Harney: High prices are your own fault

sceptre

From today's Irish Anto

She's got a point in some ways - lack of price comparison by consumers is a serious problem in this country. On the other hand, higher VAT rates and "stealth" taxes are much to blame for the high inflation figure. Last time I checked we can't shop around for another government for a few years yet.

TANAISTE Mary Harney last night stepped into the prices crisis by claiming consumers only have themselves to blame for not "shopping around".

She said they should be "more demanding" in the battle against spiralling costs.

Ms Harney, who as Enterprise and Trade Minister has responsibility in this area, ruled out a price freeze in the face of the widening controversy over "rip-off Ireland".

Yesterday, she called on consumers to "take an active role" claiming many were "insensitive to the prices being charged".

Retailers, hotels and pubs yesterday strongly defended themselves against attack after Central Statistics Office figures showed price increases are costing every Irish household at least an extra €1,000-a-year.

As more evidence of excessive mark-ups emerged, Ms Harney said many people did not even count their change or know the prices of ordinary goods they bought every day. If people went elsewhere, retailers would realise they were not apathetic about the cost of the goods they were buying, she said.

The Tanaiste said that until consumers used their power and moved their business to pubs, retail outlets and restaurants offering better value for money, prices would remain high.

But she came under fire for her "shop around" comments from Fine Gael Enterprise spokesman Phil Hogan, who accused her and the Coalition of contributing to the prices problem.

"The Government itself is responsible for 60pc of all the increases," said Mr Hogan, who said it was obvious from her comments that Ms Harney did not have the consumers' interests at heart.

He said the high prices of insurance, energy and the non-traded services were evidence of how the Government was treating consumers.

Ms Harney also said the claims by Fine Gael's Finance spokesman Richard Bruton that every household was being hit with mark-ups totalling €1,000 a year would have to be scrutinised.

Ms Harney insisted price freezes were not the answer to inflation and were actually counter-productive.

Meanwhile, further evidence emerged yesterday of consumers being hard hit on the prices front:-

* Parents are paying up to €1,000 a month for childcare.

* An Irish Farmers' Association survey has found shops are imposing markups of up to 100pc on the price of lamb.

* Supermarkets are selling seafood to customers for over ten times the price fishermen are getting to land the catch.

Kinsale trawler owner Sean Walsh said the price consumers were paying for fish was "horrendous" while many fishermen were finding it "harder and harder" to make ends meet because of the low prices they were being paid.

Gene McKenna and
Grainne Cunningham

Humphrey

I agree with Mary Harney. Shops and retailers simply wouldn't get away with it in the likes of Spain or France. I read somwhere that suppliers have actually lowered there prices to shops and yet shops keep increasing there prices..

Its up to the Irish People to stop being so apathetic towards this and drop the "Ah sure what can I do", "ah Its Grand" attitudes.

Humphrey.

rollover

Its up to the Irish People to stop being so apathetic towards this and drop the "Ah sure what can I do", "ah Its Grand" attitudes.

well,there is not much we as consumers can do..
its not the people at the front line of a business(barman,waiters, and the like)that make decisions on pricing..its senior management
it is partly the governments fault for imposing charges(eg..increases in excise duties,vat on alcohol)
inflation is currently 4.9% and is only perpetuated by businesses who seek to increase profit margins when tourists visit(ie..summer months) because tourists eventually go home

Scottish

The consumer has a role to play alright, but in a market characterised by cartels how is this possible? You can't shop really shop around for a lawyer, or an insurance company. Go from one pub to the next, and depending on its "target market" the prices are the same. As for retailers, regardless of the sector, they are joke. No competition at all. The only positive benefit of competition in this sector I've seen recently has been in the off-licence market since oddbins came in.

If I need to buy CD's, Software, Games, Small Hardware (computer memory, my digital camera etc) I go to the web, with that money then lost to the Irish economy. I bought a digital camera in Germany for €250 recently, that would have cost almost 1/3 more here, no matter how many shops I would have tried.

As a consumer, all I can do at the moment is decide not to buy, or try and buy overseas. And thats dangerous in an economy thats slowing down.

Cork

I think Mary Harney is right to a point. But we need more competion in various areas. But, Irish consumers need to become more savvy with regards to prices.

