Is Bertie Ahern a liar?

dahamsta

This is not a troll, nor am I asking people to rant endlessly about Ahern, I'm simply looking for irrefutable examples of lying from Bertie Ahern, particularly in the last year or so. Call it a research project if you need some justification.

adam

celticfc

He's a polititian - of course he's a liar.
Duh! :rolleyes:

Cork

I think every polician makes promises. But no politician can predict economic activity.

Is easy to point at inconsistancys. But instead of living in utopia - Bertie is living in reality.

All partys bring out manifestos. They all promise the sun, moon & stars.

I think as an electorate - we deserve more conviction & less spin.

But the opposition leaders are also going for the soundbyte.

dahamsta

Celticfc, there's a very big difference between spin and lying. Cork, you're on my ignore list, responding to my posts is like muttering into a very deep hole. Go away.

adam

Victor

The Bertie Bowl will cost IR£250m - do a search of the Dáil records.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Victor
The Bertie Bowl will cost IR£250m - do a search of the Dáil records.

This is a typical public service problem though, isn't it Victor? It could be spun as a "rise in costs due to unforeseen circumstances", just like every other bloody public service project, ever. I guess this applies to most of the guff out of the man's mouth when you get right down to it, but surely he must have said something - particularly before the election - that was an outright, irrefutable lie?

adam

Paddy20

What a dumb question!. All human beings are liars, EVEN YOU.
And, yes I know I am on your ignore list, thank god, but if you do not want people too reply to your threads. Then stop posting any.

Cork

Yes, name one politician who is whiter than white. Is there anyboby in the Labour Party, Democratic Left, Sinn Fein, FG, the Greens etc.

Is it not a little arrogant to expect more from our politicians than soceity as a whole.

Are we expecting standards of Bertie that we would expect from a saint?

For he or she who has not sinned cast the first stone.

Sure, point out inconsistancys in the statements of politicians - but posing a question like "Is Bertie Ahern a liar?" is a little OTT.

Why should you single out Bertie and not all the other TDs and past TDs in the Dail?

Of course, Bertie is Taoiseach.

As such - he probably should be under more scutinany. But - a differance between Rabbit, Kenny & Ahern - is that Bertie has a mandate given to him by the Irish people.

Bertie is the leader of this country. Looking at the programme on FG last weekend & the mess the Peace Process was in Before Bertie was Taoiseach - Ireland is a far better place with Bertie than without.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Sure, point out inconsistancys in the statements of politicians - but posing a question like "Is Bertie Ahern a liar?" is a little OTT.

I dunno - I find it terribly informative to watch people try and avoid answering the question directly.

"No-one always tells the truth". "No politician is whiter than white". And so on and so forth.

The thing is, that if you guys actually believed that, then you shouldnt have a problem answering what Adam asked.....but instead you keep going on about how wrong his question is, and how no-ones perfect - all of which (I might add) seems to be based on the assumption that you understand his agenda for having asked the question in the first place and are trying to say that this unspoken agenda is wrong.

If no politican is whiter than white, then back it up by a relevant example. But no...you guys seem more interested in not asnwering the question but still saying something. If you're not gonna answer the question, then why are you getting involved in the discussion? One would think you had something to protect or hide!

Adam - personally, I haven't a clue of any case where he was definitely lying.

jc

Cork

Sorry, If I was using Stereotypes Of Politicians. But I think Bertie is pretty decent. He has done alot for the Peace Process.

I know there is anger out there about the economy. I have just got a new job. It is not great but Its a job.

Bertie has made statements based on some assumptions regarding the economy. He has no control over world economic conditions. But as the economic down turn is beginning to bite - people are looking back at the statements he made.

Sparks

Adam - personally, I haven't a clue of any case where he was definitely lying.

I do. He claimed to have a degree from UCD and diplomas from the London School of Economics. Both schools stated that he had never been a student there. Bertie then changed his biography to remove those claims.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2001/11/27/story18127.asp
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2001/11/28/story18189.asp
http://www.fiannafail.ie/td_cv_15.htm

Sarky

I believe his real name is supposed to be Bartholemew Arearne. It's only a very minor thing, but still...

