send myself a pm only i might get banned oh no please dont ban me).

So muppet if you feel this guy was treated harshly, why didnt you send me a pm saying so.... why have your little snipe at the mod powers here?...


Rgds....



Vex.

reply from Static

Watch out Vexorg! There's a quite a drop if you were to fall from that pedestal.

Seriously, you could have just warned him, there's no need to rush into bannings. Some would claim a little ego trip.

*expects thread to be closed/moved*

reply from Kali

Err how are people supposed to make arrangements for meeting?

Otherwise threads will be full of:

"Hi The Muppet. I will give you 80 for the ram. my telephone number is 0876764534, meet me at the bottom of grafton street at 6pm on tuesday. I will be wearing the red hat."

I've bought dozens of items off the boards.. and I for one aint posting mine or anyone elses details on any thread

The Muppet

Ayou can see from other opinions here some of us regard the rule as unfair and unnecessary and the last time i checked i lived in a democracy so that entitles me to my opinion. I

I also find your attitude contadictive i must have hit a nerve with my post on the for sale board but why ask that i pm my complaint to you would that not be breaking your Precious rules
{ after all that is waht you banned tomnoc for.} or are you excluded from the open and above board approach you demand the rest of us to use.

Finally If you are on some kind of power trip thats your problem but i am not impressed by your actions.

At least you could be have the decency to admit your mistake and revoke your petty ban.

Vexorg

The muppet...

There is no off thread dealing allowed anymore... the usually meaning of pm sent is I have made an offer off thread... there is no way of knowing what the contents of the pm were... Its unfortunate that in this instance the contents were not oof thread dealing, its easy to put a note as other poeople have done saying this is not an offer... etc...

Its not possible to switch off the pm feature

The reason for the banning is its the only way to get peoples attention. if we temp ban the offenders they will read the rules the next time, it takes many time longer to reply to someone asking them to stop, to send a pm etc and have the next muppet so exactely the same thing. Its only a few clicks to ban them for not reading the rules, so it saves hours of work everyweek.

Static

Years of warnings and moderation made no difference, if banning offenders is the only way to get your attention, then banning it will be. If you spent a lot of time asking people nicely to stop breaking the rules and it continued for months, what would you do? Do yu have nay experience moderating forums to even hazard a guess at the amount of time it can take? No one gets paid or makes money here, its all voluntary.... why should we make work for ourselves when a small percenatge of people make life hard for us? Just ban them and let them do the running and the explaining.... Many banned individuals have been unbanned.

Whats the problem with insisting that the rules to reduce the workload of the mods is adhered to?

Kali

The no pm/no email rule is for off thread dealing only... not for giving conatct details.... its obvious that if someone has made an offer and its been accepted that personal details are not to be put on a public forum... its obvious that a pm in this instance if no off thread dealing..... However a pm immediately after someone posts on a thread is likely to be an off thread offer and a bannable offence.

Some people do not like the rules and thats fine, their function is two fold, to make all transactions transparent and fair and to reduce the workload of the mods.


Im open to suggestions on how to improve the forum, however the level of muppety had diminished to the level that most peoples are now people not reading the rules, there is no easy way to force people to read the rules apart from the actions we are now taking. And lets be honest... its not trake big a part of peoples lives if they cant read the classified section is it?

Is there a better way to do it?.. remember it must not increase the workload.. that will reduce the liklihodd of it not happening again.

The forums cannot be made to not have pm or email on the classified section, not can it be hacked to force people to read the rules before they post... remember we have been trying this for a long time now.


Vex.

Hyzepher

I have to say that I am with Vex on this one. I see no need for anyone to conduct the bargaining of an item outside the thread. As Vex has said - you can close the sale (address/phone) via PM but no offers etc.

The issue lies with grey areas - if you relate to a PM in your thread without explaining the contents (i.e. non sale related) then the mods, in an attempt to control the boards, must assume that the PM was breaking the rules.

Hyzepher

Static

Hmm..

Look, it's understandable that the for sale forum does see some high traffic, but bans shouldn't be dished out so quickly, unless it's some *blatant* rule breaking, ie, commercial selling, which anybody with clue would kinda think about before posting.

If you're tired giving warnings about the rules to different people the whole time, then perhaps the way things are done should be changed, or perhaps you should stop modding.

A suggestion (involves a code change to vBulleting), would be a setting each forum could have, in a list (*VERY* short) of basic rules should be displayed right above the main text field.. Adds to the clutter, but it's a suggestion. Trusting people to read that seperate rules discussion isn't going to work.

static.

Hyzepher

Static

I think if you were given a week of modding the For Sale forum you would quickly chnage your tune.