Humphrey

Rollover - of course the consumer has a major role to play if people dont pay the prices they will come down. There is always options. Shop online, go to tesco's for certain goods, markets, German SuperChains etc etc. You attitude that an individual cant make a diiference is similar to saying why should I vote it wont make a difference.

Scottish - What are you on about Cartels? You mean to say you cant shop around for cheaper insurance??? And that if you shop around you cant get Cheaper Solicitors!!! I know from once hand experience this is nonsense..

You two guys prosonify the irish consumer attitudes.

Fair enough the government is fueling inflation aswell but thats another issue..

nahdoic

If prices were my own fault, then I would be able to shop around to get a good deal. Guess what you can't cos there is none in a lot of sectors.

I wish Harney would stop wasting her time with this, and get on with totally re-working the irish litigation system. The payouts being given have to be slashed. It's not magic money, it doesn't just magically come from insurance companies, they charge us all for it.

Ireland has a compo culture and it's destroying us and ruining the standards of living for most people. And it completely de-incentises new start-ups to offer competition. How is a start-up, looking to bring in competition supposed to afford public liability insurance. We need actual leadership from the government - re-work the irish litigation system, it's not free money, we're all paying for it.

Humphrey

compo culture is being addressed and if they do what they plan to do when the government comes back into session it will be major step in curbing compo culture. The government seems to be getting it right on this one if they do what they have set out to do.

nahdoic ,maybe you are not looking in the right places or trying hard enough but I can frequently find good deals...

Scottish

"Scottish - What are you on about Cartels? You mean to say you cant shop around for cheaper insurance??? And that if you shop around you cant get Cheaper Solicitors!!! I know from once hand experience this is nonsense.."

My arse. What you call cheaper is still unbelievably, insultingly, high. All the banks, the insurers, the lawyers have a very cosy relationship. I know this from my experience buying a house here. As it turns out, I got my mortgage from bank of scotland, not through any patriotic reasons, but because they offered a better deal. Look at the reluctance to pass on the ECB rate cut. We should not compare locally all the time. What happens in Europe should be our benchmark.

As for insurance, the differences range from the staggering to the hugely over priced. Everyone focuses on cars, but why is the best price I can get for my house here over €600 a year and in the UK it would be about a 1/4 of that? Am I going to drive my house at insane speeds down country roads? No, I'm not. It sits there and I live in it. It wont fall down, but it might get a burst pipe. Over €600 a year. And I was quoted over €1000 in some places.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all the above businesses benefit from an unbelievably low level of corporation tax. But still the complain of rising costs. How bank of ireland can charge 18.9% for a credit card in the current environment is beyond me. But they and nearly all of the others do. Tesco are waking away from here with high profits, and low corporation tax. Ditto Vodafone, O2 etc etc etc.

There are some encouraging signs, but nowhere near enough. And any new entrant seems to settle into the high price environment quite quickly. My mortgage is a tracker, which tracks to within 1% of the ECB rate. In the UK, that same product tracks the Bank of England to within .5% - why the difference? Because they can.

The government are too weak and compromised to tackle any of this. Good work has been done in some areas, but we are still so far off the pace here its not funny. Telling us to shop around is like telling us to eat cake.

Trebor

hmm, it seems that she didn't say it was the consumers own fault.

www.onbusiness.ie

Lemming

Originally posted by Trebor
hmm, it seems that she didn't say it was the consumers own fault.

Well .. funnily enough, I heard something that sounded /remarkably/ like her voice on radio at lunchtime today saying that the consumer needed to "shop around" as if everytying would disappear if only we did this.

Shop a: product a = 20.00
Shop b: product a = 20.00
Shop c: product a = 20.00

All of the retailers look at what other retailers are flogging stuff for, and then just all jack their prices up thinkgin "if they can get this for it .. then so can we".

As for the pubs = cartel
the Insurance industry = cartel + half are owned by the same ****nig parent company :rolleyes:
the banks = cartel / "arrangement"

and so on so forth

Oh - I shop around alright. I shop around in anywhere BUT Ireland if I can help it. Just to give my own "f*ck you" to this despicable little country.