Victor

Originally posted by dahamsta
This is a typical public service problem though, isn't it Victor? It could be spun as a "rise in costs due to unforeseen circumstances", just like every other bloody public service project, ever. I guess this applies to most of the guff out of the man's mouth when you get right down to it, but surely he must have said something - particularly before the election - that was an outright, irrefutable lie?

Not quite. He was specifically having the record corrected.

"We searched every tree in North County Dublin" - or words to that effect.

That story he recounted recently about his mates having to drag him out of the pub he was so drunk that he subsequently withdrew.

Cork

Originally posted by Victor
Not quite. He was specifically having the record corrected.

"We searched every tree in North County Dublin" - or words to that effect.

That story he recounted recently about his mates having to drag him out of the pub he was so drunk that he subsequently withdrew.

I surpose - he probably withdrew that story because of political correctness.

The qualification story is not unique. Many people jazz up their CVs.

I think Bertie is an honest politician. Having only met the guy once - he strikes me as quiet honourable.

Party Manifestos are normally quiet aspirational. But I supose Bertie did promise a referendum on Partnership For Peace.

But as the FG programme showed last sunday - Garret the Good promising an abortion referendum & delivering it.

In the hard face of post election sinarios - maybe sometimes promises need to be broken.

I think that sometimes when reality bites - choices have to be made.

Bertie should have gave us the referendum on Partnership For Peace. But, he many have had valid reasons why he did not.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Having only met the guy once - he strikes me as quiet honourable.

Having met the guy twice he seem like a popularity-whore.

Originally posted by Cork
Bertie should have gave us the referendum on Partnership For Peace. But, he many have had valid reasons why he did not.

Any chance he would share them?

Sparks

The qualification story is not unique. Many people jazz up their CVs.

Some education for you then Cork - what he did wasn't "jazzing up" - he lied. About having attended college and about having attended the london school of economics. And we're not talking about a resume for a tesco's shelf-stocker, we're talking about the resume of the Taoiseach, who was also the Minister of Finance - which means that the LSE qualifications were directly relevant.

I think Bertie is an honest politician. Having only met the guy once - he strikes me as quiet honourable.

Yes, I hear Edie Amin was rather nice if you were at a dinner party - just so long as you weren't the main course.
In other words (before you go accusing me of calling Ahern a cannibal), just because he seems personable doesn't mean he's honest.

As to the rest of your post, it does not change that he lied on his resume. For a long period of time. And in case you haven't checked the site I quoted, it still carries his claims of education in the LSE and UCD - but the new CV here: http://www.fiannafail.ie/taoiseach_cv.htm
has no mention of the LSE, but still has the claim of having attended UCD.

Now, I'd like to see Ministers with a certain qualification for their posts, but that's not how the system works - but just because you don't need the qualification doesn't mean that we should accept someone lying about the qualifications they do have.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
The qualification story is not unique. Many people jazz up their CVs.

That's not "jazzing up a CV". Saying you've qualifications from two reputable universities when you haven't is an outright lie.

Spacedog

It's a little known fact that when Bertie was 7 years old and in school his teacher brought in buns as a treat for the children, they were each allowed to take two each. Bertie took four when he thought nobody was looking and scoffed the lot. Later when the teacher asked the class who had taken the extra buns (leaving a couple of working class children short one each), Bertie clearly said that it wasn't him and that it was clearly the economic downturn of recient years that was to blame. He then went on to explain other factors which indirectly contributed to the dissaperance or the buns, including increased labour costs in the food producing industries, low public morale on both a national and international scale and low education standards within Irelands schools at the time (which didn't impress the teacher). It was noted that he had a cheeky grin and a few more crumbs on his jumper than the rest of the class. Of course this scandel would be explosive if it ever was made officially public, but the parties involved signed a legal document which prohibits them from discussing the matter with anyone in return for an undescloded amount of penny jellies (widely believed to be 3).

