Is it fair to call it 'Flat Rate'?

bealtine

quote:
quote:

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I think the battle is over with regard to FRIACO,

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Well, it is if people decide they're happy with what they now have, and make apologies for comreg so they can claim success. Which in fairness is what's happening

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I suspect the real battle may just be beginning...What with the
EU likely to put an oar in and when people realize what they are buying inot is really "metered access with a new shiny coat"
They will start demanding more.

Many posters say broadband is the answer...in my case I'll be old
and gray by the time they roll out bb around here and we are less than 30 miles from the city centre.

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by ColinM
Whatever your interpretation of flat-rate is, these products are a good thing. I think the battle is over with regard to FRIACO...

I agree with you completely that these new "flat rate"-type deals are a good thing, there can be no doubt about that. However, it is all relative.

For instance, relative to no internet access being available in the state at all, being able to connect to the internet for even 1 euro a minute would be an improvement on how things were before. Just something to think about.

PS: Personally, I do not see why anyone should use dialup. It does not matter whether you use the internet for 1, 10 or 100 hours a month -- it should be possible at broadband speeds (life is too short to wait for pages to download). This is beginning to happen in France for example, where many new users are leapfrogging dialup and jumping directly onto broadband. As such, I do not think that dial up internet access should even be available, but until we get 100% broadband coverage at affordable rates (packages beginning at under 20 euros a month), we'll need it unfortunately, which is why we need proper unmetered dialup access.

eth0_

Originally posted by ColinM

(Eth0, you seem to be always sighing in exasperation at other posters these days. You seem real tetchy if you don't mind my sayin'. I haven't noticed Mercury Tilt flirtin' with you for a while now. Could this have somethin to do with it!?)

The internet makes me feel sad

BoneCollector

I suspect the real battle may just be beginning...What with the EU likely to put an oar in and when people realize what they are buying inot is really "metered access with a new shiny coat"

yes but with 2 Major and important difference`s

1) its cheaper that normal dial up
2) MOST IMPORTANT!! You can log on the internet peak and off-peak without incurring any extra cost for the 1st time in years.

I think these are major achievements for anyone! that wants to use the internet without the bother of watching what time of day it is and worrying about the acumilating costs that would normaly hit them when they receive there phone bill of €250+ which has been now reduced to something respectable like.. say.. €80.

bealtine

quote:

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I suspect the real battle may just be beginning...What with the




1) its cheaper that normal dial up
2) MOST IMPORTANT!! You can log on the internet peak and off-peak without incurring any extra cost for the 1st time in years.

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Maybe...but the "overrun" thing has yet to be determined.
So if you go over your alloted hours you start into the realms
of completely mad money per hour. I believe UTV will charge
3.8c per minute. This is where the problems start and we are back
to clock watching again.
All this FRIACO stuff was supposed to get rid of the clock watching...
which it hasn't done at all.

Things are a bit better than before but not a lot after your 180 hours it becomes unrealistic to start surfing...
FWIW 180 hours isn't a lot if you are doing say web design or
remote administration of computers or whatever makes for variable hours on the net.

Like I said broadband is many many years away for the vast majority of Irish users (contrary to what the OLO's would like us
to believe)

Only 10% of exchanges are ever likely to be DSL enabled.
Currently we have a target of 100 exchanges by Sept 2004.
There are 10,000 exchanges or so in the country.

OHP

Flat rate to me = You give a person admission / allowance / access to something for a Flat Rate. Time does not come in to it unless you state a time like 24/7

OHP

BoneCollector

Maybe...but the "overrun" thing has yet to be determined.
So if you go over your alloted hours you start into the realms
of completely mad money per hour.

Why state the obvious? as if its a revelation?
your paying for a product that clearly states what you are buying..
a block package of 180 hrs.
How you use it is upto you..

@ some stage utv may introduce a high usage package, but again your going to pay for what you get and will have to use it within the limits of the package.

The market, once stimulated, will determin how these packages develope, and of course dont for get the real! bottle neck in the system. errcom!

Mork

Bascially it boils down to this...