[rant]
There are times that I have nothing but absolute loathing and hatred for this country and everything that's wrong with it, and want to see nothing more than it utterly destroyed and wiped from the history of the world.
[/rant]

Victor

It the newspaper quote is correct, perhaps she should get ther own house in order first. "These rules will be enforced. Stiff penalties will apply for non-compliance" - Tánaiste. Four months later and there is mediocre compliance and no prosecutions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/0710/inflation.html

Inflation continues downward trend
July 10, 2003

(12:24) The annual rate of inflation fell for the fourth consecutive month in June, dropping to 3.5% from 3.7%.

The main factors contributing to the drop were falls in petrol and diesel prices, and a fall in clothing and footwear prices because of the summer sales.

However, housing, utilities, and hotel and restaurant prices increased.

According to figures released today by the Central Statistics Office, communications charges were up 1.1%, housing and utilities increased by 0.7%, clothing and footwear fell 1.6% and transport was down 0.4%.

Reacting to the figures Labour Spokesman on Enterprise, Trade and Employment Brendan Howlin said that the reduction 'allows no room for complacency in Government'.

Scottish

There are times that I have nothing but absolute loathing and hatred for this country and everything that's wrong with it, and want to see nothing more than it utterly destroyed and wiped from the history of the world.

Jesus - you need to go and live overseas for a while

I actually really like it here. If some of this stuff was sorted out, it would be an even better place to live. The thing I don't understand is that there seems to be a built in reflex to rip off your own.

MadsL

Would Mary like to explain how I can avoid the blatent rip-off that is the Irish banking system;

Banks have failed to pass on the benefit from a long line of interest rate cuts to tens of thousands of their overdraft, loan and credit card customers, it has emerged.

Front of todays Irish Times

Tazz T

I agree with Lemming. Cartels exist everywhere. For example, if I go for a pint at lunchtime in Baggot Street, every pub charges €3.90 for a pint of guinness, so I can't vote with my feet. I'm sure they get together and set the price. As for competition, everytime a competitor comes on the scene the Vintners Association just complains. It looks like Wetherspoons aren't coming here now, so that means cheap drink and food out the window.

As the consumer we can only do so much - like go to Lidl instead of Tescos. This week alone I've bought three PC/phone items from abroad over the Intenet because they're far cheaper and that's damaging the Irish economy. If Mrs Harney used her powers to stamp out anti-competitive practices, stop pandering to incumbents and encourage real competition, then we will vote with our feet.

Cork

Originally posted by MadsL
Would Mary like to explain how I can avoid the blatent rip-off that is the Irish banking system;


Front of todays Irish Times

Switching banks should be as easy as changing ones socks - it is not.

You had a major Irish opposition political party cribbing about Lidl & Aldi. We have unions cribbing about privatising bus routes and opening up a new terminal for Dublin airport.

I was in a newsajent today. Magazine prices are expensive here. We need more competion but we need to become more aware as consumers.

MadsL

What can we do.

1. Learn to make a complaint instead of just complain. Actually do so to the retailer concerned

2. Learn and use the law. If the law is broken, make a complaint . If the enforcers of the law do nothing, make a complaint about them.

3. Tell everyone you know about blatent rip-offs and encourage them to make a complaint.

4. Expect Customer Service. Goods and Services are often thrown at us at high prices like we should be grateful. We don't have to take this crap. Get over this famine/black babies in africa thing. Expect 1st class service and complain if you don't get it (or better a carefully disguised complaint masquerading as 'feedback')

5. Watch everyone involved in commerce. Buyer Beware - expect duplicity, lies, deceit, rip-offs. Find 'em. Report 'em. End 'em.

Trebor

Originally posted by MadsL
What can we do.

1. Learn to make a complaint instead of just complain. Actually do so to the retailer concerned

2. Learn and use the law. If the law is broken, make a complaint . If the enforcers of the law do nothing, make a complaint about them.

3. Tell everyone you know about blatent rip-offs and encourage them to make a complaint.

4. Expect Customer Service. Goods and Services are often thrown at us at high prices like we should be grateful. We don't have to take this crap. Get over this famine/black babies in africa thing. Expect 1st class service and complain if you don't get it (or better a carefully disguised complaint masquerading as 'feedback')

5. Watch everyone involved in commerce. Buyer Beware - expect duplicity, lies, deceit, rip-offs. Find 'em. Report 'em. End 'em.

bit off topic.

most of my family believe that all the big companies are doing their best to offer a good serive/product in a difficult economical country and that if they could lower the prices they would. :rolleyes:

oh the stick i have had to put up with when telling them that the company is doing the least possible in order to make a profit and that if they don't need to worry about word of mouth ( i.e. Eircom ) damaging their profits then they won't give a hoot about general joe public.

i agree with Lemming that the prices are all set up so that no matter where you go they will be the same if not higher. for instance i live about 45 mins from town (20 mins in bus corridor's my bolloc*k's) and to buy almost anything it cost's an extra €5 as that is what you might pay to get into town to pay for it their!