I've been reading way too much theonion.com.

Cork

The Dail is not made up of Saints & scholars. You even had someboby questioning whether Berties farther was a gardener or farmer.

Now we have the tabloids and our quality newspapers looking into Berties personal life.

The peace process was a shambles before Bertie. People can nit pick as much as they want. But Bertie has delivered on the Peace Process.

His qualifications is a non issue. I really do not bother with the qualifications he has. He got the mandate. The people have spoken.

The opposition would like to think the people were hoodwinked. I would give the Irish people more credit.

Originally posted by Sparks
- what he did wasn't "jazzing up" - he lied. About having attended college and about having attended the london school of economics.

Interesting indeed that we should be discussing what politians do sometimes on their Resumé.
With the way the opinion polls are going in the last few months with our nearest neighbour... soon the U.K could also have a leader that lies on their CV too...we're in good company it seems..?
mm

Sparks

The Dail is not made up of Saints & scholars.

But you'd never know that from their resume's ...
:rolleyes:

Cork, it was a direct and blatent lie. He was caught. End of story (as regards the deed).

Now the interesting thing, is that it seems that this is not an act you get punished for in this country. So next time I write up my CV, I'm going to point out that I invented the web, negotiated the Good Friday Agreement, and single-handedly drove the snakes out of Ireland...

But Bertie has delivered on the Peace Process.

Yes, credit where it's due.
Ah, I think I'll always remember where I was when the IRA finally said the war was over and handed over their arms. And when the UDF did the same thing and both sides agreed to not continue with punishment beatings and crucifictions... well, it brought a tear to my eye.

He got the mandate. The people have spoken.

Actually, they haven't. I didn't get to vote on whether or not Ahern was re-elected, and neither did the vast majority of people in this country.

The opposition would like to think the people were hoodwinked. I would give the Irish people more credit.

So would I - but I keep reading your posts and rethinking things.

Originally posted by Sparks
So next time I write up my CV, I'm going to point out that I invented the web, negotiated the Good Friday Agreement, and single-handedly drove the snakes out of Ireland...

Don't do that Sparks, the interview panel might be less forgiving than the electorate;)

Ah, I think I'll always remember where I was when the IRA finally said the war was over and handed over their arms. And when the UDF did the same thing and both sides agreed to not continue with punishment beatings and crucifictions... well, it brought a tear to my eye.

Just in relation to the peace process, while I recognise, how easy it is, to give a reply like that to cork. I think it's unfair to dismiss, Mr Aherns efforts in regard to it in that way.
When Bruton was Taoiseach, the process did stagnate, it wasn't an accident that the measures necessary to re float the process took off only when Fianna Fáil returned.
It's an imperfect process, but without some risk taking and bullet biting ( forgive the pun ) we'd be back to square one, and the mahem of the 70's and 80's.
mm

Sparks

BTW, just in case anyone thinks that it's only ahern:
From the Dail debate Nov 12 2002:

227. Mr. F. McGrath asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs the reason for the recent high incidence of foreign military aircraft flying over Annaghdown, County Galway; if the identity of these aircraft has been determined; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21574/02]
Minister for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Cowen): I assure the Deputy that overall there has not been any significant change in the pattern of overflights and landings by foreign military aircraft in recent months, nor am I aware that there has been any significant change in the routing of overflights. In the absence of details of the incidents referred to in the Deputy's question, we are not in a position to provide any more specific information on the issue.

Which is either the worst case of gross incompetence, or an outright lie in the Dail.

On the same topic:
From a Statement by Taoiseach to Dail Eireann regarding Situation in Iraq:

Ireland has made overflight and landing facilities available to the US for the last fifty years. This period covers many crises and military confrontations, which involved the US taking military action without specific UN endorsement - Kosovo, being the most significant. We did not withdraw or suspend those facilities at any stage during that period
There is no reason to act differently towards the United States now than we did during previous conflicts.