UTVi = Good
€ircon = Bad

raeGten

There's only two ways I can see these products as flat rate:
1/ If you pay a fixed price each month for unlimited access.
or
2/ If you pay a fixed price per minute regardless of the time of day or day of the week.

Now neither of the products available on the market at the moment meet these criteria. I'm not knocking them....they're deffinately an improvement over what was there before. But when everybody was asking for flat rate internet access....this isn't what I pictured. It's a bit dissapointing and I don't think they should be allowed to use the phrase 'flat rate' in their ads.

bealtine

quote

2) MOST IMPORTANT!! You can log on the internet peak and off-peak without incurring any extra cost for the 1st time in years.

Why state the obvious? as if its a revelation?
your paying for a product that clearly states what you are buying..
a block package of 180 hrs.
How you use it is upto you..

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I was simply responding to a number of misconceptions (as I see them).

Point 2 as quoted above is simply not correct.

BoneCollector

Point 2 as quoted above is simply not correct

Explain your logic?

bealtine

quote

2) MOST IMPORTANT!! You can log on the internet peak and off-peak without incurring any extra cost for the 1st time in years.

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You can log on until you run out of pre-bought time then acc
to UTV you start paying 3.8c per min.
Acc to Esat you will be cut off until the next month.
(This is not confirmed as they are not sure how overruns will be dealt with)

The original purpose of this escapade was to end that "clock watching feeling". No you need keep one eye on the hour meter
and another on the bill.

Now this is a far better situation than watching the $$ roll up every time you reply to an email or browse your fav website.

With this kind of attitude one will need to buy a "lite user"
block to keep in reserve...just in case or go back to paying through the nose.

For instance if one were to d/l the latest platform SDK from MS
weighing in at a mere 600M or a service pack which weighs in about the same.(Havent acutally checked the sizes recently but you get the picture). That will take a huge chunk out of your prepaid block. What do you do then?

And yes the problem is still eircom:)

BoneCollector

For instance if one were to d/l the latest platform SDK from MS
weighing in at a mere 600M or a service pack which weighs in about the same.(Havent acutally checked the sizes recently but you get the picture). That will take a huge chunk out of your prepaid block. What do you do then?

Yeah thats call "heavy usage" which is not what dialup is intended for..
if your gonna be doing that kind of downloading you need some form of broadband download to make it realistic..
trying to streatch dialup to accomodate such large downloads is not being realistic.

bealtine

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For instance if one were to d/l the latest platform SDK from MS
--
Yeah thats call "heavy usage" which is not what dialup is intended for..
if your gonna be doing that kind of downloading you need some form of broadband download to make it realistic..
trying to streatch dialup to accomodate such large downloads is not being realistic

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Like I said earlier, I'm tied to dialup, my only other choice is
a leased line which is not realistic at all given the silly charges
involved. No satellite and anyway a leased line would be better:(

I'll be dead by the time errcom roll out anything round here.
(less than 30 miles from Dublin city centre)

So as you can see I'm stuck with my crappy isdn until
"hell freezes over" I suppose.

drjolt

Originally posted by BoneCollector
Yeah thats call "heavy usage" which is not what dialup is intended for..

Who told you that? Most of this rollocks comes from the telcos. Why listen to them?

bk

Originally posted by drjolt
Who told you that? Most of this rollocks comes from the telcos. Why listen to them?

He is right, any telco engineer (including ones who are friendly to our cause) will tell you that the PSTN network simply isn't designed for this sort of usage.

PSTN is a circut switched network which means when you connect to the netweork you get a dedicated connection to a port. Since there are limited number of ports and if people are connected to the ports for a long length of time, then you will eventually run out of ports and people are going to get engaged tones.

On the other hand broadband technologies such as ADSL use an always on, packet based network, which makes far more efficient use of the network.

bealtine

quote:

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Originally posted by drjolt
Who told you that? Most of this rollocks comes from the telcos. Why listen to them?


He is right, any telco engineer (including ones who are friendly to our cause) will tell you that the PSTN network simply isn't designed for this sort of usage.