You assume that Vex etc al have the time to treat each case individually - they dont. If you cant be bothered to read the rules then you should be prepared to take the consequences.

Hyzepher

Mr. Fancypants

I dont belive the mods are stopping PMS being sent after the close of a deal to get contact details etc. They just want to stop dealings been taken off the boards to allow everyone have a fair deal. It would also stop the ridiculous "PM Sent" or "Your PM box is full" messages.

That all sounds understandable to me, it will take a few weeks of pain before its sorts itself out tho', i imagine. Personally, i think Vexorg and the other For Sale mods have done a huge amount of good work on that board.

One suggestion i would make is to make the PM rule a little clearer, especially as its a one strike and your banned for a week. Maybe have a warning in the template so that a message warning against PM's appears at the end of every starting message? Not a huge change, but i think it would help stop the increasing amount of bannings.

Vexorg

The muppet....

What ever gave you the idea that boards.ie was a democracy, you have absolutely no rights here what-so-ever. You are free to say what you want to say within reason, but its never been a democracy to the best of my knowledge, in fact its owed by a group of 5 or 6 nerds who have paid for the upkeep for the last 5 or 6 years.

Would you please stop misquoting the pm rule.... pms are allowed, what is not allowed is off thread dealing. Read the rules.

Your feelings about the rules does not interest me, if you dont like them go elsewhere, one of their functions is to reduce the workload of the mods, what I am interested in is constructive critisism, useful feedback that does not increase the mods workload and still makes the for sale forum transactions transparent.

Vexorg

Template change on the way... i like the way you think Mbroaders.

There will be a rules clean up shortly, in the meantime... any constructive suggestions are welcome....

By constructive, dont post..... I dont like the no pm rule give reasons why and why alternative there are.....


Even tho its not a democracy here, just a few power hungry mods looking for kicks, you can shape the way the forums are run
with some good arguements......


Vex.

Static

Originally posted by Hyzepher
Static

I think if you were given a week of modding the For Sale forum you would quickly chnage your tune.

You assume that Vex etc al have the time to treat each case individually - they dont. If you cant be bothered to read the rules then you should be prepared to take the consequences.

Hyzepher

Alright, I'll bow out of this conversation. Last thing I want to be doing is debating with Vexorg groupies.

Vex, point taken.

Gordon

Yeah that Vex has a growing following of flunkies too, whenever he goes to the toilet a myriad of nubile young ladies warm the seat, throw rose petals on the floor and hand towels warmed by the underneath of their pert young breasts to him.

Quite a lucky chappy.

Vexorg

If you're tired giving warnings about the rules to different people the whole time, then perhaps the way things are done should be changed, or perhaps you should stop modding.

Since we changed the way things were done from polite conversation resulting in lots of extra work, to nice and easy banning, the level of work has dropped dramatically... and so will continue until the forum becomes self policing... when someone breaks a rule, the other members point it out = reduced modding and very few bans hopefully, .. it will take a while but it will be worth the wait.

You seem to think that the forums are new and that we have not tried different things why is that?

Regarding stop modding.... tee hee hee with the groupies and the flunkies and the immense sense of self importance and teh very high and shaky pedestal, we'd be mad to stop.

Vexorg

A thought just struck me...

I could not understand why banning someone was stirring up peoples emotions.

The bans that people recieve in the for sale section are in the main temperory (a week, they need to come back and ask to be let back in - again offenders do the running) and they are only banned from the classified forums... all 7 or 8 forums... there are 250 other forums that they can still use!.

Maybe this was obvious.. maybe not.....


Vex.

Kali

Ok.. a few points.. if these can be cleared up .. cool.

a) Why do offers have to be moderated? A sale is between two people... what the buyer chooses to pay and what the seller choose to accept is not up to anyone else... and especially not the moderator, nor does an offer between two parties explicitly have to be public knowledge.

b) Whats the problem with a rule for the seller that simply says "When the sale has been completed post to that effect"... obviously to avoid one of the pitfalls of PMs, that being the contining of posts and offers for an already arranged sale.

c) Rules. Have two threads. One for buying one for selling. Forcing people to read through crap that doesn't affect them is pointless.

flav0rflav

The more rules there are, the more rule enforcing there has to be. The more enforcing, the more moding? Who wanted to reduce the workload?

Vexorg

Kali in an attempt to answer your questions

a) the for sale forum has evolved to where it is now over a number years... As it is a public forum by posting an item for sale and posting offers in public is what happens on 90% of threads, why should we not insist that all thread do it that way. This way the dealing are transparent, less likely to be a scam, all questions can be seen by everyone so one person does not ask a question by pm and another posts the same question on forum etc etc.


