Is it fair to call it 'Flat Rate'?

raeGten

I've mentioned this in a few threads already but rather than going off topic I thought I'd start a new thread.
UTVip refer to there new product as :
"UTVip
First Ever Flat Rate Internet Services throughout Ireland "
Esat refer to theirs as:
"Ireland's first flat rate internet package, providing you with dial up access to the Internet for a flat monthly charge"

Leaving aside the viability of a 24/7 dial up service - is it fair or accurate for these companies to refer to their products as flate rate. I realise that they are based on FRIACO but that is a wholesale flat rate product. The public still have to pay extra if they exceed the (however generous) time limit.

Does anyone else think that this is innacurate advertising?

SkepticOne

What I would call them is partially metered products since the metering only kicks in after a number of hours. They are still an improvement on what has gone before, particularly if you need day time access.

raeGten

That sounds like a faif description. But surely they can't actually use the words 'flate rate' in their ads. That must go against advertising standards.

eth0_

Originally posted by raeGten
That sounds like a faif description. But surely they can't actually use the words 'flate rate' in their ads. That must go against advertising standards.

Sigh...no it doesn't.
It's a flat rate charged for a certain amount of hours.
If they used the term 'always on', then it would be false advertising.

flav0rflav

Flat-rate? No.

But it's about as flat as it can be, given current circumstances.

Having said that eircom have just gotten slammed by the advertising standards people for describing broadband as flat rate in their current ads. (Although I may be paraphrase the problem away). See ENN.

SkepticOne

I think rather than complain to the ASAI, our energies need to turn now to the broadband situation which is far more suited to long duration use.

While broadband is available to only a fraction of the population, too many heavy users are forced on to the 56k and ISDN system which is one of the reasons that FRIACO will only lead to partial flat rate in Ireland.

Zombrex

It is Flat-Rate as in anytime you connect you pay the same flat rate.

What it is not is UNLIMITED flat-rate, which quite a few news agencies (RTE for one) have been reporting it as.

In England and the US, where they don't have Eircom, they have Unlimited Flat-Rate internet.

Being in the Republic of Eirco....sorry Ireland, we have Limited Flat-Rate internet, because after all Eircom don't make enought money and we should be greatfull that Eircom let us have our phones and use their network in the first place.


...sigh...

brian_ire

in fairness both compaines do make it pretty clear that the package is only for 180hrs. the same cannot be said for broadband packages where you have to read the fine print to discover that there is a cap. i dunno if you have read eircom's press release on FRIACO but they claim they are selling it (wholesale) at the cheapest rate in europe. So wait if other countries are providing unlimited flat rate dial up, and ireland's wholesale rate is the cheapest in europe then why don't we have unlimited flat rate or the cheapest flat rate in europe???????

brian

eth0_

Originally posted by Wicknight
It is Flat-Rate as in anytime you connect you pay the same flat rate.

What it is not is UNLIMITED flat-rate, which quite a few news agencies (RTE for one) have been reporting it as.

That's called bad journalism, I don't consider that the fault of the telco's who make is pretty clear how many hours you get on FRIACO...

sceptre

"All you can eat for a tenner" is not the same thing as "All you can eat up to ten pizzas for a tenner", even if 10 pizzas is more than most users will eat.

It's a reduced-rate 180 hour deal.

Eurorunner

TBH, i dont understand how this could stand up legally. Anybody from any other developed country would laugh at this particular use of the term...i'm finding that this is the benchmark (refer to standard abroad) for most things since i moved back home.....people are being brainwashed with the notion that a substandard service/product is the standard on numerous fronts..:rolleyes:

Dawg

I'm presuming that once you use up your 180 hours on UTV, you can no longer connect to the regular number for the rest of that month, and as such are blocked from incurring any extra costs. Obviously, if you still need net access you can dial up to a PAYG number (UTV's or another ISP) but thats an entirely different service your connecting to.

So really it is a flat rate your paying for the 180 hour service. Anything over that is optional. I don't see it as innacurate advertising.

My 2 cents anyway.

Urban Weigl

All the packages currently available offer "partial flat rate" or "pre-paid hours", rather than true "flat rate" access to the Internet.

Rags

I'm presuming that once you use up your 180 hours on UTV, you can no longer connect to the regular number for the rest of that month, and as such are blocked from incurring any extra costs. Obviously, if you still need net access you can dial up to a PAYG number (UTV's or another ISP) but thats an entirely different service your connecting to.

Na after you go over the 180hours on both esat and utv you can still use them for as long as you like BUT after 180hr you will get charged the normal peak time or offpeak rates.

Dawg

well, thats what I get for presuming...

I was basing it on when I worked support for BTOpenworld. If Anytime users went over 150 hours they were kicked off the Anytime number for the rest of the month, same with the surftime package (120 hours if I remember correctly). We would have to set them up with a PAYG dun connection if they still needed access until their hours were reset.

eth0_

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
All the packages currently available offer "partial flat rate" or "pre-paid hours", rather than true "flat rate" access to the Internet.

Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

raeGten

Originally posted by eth0_
Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

I think both the terms are pretty self explanatory. That's the problem.
Flate rate means whatever happens you will only pay THIS price. In the case of Internet access that would mean that whether you use 50 minutes or 50 hours or a full 30 days you should still be charged the same price.
I realise the companies are being clear about the limits they have put on their offerings but I don't see how they can call them flate rate.
Why not ask somebody who hasn't a clue about computers or internet access what they think a flat rate fee for a service would mean to them. DOn't even mention Eircom or Friaco. My guess is they'd agree with my deffinition.

raeGten

Originally posted by eth0_
Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

I think both the terms are pretty self explanatory. That's the problem.
Flate rate means whatever happens you will only pay THIS price. In the case of Internet access that would mean that whether you use 50 minutes or 50 hours or a full 30 days you should still be charged the same price.
I realise the companies are being clear about the limits they have put on their offerings but I don't see how they can call them flate rate.
Why not ask somebody who hasn't a clue about computers or internet access what they think a flat rate fee for a service would mean to them. DOn't even mention Eircom or Friaco. My guess is they'd agree with my deffinition.

Eurorunner

Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

Lets face it, standards are not set in this country. If you look at the 'flat rate' products provided abroad, you will see that for the most part, flat rate IS unlimited (not always on - no dialup product in the world is, but unlimited).


Now, do we have to have 'special' standards in this country to accomodate inadequate service??

bealtine

Personally I think describing it as "flat rate" is misleading in the extreme.

Its a metered service that you pay through the nose for once you go over your alloted time. Now wheres the surprise in that?

Also when ordinary people here flat rate I believe they instantly think flat rate e.g "I pay X and dont have to pay anymore money"
which of course is patent nonsense

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by eth0_
Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

So in your opinion, 181 hours a month is always on now? Geez, with logic like that, no wonder infrastructure in this country is in such a state.

bizmark

from what i seen from a few BT ad,s for england they give you 150 hour,s for 15 ,99 (pounds) and call it flat rate

but it is in terms a flat rate you get a fixed amount of hour,s for A flat price that wont change

Urban Weigl

Most ISP's in the UK do not limit you in this way, and at least with the BT UK offering you are not billed without your knowledge.

I guess "180 hour flat rate" would be more appropriate, as these packages do not offer "flat rate" access on a monthly basis.

BoneCollector

Okay lets try clear this up eh>?

flat-rate

Definition:

FLAT RATE:
a Service you make a single payment for usage of.

SERVICE:
A product or business provided within limits (specified in terms and conditions of contract.

FRIACO
A term used to refer to an any time internet service for which cost is as little as possible and removes the burden of clock watching between peak and off peak times of usage.

ALWAYS ON:
A Term used to discribe a service which is advertised as 24/7 and can be used 24/hrs a day 7 days a week for a single payment..
closest to this is broad band for which you pay a flat rate for 24/7 access with a download cap.

Hope this clears this thing up once and for all... lads!

Capt'n Midnight

It's prepaid phone calls - non tansferable and non-refundable.

You pays your money - and if you don't use your hours they win.
If you use all your hours or go over they don't loose.

And Eircom are really upset 'cos while they are making money all the time - it's just not as much as they would like.

We're back to "no-limits" - except there are limits...

Anyway better giving your money to UTV than one of the Foreign owned telco's... might cause them to drop the price to cost of provision and an honest profit...

eth0_

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
So in your opinion, 181 hours a month is always on now? Geez, with logic like that, no wonder infrastructure in this country is in such a state.

Erm...no....*you are*.

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by eth0_
Erm...no....*you are*.

I am always on internet access now? :rolleyes:

Why do you keep insisting that proper flat rate internet access is impossible in Ireland though? You know perfectly well that in many countries it is being provided right now and has been for many years. Is a different type of copper being used in Ireland that I had never heard about before, or are we somehow too stupid to implement such a service?

sceptre

Originally posted by eth0_
Erm...no....*you are*.

/sceptre awakens from slumber

Er, what?

ColinM

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Geez, with logic like that, no wonder infrastructure in this country is in such a state.
Originally posted by eth0_
Erm...no....*you are*.
Originally posted by Urban Weigl
I am always on internet access now?
Originally posted by sceptre
Er, what?

No, I'm pretty sure she means you are "in a state". Maybe I'm wrong though - I'll be fairly embarassed if you actually do turn out to be always on Internet access.

(Eth0, you seem to be always sighing in exasperation at other posters these days. You seem real tetchy if you don't mind my sayin'. I haven't noticed Mercury Tilt flirtin' with you for a while now. Could this have somethin to do with it!?)

ColinM

well, it's all just semantics really, isn't it. Whatever your interpretation of flat-rate is, these products are a good thing. I think the battle is over with regard to FRIACO, and I don't see that there really is much progress to make with it. Far more important to concentrate on now is the need for everybody in this country to be able to avail of broadband from a choice of at least 2 competing suppliers.

If the 180hr flat rate packagte isn't enough for you, you need broadband. Of course, the fact that you can't get it is not the fault of FRIACO!

drjolt

Originally posted by ColinM
well, it's all just semantics really, isn't it. Whatever your interpretation of flat-rate is, these products are a good thing.

The only thing wrong with them is that they don't do exactly what it says on the tin.

I think the battle is over with regard to FRIACO,

Well, it is if people decide they're happy with what they now have, and make apologies for comreg so they can claim success. Which in fairness is what's happening.