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Thats all very nice and well I happen to agree but while PSTN
is the only viable way to access the internet we still have to
live with it and use it to d/l stuff.

bk

Originally posted by bealtine
quote:

Like I said earlier, I'm tied to dialup,
<cut>

I'll be dead by the time errcom roll out anything round here.
(less than 30 miles from Dublin city centre)

So as you can see I'm stuck with my crappy isdn until
"hell freezes over" I suppose.

As others have said the PSTN network simply isn't designed for this sort of usage. You can kick, scream and complain all you want, but you just can't change the technical reality of the situation.

You should be using bb full stop.

Therefore you shouldn't be putting your energy into complaining about the FRIACO products (it just won't make any difference), instead put your energy into getting broadband.

If you are only 30 miles from Dublin, then there is no reason to think that you won't be able to get bb in the near future. BB is being rolled out all over the country, even in God forsaken places like Donegal

Why don't you try setting up a broadband4?.com site and campaign, get loads of your neighbours to sign up and then approach Eircom and the wireless companies. If they see there is a market base there then they are more likely to rollout bb in your area.

Or why not go annoy your local politician about getting bb in your local area. Your local council might get a clue and set up some sort of community wireless project.

There are loads of things you can do to try and get BB in your area. Don't just whine about the lack of BB, do something about it.

It is time that we all forget about FRIACO, it is great that we have it and it is 100% necessary as a stepping stone to BB. However it is old technology.

It is now time that we all turn our attention to getting affordable broadband for ALL.

bealtine

quote:

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Originally posted by bealtine
quote:

Like I said earlier, I'm tied to dialup,

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Why don't you try setting up a broadband4?.com site and campaign, get loads of your neighbours to sign up and then approach Eircom and the wireless companies. If they see there is a market base there then they are more likely to rollout bb in your area.

Or why not go annoy your local politician about getting bb in your local area. Your local council might get a clue and set up some sort of community wireless project.

There are loads of things you can do to try and get BB in your area. Don't just whine about the lack of BB, do something about it.

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We've done all that. We've talked to the minister. We've plauged
Comreg and all the local politicians.

The answer from errcom is still "F*ck you"

The answer from the wireless companies is "f*ck off" but a little bit more politely.

So why else do you think I'm "whining" as you so politely call it.

So I will be stuck with ****ty isdn dialup forever.

Welcome to the e-arsehole of the world.

bk

Originally posted by bealtine
quote:

We've done all that. We've talked to the minister. We've plauged
Comreg and all the local politicians.

The answer from errcom is still "F*ck you"

The answer from the wireless companies is "f*ck off" but a little bit more politely.

So why else do you think I'm "whining" as you so politely call it.

So I will be stuck with ****ty isdn dialup forever.

Welcome to the e-arsehole of the world.

What do you mean by we have? Unless your a reincarnation, you've only been on boards since June and posted a measly few times.

What great work have you done for IOFFL?

Since you have appeared on boards you have done nothing but complain about FRIACO and frankly it just doesn't help. We need positive action and input, complaining is not going to get us anywhere.

You are right the IOFFL committee and some very active IOFFL members have spoken to the government, minister, tds, on radio and tv, comreg, Eircom, etc. and from talking to these IOFFL people they are generally speaking are very happy with what they have achieved over the last few months. Namely:

1) FRIACO
2) Cheaper DSL
3) Some great USO submissions and presentations to the Government.
4) Increased awareness of IOFFL and the issues amongst the government and public.

BB isn't just going to appear over the country overnight, it just isn't going to happen.
The wireless companies are going to rollout all over the place, it just takes time.

What IOFFL need to do (and I believe are doing) is to do everything possible to help support and promote the growing wireless industry, as the wireless industry grows Eircom will have no choice but to compete or die.

And where Eircom won't compete, the gap will probably be filled by wireless technology (such as ComReg's idea for 384/64 wireless broadband over the GSM network in rural areas, in the next USO).

So bealtine, tell us all how you are going to help IOFFL achieve its goals?

drjolt

Originally posted by bk
He is right, any telco engineer (including ones who are friendly to our cause) will tell you that the PSTN network simply isn't designed for this sort of usage.

PSTN is a circut switched network which means when you connect to the netweork you get a dedicated connection to a port. Since there are limited number of ports and if people are connected to the ports for a long length of time, then you will eventually run out of ports and people are going to get engaged tones.