The most important things to me about the board are its fair to everyone and doesnt add to my workload or the other mods, I cant see why people feel the need to make offers by pm or email. I personally dont like to see a number of people making offers and the seller comes back with, I have an offer of X by pm or email, maybe he does, but its fairer when its all on thread.

I not sure where you are coming from with "what the buyer chooses to pay and what the seller choose to accept is not up to anyone else... and especially not the moderator, nor does an offer between two parties explicitly have to be public knowledge"

Are you saying that people should post what they like and no need for mods in the for sale forum?

I dont really understand your point b) and there is a rule that says please post when an item is sold.....

C) The problem is not the rules per se, its the fact the the rules are not read, wheter the rules are crap or not is not the problem it the fact that they are not read... hence taking action that bring the rules to people attention.

Vex.

Vexorg

Flavorflav,

just jumping on the bandwagon i see...

The workload has reduced dramatically since we started enforcing the rules with temp bans from classified and making those banned come ask why..... as opposed to asking them not to break the rules again, editing posts and getting into long drawn out pm argurments over power hungry mods to you suk and so on.


The rules... funnily enough have come from the forums users asking things like cant you stop the silly offers, whats the point in having a forum when people accept offers by pm or claim to ... where were you when we were drawing up the rules and asked for feedback.

As I said before these sorts of comments are useless without something constructive... if there is a problem, dont just say there is a problem, give us a solution, in the main the rules describe what there are there to protect against, why not read them and suggest a better way to enforce them and obviously one that has not been tried before.....

DeVore

See! SEE!! And you all call me the evil one!

From my pov, we have never really been happy with the for sale board and we're trying a few things out.

We need to get a handle on how its running itself and how we want to manage it.

All change is pain, this is change and we have to settle things down to a non-painful state.

DeV.

flav0rflav

Can I also get on the Free Market Economics bandwagon, to try and raise the tone of the debate?

Vexorg

You may...

as long as the solution is obvious!.....


If your bandwagon is going thru town, any chance of a lift?


V.

The Muppet

"you have absolutely no rights here what-so-ever"


vexorg

Sorry to contradict you but tis is a public forum and as such i do have rights.

I suggest you get off your high horse and jus mod the group properly instead of acting like a dictator. If Your are incapable of that maybe a change of Hobby for you may be in order.

Gordon

Heh

seamus

Originally posted by The Muppet
"you have absolutely no rights here what-so-ever"


vexorg

Sorry to contradict you but tis is a public forum and as such i do have rights.

I suggest you get off your high horse and jus mod the group properly instead of acting like a dictator. If Your are incapable of that maybe a change of Hobby for you may be in order.

lol

tbh

ecksor

Originally posted by The Muppet
Sorry to contradict you but tis is a public forum and as such i do have rights.

You have the right to remain silent. Shut the **** up.

ironbrew

Ah, im not trying to interupt but this conversation is great advertising. Im sure the For Sale board will be getting a little more traffic now. I sure am gonna give it a visit.:D

P.S- Thanks for the 15 mniutes of enlightment!:)

DeVore

Originally posted by The Muppet
"you have absolutely no rights here what-so-ever"


vexorg

Sorry to contradict you but tis is a public forum and as such i do have rights.

I suggest you get off your high horse and jus mod the group properly instead of acting like a dictator. If Your are incapable of that maybe a change of Hobby for you may be in order.

You have certain civil and human rights that are inalienable (like the right to life etc) but I'm curious which other rights you are refering to on a privately-owned website?

Exactly what is your complaint as well? Were you not aware of that rule? Do you have a suggestion for a better way to mod beyond just disagreeing with Vex?

DeV.

jabaroon

Just throwing my support into the mix.....

I too believe that the Classified boards are not being moderated correctly. Vexorg -- you are creating work for yourself and then complaining that you are too busy.

You are banning people first, then justifying later. Logic dictates it should be the other way around. This is the way society functions and more importantly -- has evolved to function.

Most importantly -- the policy of ticking the ban flag and then sitting back to relax and forget has GOT to be creating exponential amounts of work for you. People keep asking the same questions:

- Why am I banned
- Can I get un-banned
- When do I get un-banned
- Why didn't you also ban....

Answers such as:
- Coz you are - read the rule
- We'll see
- Whenever

Are not exactly helpfull, informative or calming -- they are inflamitory.

I have no idea about your personal background, what you do in the real world or how effective you are at doing it. Suffice to say, that you are no doubt aware that "bad communication" is continuously cited in modern society as one of the leading disablers. The mechanism, methods and policies through which the classifieds forums are administered and moderated are VERY clearly symptomatic of inadequate and poor communication.