MadsL

for instance i live about 45 mins from town (20 mins in bus corridor's my bolloc*k's) and to buy almost anything it cost's an extra €5 as that is what you might pay to get into town to pay for it their!

and I'm off topic eh...really. :rolleyes:

/aside who is this guy?

nahdoic

compo culture is being addressed and if they do what they plan to do when the government comes back into session it will be major step in curbing compo culture. The government seems to be getting it right on this one if they do what they have set out to do.

It's well overdue. Harney has been making noise about this for so long and there were no results. In fairness, I don't know any of the complexities of the legal system, and I'm sure it is a mammoth task. So I wished she wouldn't waste her time with these statements, and get on with the real work that needs doing.

I think a lot of people, are quite disconnected from the huge knock on benefits sorting out our litigation system will have for them. It's destroying a lot of the entrepenurial spirit in this country. Lower prices almost across the board will be just one benefit. Almost every business and home/car owner has to pay ridiculous amounts of insurance. More home grown jobs and businesses will also be encouraged to develop.

Just get on with it!

Trebor

Originally posted by MadsL
and I'm off topic eh...really. :rolleyes:

/aside who is this guy?

sorry ment to say that the bit coming next was off topic not your post

was ment to say "i agree with Madsl" before the off topic bit.

anywho I am Trebor

Cork

Originally posted by Scottish
[B
The government are too weak and compromised to tackle any of this. Good work has been done in some areas, but we are still so far off the pace here its not funny. Telling us to shop around is like telling us to eat cake. [/B]

esterdays move to break up Aer Rianta & to encourage competetion has to be welcomed. It is being opposed by certain trade unions and "socialists".

We cannot crib about high prices and cthen crib about competition.

Scottish

As long as the "break up" doesn't lead to monopoly situation that is purely about private profit, which is what seems to happen when so calleed "competition" is introduced. If it takes some traffic out of Dublin airport and makes it a bit easier to use then great. I went on holiday a few weeks ago, and the mess at Dublin airport was unbelievable. People everywhere, no one knew what was going on. Nightmarish.

Tazz T

Absolutely right Scottish. The break up has to lead to competition or it's a waste of time.

Incidentally, I don't think Dublin airport is too bad compared to others I've been too. I think it's a matter of peak times.

Scottish

I used it on Sunday morning, and I have never seen an airport like it. I've done a fair bit of travelling, and nearest approximation I can get to the sheer number of people is travelling ordinary class on a train in India! It was that packed. At one point a queue was going out of the door, and no one knew where the head of the queue was. It was utter chaos. A lot of American tourists were open mouthed in shock. Kids crying, people shouting at security guards etc. It was horrible. Then my plane was delayed for 2 hours on the runway because the traffice was so heavy.

How do you get unexpected heavy traffic at an airport??

MadsL

How do you get unexpected heavy traffic at an airport??

Because Dublin is a 'unmanaged' airport - in most other airports it is the airport authority that dictate to the airlines what takeoff/landing slots they can have. At Dublin Aer Rianta have to work around the times that they are given by the airlines.

Incidently, this is the very reason my gf, (American, very well travelled, very Frequent flyer) loves Dublin scheduling. She travels a huge amount to London, and continental europe, and loves the fact that there are shedloads of flights 6am-7am, so she can get back the same day. She wouldn't change a thing.


edit: Am I off topic now?

aidanfagan

She is dead right. We do accept way too much rubbish in Ireland and pay too much for it as well (Esp From the UK and US etc) are stingy when they complain about prices and service, but they just won't take what we do. Petrol is a classic. We can see the price BEFORE we go in and we are generally just buy from the first one we see....Generally we don't shop around the quieter places, but go for the big names etc.....We are often our own worst enemy.