Except that during the Horgan v. Ireland case, it was proven in the High Court that the government did in fact make substantial changes to Irish policy regarding overflight rights in this case compared to the last fifty years.
So that's a direct lie.
And on one of the most important foreign affairs topic in a few decades.

tall chapy

It is hard to catch Bertie lying because he always has an excuse.
The latest is the Justice Flood resignation. Did he know on the 26 of May ??. If he did ,he will say that the AG did not inform him of the meeting & the AG can say that he was to busy in The Hague to tell him. The main trouble is accountability. The buck stops nowhere with this government & don't forget there is also 'Bertie speak'
Here are a few for starters..

“We oppose Irish participation in NATO-led organisations such as Partnership for Peace.”
— Tallyman, Sunday Tribune, March 28, 1999.

Ahern claimed to have climbed every tree in north Dublin - Ray Burke

Ahern reckons that the Flood Tribunal report found Mara "innocent". Mara has offshore accounts in the Isle of Man. He lodged large sums there that were undeclared to the tax authorities. He failed to disclose beneficial ownership of the money. And he failed to identify the accounts.
But none of this seems to meet with the Taoiseach's disapproval. It did not prevent Mara from being chosen to help steer Fianna Fáil's general election campaign or to guide the 'Yes to Nice' campaign (SBP)


More ..
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2002/05/12/story319594.asp

Though these below may not of come out of Bertie's mouth.Being the leader of the
1 - government
2 - Fianna Fail
3 - and having overall & cabinet collective responsibility.
He would have to of approved or agreed these, but they never materialised

No cutbacks (If there were going to be cutbacks, he should of told Charlie he was wrong to say this)
School re-building programme (How can a minister approve building works & then not go ahead with it. Do not promise what you cannot give !!.)
extra five thousand gardaí on the streets, (Sure it is hard enough trying find out how many are on the street at one time !!)
extra medical cards

All I can say is bring on Tom Gilmartin !!!!!!

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Cork
The Dail is not made up of Saints & scholars. You even had someboby questioning whether Berties farther was a gardener or farmer.

Now we have the tabloids and our quality newspapers looking into Berties personal life.

The peace process was a shambles before Bertie. People can nit pick as much as they want. But Bertie has delivered on the Peace Process.

His qualifications is a non issue. I really do not bother with the qualifications he has. He got the mandate. The people have spoken.

The opposition would like to think the people were hoodwinked. I would give the Irish people more credit.

Cork please stop ranting about Bertie and the peace process. He was probably the smallest player in the successes that led to the Good Friday agreement.
Lets not forget. It was Trimble and Hume that got the Nobal Peace Prize. Not Bertie. The Success of the Agreement can also be landed at teh Labour party in Britain as teh conservatives are strong allies of the UUP and could never give into such comprimises that would have produced anything close to the Good Friday Agreement

Spacedog

Has there ever been a proven case of Bertie the truth?

Cork

Originally posted by tall chapy


Ahern reckons that the Flood Tribunal report found Mara "innocent". Mara has offshore accounts in the Isle of Man. He lodged large sums there that were undeclared to the tax authorities. He failed to disclose beneficial ownership of the money. And he failed to identify the accounts.
But none of this seems to meet with the Taoiseach's disapproval. It did not prevent Mara from being chosen to help steer Fianna Fáil's general election campaign or to guide the 'Yes to Nice' campaign (SBP)




No cutbacks (If there were going to be cutbacks, he should of told Charlie he was wrong to say this)
School re-building programme (How can a minister approve building works & then not go ahead with it. Do not promise what you cannot give !!.)
extra five thousand gardaí on the streets, (Sure it is hard enough trying find out how many are on the street at one time !!)
extra medical cards

All I can say is bring on Tom Gilmartin !!!!!!

Yes, Bring on Tom Gilmartin - I think that Mr. Gilmartin needs to put his views on public record.

Cutbacks - When you have a short fall in revenue - you either cutback, borrow or spend. I think cutbacks are warranted.

Health spending increased 120% in the last 5 years.

PJ Mara was found guilty of nothing. He resigned as FFs director of Elections. What you you want? We have laws in this country - If he has done wrong -we have a justice system in this country.