It is not sufficient to say that you are not paid to perform your duties and therefore feel justified in underperforming at them. If you want to do it, then do. If you do it, then do it well. If you cant do it well, then dont do it. If you dont do it, rest asured that there will be a long queue of power hungry individuals who will be more than happy to fill your shoes.

- Stop banning people for trivial things
- Adopt a more friendly and helpfull attitude
- Analyse, understand -- THEN react, not the other way around
- Communicate your intentions, implications, criteria etc...
- Seek help if you cannot cope.

Vexorg, I challenge you to undertake the above actions and watch your workload decrease -- but more imporantly -- the satisfaction of your customers INCREASE.

jabaroon

Vexorg, regardless of the accuracy of the statement:

"What ever gave you the idea that boards.ie was a democracy, you have absolutely no rights here what-so-ever"

What point were you trying to make through stating it? Did you feel that making such a statement was going to make people think "ohh...well in that case, my apologies, sorry about that, bye bye". Surely you thought locically about publishing such a statement; what positive outcomes did you feel would be achieved through stating it in a forum where the mood was quite obviously tense? How would you feel if you were to call your PC supplier to complain that it was defective and were told that you had "absolutely no rights ... what-so-ever" (for whatever reason)? Such a response would clearly make you:

A) Happy, content, satisfied, empowered, motivated
Upset, angry, belittled, disabled

People do have one right that can never be 'banned'. That is the right to choose. How many services (and web sites) do you know of that have spawned through dissatisfaction with a compeditor? Just a thought.

ecksor

We're not here to piss people off (well, most people, we take pleasure in pissing some people off but I digress), but we're not here to pander to the 'customer' as you put it either. We're a bit weird like that I guess. We would like to achieve world domination (or at least I'd like us to be the centre for community related internet services in Ireland), but we're basically just doing our thing and people seem to like it in general.

Anyway, we're not actually afraid of competition. Why would we be? I don't think anyone can set out to copy us and succeed, but that's not the point, we have no reason to not want other websites to succeed. The For Sale forums have been getting a lot of silly behaviour lately and I guess the inevitable result of that is an increase of bans and perhaps the threshold for receiving a ban is lower than it would have been otherwise. In any case, it's good to get a thread like this where things are brought out into the open, suggestions are made, things are clarified etc. In general we do listen to our users and if we like a suggestion then we'll take it on board.

Offering advice on how to do it better reads a bit odd when you seem to view us as some sort of dot-com. Also, using words such as 'inadequate' and 'underperforming' seems to contradict the approach of not using inflammatory language that you advocate.

jabaroon

The following is a cut&paste from another post of mine. I am pasting it here as there seems to be some indication that I may not have fully read or understood the entire content of the thread -- I have and do !!

---- snip

---

I have and did read the entire set of post before submitting my view. The fact that you have this concern suggests that I have not made my point too well. I would like to address (what I believe) to be your two concerns:

I am not suggesting that a nicely nicely approach to moderation is in order. I am suggesting that an approach that focuses on polite and informative communication is likely to yield better results.

For example, consider the current approach:

"You have been temporairly banned. Read the rules".

Now consider the alternative sent both as a PM to the user and in the normal way:

"You have been temporairly banned for failing to adhere to the rules. Specifically, you broke rule XXX by doing YYY. As a result, you have recieved a 1 week ban. This ban will be lifted on DD/MM. We apologise if you are offended by recieving this ban, but we are rigid on the rules. Our aim is to make the boards a self policing society and to do so, we have to take a hard line."

The alternative -- above -- contains all of the information that a banned user need to understand and justify their ban.

- The point is made clearly and concisely
- Where the ban is justified, the user has all of the relevant information
- If justified, the moderator should not need to partake in any further communication with the user (and vice versa)

It is not valid to say that it takes too long or too much effort to explain "why" to each user. It will certainly take less time for the admin to explain when enforcing the ban than when recieving a request for explanation at a later date, and being then required to look historically for justification.

I believe the above also explains my point around being required to send a PM to Vexorg to get an un-ban. Its not necessary if communication is concise and informative up-front. By removing redundancy, workload is reduced.

CuLT

What I think ecksor is basically saying is (correct me if i'm wrong):

We will produce the highest quality products, using empowered team dynamics in a new Total Quality paradigm until we become the industry leader

maybe if you use phrases like:

"Streamlining processes for mazimising propensities"
"Enable full contrivances of empowerment"
"Eliminate occurrences of prolifirate randomness"
"Managerially balance data compilation with process ownership"

you might get the point across better :rolleyes: .