It's not that it's wrong thinking, just limited thinking. After all, there are a fixed number of ports on a DSLAM too.

MDR

So bealtine, tell us all how you are going to help IOFFL achieve its goals?

Very little I should imagine, its far more fun to bitch and moan, about corrupt politicians and the evil Eircom.

bealtine

quote:
What do you mean by we have? Unless your a reincarnation, you've only been on boards since June and posted a measly few times.

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By "we" I meant the people around here.

And fwiw I've been a member of IOFL since its inception.
So in many ways yes I am a reincarnation:-)

If you feel that correcting misconceptions about FRIACO is whining then fair enough, I however feel it proper to correct those
misconceptions and maybe I am flogging a dead horse but I dont know until I guage the temperature.


quote:

1) FRIACO
2) Cheaper DSL
3) Some great USO submissions and presentations to the Government.
4) Increased awareness of IOFFL and the issues amongst the government and public.

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I agree these things have been achieved mostly through the hard work of IOFL but while dsl is the plaything of the few we are
dangerously close to creating a "digital divide". This is something
imho that needs to be avoided at all costs.

The attitude of the wireless companies is rather shortsighted at this time. A small corner of South Dublin doesnt really equate to
nationwide coverage...
So the "culchees" have to wait and in the meantime they pay through the nose...


I've read the IOFL response to the USO and agree with it.

quote:

BB isn't just going to appear over the country overnight, it just isn't going to happen.

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exactly it will probably never happen. Therefore there may be some mileage in flogging the dead FRIACO horse?

quote:

So bealtine, tell us all how you are going to help IOFFL achieve its goals?

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What do you suggest ? I'm certainly willing to help in any way I can.

gombín

quote:

_________________________________________
There are 10,000 exchanges or so in the country.

Eh.... Bealtaine? There are nothing near 10,000 exchanges in the country. The figure is 1,100 approx.

bealtine

quote:


There are 10,000 exchanges or so in the country.

Eh.... Bealtaine? There are nothing near 10,000 exchanges in the country. The figure is 1,100 approx.

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Good point :-)
I slipped an extra zero in there by accident...

Capt'n Midnight

From this I take it UTV should refer to thier product as "Partly Flat Rate" - but are they getting unmetered internet from Eircom ?

Internet offers should have a proper price notifications - not a terms and conditions catch all - since these are new products you can't resonably expect customers to be aware of the terms and conditions - especially since they do not adhere to the UK / EU / interntional norms (where Flat rate means no hidden charges..)
eg:
From €99 per month or
€99 per month * extra charges may apply

SOME Definitions FROM http://www.oftel.gov.uk/publications/internet/internet_brief/broad0603.htm

13.2 FRIACO (Flat Rate Internet Access Call Origination)

FRIACO is an unmetered wholesale product that allows other network operators to offer their own unmetered Internet access products in competition with BT. The UK was the first European country to introduce FRIACO, following a direction by Oftel in May 2000, and it has led to some of the cheapest prices for Internet access in the world. Around six and a half million UK homes now use unmetered Internet access.


11. Current narrowband products

There are a number of dial-up Internet access packages available to both residential and business consumers. These include:

Metered ('pay-as-you-go') Subscription + cost of calls or No subscription - cost of calls only

Partly unmetered Subscription + free usage at certain times/for a certain amount of time + call costs at other times

Fully unmetered Subscription + unlimited free usage + no call costs

ps. bealtine if you are only 30km from city centre check out www.irishwan.org/board & www.dublinwan.org

sceptre

FYI, I've updated what is now the "Partly unmetered 56k/ISDN" sticky with the details of the new products (thought I'd post in here - it hardly warrants a new thread).

Those complaining about the new title may read Capn' Midnight's last post with the definitions and mine on the first page of this thread in relation to pizza.

Feel free to carry on discussion in this thread - I'm not changing the title of the sticky back to include the term "Flat Rate" though. Especially not while the ASAI concurs with my position that any product that can incur further charges over the quoted price under any circumstances cannot be advertised or classified as a flat rate product.