Bertie is facing up to the economic reality of today. He cannot stick his head in the sand and be oblivious to our economic conditions.

There is a world economic slowdown. Plans have to be revised. It is common sense really. All party manifestos were based on assumptions on tax revenue & growth. When you don't get the revenue or growth - you need to make choices.

Sparks

Cork, so far I've given two documented cases of Bertie lying in serious areas. You've given a lot of hand-waving apologising for decisions that were marginal at best, and downright immoral and illegal at worst.
You might want to step back and reconsider your position.

tall chapy

So Cork, you do agree that Bertie has lied !!

Now....
_______________________________________________________________
Cutbacks - When you have a short fall in revenue - you either cutback, borrow or spend. I think cutbacks are warranted.
_______________________________________________________________

That's fair enough as long as before an election you do not promise 'no cutbacks'

______________________________________________________________
Health spending increased 120% in the last 5 years
______________________________________________________________

And what has improved ???
I hate to say this but it must not have gone on training extra intensive care nurses.The trouble with this government is that they believe that there is an acceptable amount of deaths, My point being that they say yes these RARE things can happen due to circumstances, but by having this philosophy you accept that there is an acceptable amount of deaths.
I still have to wait 4/5/6 hours in A&E !
You forgot to mention the 2 increases in the family prescription threshold.
Medical cards, extra toll roads.....i know it has nothing to do with health, just thought I'd throw it in...;)
There is no point in throwing money at a problem. It needs to be fixed & who was left in charge, FF/PD led by Bertie.

This typical FF :ninja:
_______________________________________________________________
PJ Mara was found guilty of nothing. He resigned as FFs director of Elections. What you you want? We have laws in this country - If he has done wrong -we have a justice system in this country.
_______________________________________________________________

Ray Burke, Charlie Haughey,Liam Lawlor, George Redmond AND PJ, none of these have been found guilty in a courtroom. But is receiving income & not declaring it, is this ok then !!!
I cannot answer why they have not been charged.
Since we are on the subject of charging people. This shower in governemnt will not be implementing all the elements of the european human rights law.Which will still mean that the DPP will still not have to give a reason as to why it did not bring charges.
We have laws in this country, but we do not have good strong laws in this country. Some examples, Libel, Slander, minimum sentancing, competition, disability, consumer rights...
we have a justice system in this country. But not a good justice system
__________________________________________________________
Bertie is facing up to the economic reality of today. He cannot stick his head in the sand and be oblivious to our economic conditions.
_____________________________________________________________

Another typical FF mistake.
Taking the people for granted. Obviously Bertie has to face up to economic reality, things get muddier when you draw up the list of priorities or should I say 'choices'. Who comes first on this list !!

______________________________________________________________
There is a world economic slowdown. Plans have to be revised. It is common sense really. All party manifestos were based on assumptions on tax revenue & growth. When you don't get the revenue or growth - you need to make choices.
______________________________________________________________

The trouble is that it was well known that the tax revenue & growth set out in the manifesto were not achievable.
Now as for "you need to make choices", a bit like the choice made to challenge Kathy Sinnott's High Court victory. All she want was for her disabled child to receive state education after the age of 18 & also challenging the Hep C victims, Michael Woods giving indemnity to the church...etc..

Now as for Northern Ireland, FF were the only one, that were able to get the IRA onside, mainly Albert & FF .Here is where the praise stops.
Allowing the British government to be able to suspend Stormont & saying hardly anything is unbelievable. Is it not a joint agreement !! Yet one side can pull the plug.
Bertie is becoming so close to being a west brit, he could nearly apply for residency in the Isle of Man.....:p

davelerave

he's got a tough job most adults tell lies,this debate belongs in the recycle bin

Sparks

he's got a tough job most adults tell lies,

And most adults, when they lie on their resume, get fired or disciplined.
And most adults, if they tell a direct lie to the Dail in answer to a direct question, face a fairly harsh sanction as well.

this debate belongs in the recycle bin

Oh do shut up about the gooseberries Maurice