At the other extreme, Companies here are well able to shop around and demand the best price and service from THEIR suppliers, but will rip off their customers. Why, because they are used to doing business this way. ONLY customers can change this.
Its not just in Ireland that this happens by the way. Anyplace that customers don't care enough to complain, they usually get ripped off. Come on, if you are selling something, and 80% of people are willing to pay over the odds and say nothing.....what do YOU do??????

Now get out there and DEMAND good service, and don't buy without shopping around.

Aido

Victor

Originally posted by nahdoic
Almost every business and home/car owner has to pay ridiculous amounts of insurance. More home grown jobs and businesses will also be encouraged to develop.

It's not just that, competitiveness has gone across the board everybody thinks they are "worth it", when obviously they aren't. 300g Fig Rolls cost anything from €1.50 to €3.00+ :rolleyes:

ednwireland

i ahop around (currently 2 lowest price garages in donegal town are 78.5 and 78.9 per litre several cent less than other garages yet the other garages are full i was tlaking to the owner one day and apparently the petrol companies lend the money for the spar shops and then put the repayments on the petrol - the two cheap garages are attached to a car dealer and a car accessories shop) i shopped around for my house and car insurance and couldn't get anyone to quote me anywhere near my quotes - admittedlly my broker got me a better deal for my house due to a discount for going with our mortgage co.
recently went shopping for jeans ended eup in ballybofey (20min drive) as they were half the price than in donegal town (same brands)

my point is i don't always have the time to drive round half the county looking for cheap prices i use the net a lot to compare prices certainly any larger purchases but its teh smaller stuff that kills me i recently was in lidl and the video tapes were 2 euro more than a shop in town so you cant even rely on them although i normally do. i bought a pair of cycle shorts recently which differed in price - in the uk by £20 and the company did me free postage as well i won't tell you what the wanted to charge in ireland for them.

any mary antoinette harney is full of sh*t as usual she is tanaiste of agov. that has allowed everyone who they have control over put their prices up and then they have the nerve to complain about me not shopping round where is the insuurance reform not being delayed by vested interests somewhere is it. anyway end rant

am i unusual, doesn't everyone do this

aidanfagan

I Hear you about not always having the time to shop around, but the truth is that its not really the Governments fault. There isn't a government in the world who tries to control the price of everything. THe Communists tried to do it but it just does not work, because Businesses (in every country) will find ways around it. eg in Sweden they control the Rent that landlords charge.....Sounds great. Only snag is that the rents are so low that nobody wants to be a landlord, so there are way fewer places to rent than there are tenants....Guess what happens. When tenants move out, they can charge the new tenants (presumably under the table) up to €15,000 "key money" to sign them up for moving in.
In the end of the day its ALL about supply and demand, and what I do blame the Government for is not encouraging more SUPPLY, ie More competition, by encouraging more foreign companies in. They can do this by abolishing the daft rules that are keeping them out, like limits on the size of their shops, and the ban on "Below cost selling) Of course the small shops will protest like mad, and say that they are all going to go out of business, but again the truth is that the good ones will survive, and will supply the convenience things that people need, and are willing to pay a bit more for. Your example of the small shop that was cheaper than Lidl, is absolute proof that they can even offer service and sometimes better prices as well!!!!
Anyay competition WORKS. Just take a look at all the countries who allow free competition. In fairness to Mary Harney (I have no party affiliation BTW), the PDs in general are all for competition, and free markets. I think its the establishment with links to business, (We all know who I'm talking about) that are stalling this the whole way. They crying crocodile tears about local businesses closing . etc. etc.
They are the people to blame, and in the meantime keep shopping around.

RainyDay

It is very rare that I would agree with Ms Harney, but she hit the nail on the head this time.

National Irish Bank are offering free bank charges, but most prefer to moan about AIB charges instead.

AIB have a 0% six-month credit card rate for balance transfers, but most prefer to moan about the rates they are paying.

Every restaurant has a price list/menu outside. If you don't like their prices, don't go in. Every pub has a price list on display, if you don't like their prices, don't buy.

There are a small number of solicitors around who have broken the cartel and offer fixed price conveyancing at low ( < 1k euro plus outlays) costs, but most prefer to use their family solicitor, not raise the dirty subject of money up front & moan when they get the bill.

There are problems with competition in some sectors, but until we, the consumers, start voting with our feet, retailers are still going to charge those high prices. And as long as we keep paying the high prices, sure they would be crazy to do anything else.