autonmous space opened in dublin in protest at hosuing crisis

chewy

an autonmous space ahs been opened at 41 parnell sq west,
a building laying derelict for 11 years it to be turned into a free communtiy space by its owners,

do you support it?

come dow n to parnell square during week and support it

read about it on indymedia.ie

thanks

acs

DadaKopf

Sounds interesting. I'll take a look next weekend if it's still around.

Turnip

What housing crisis? And why would anyone want to spend one minute of this lovely summer in a derelict building watching a bunch of smelly hippies spazzing out on drugs and talking a load of rubbish about god only knows what?

Sparks

What housing crisis?

That would be the near-impossibility of purchasing a house unless you already own one to sell or your family name is Smurfit or O'Reilly...

(Not to mention the total impossibility of buying a well-made house for less than what used to be considered the amount of money that you had to have in the bank to never have to work again...)

Turnip

You're probably harking back to Ireland's golden age when a quarter of the workforce was unemployed are you? Yes, great times they were. The answer is simple, if you work harder or get a better job, then you can afford a decent house.

Sparks

Ah, turnip. Ireland's answer to Reganomics...

gandalf

Originally posted by Turnip
You're probably harking back to Ireland's golden age when a quarter of the workforce was unemployed are you? Yes, great times they were.

Well Turnip given the current morons time in charge it won't be long before we get back to those days now will it.

The answer is simple, if you work harder or get a better job, then you can afford a decent house.

Hmm yes life is simple etc. The basic fact is most people on standard wages (yours truely included) cannot afford a house/flat/cupboard because of rampant profiteering. I applaud anyone that highlights this fact. The whole planning and housing situation in this country is in a mess and it has been created by the very attitude that you have displayed here turnip.

Gandalf.

(btw if I suspect your trying to troll you'll regret it )

bonkey

Originally posted by Turnip
The answer is simple, if you work harder or get a better job, then you can afford a decent house.

Looking at your recent posts, Im inclined to ask if you're on a trolling spree to liven things up around here....

Anyway....assuming you arent....

I work in IT. Before I emigrated 2 years ago, I was in a relatively well-paid IT position. From what I can recall, I was statistically in the top 10% of earners in the country.

I couldn't get a mortgage to buy a house, because 2.5 times my salary (or even 3.5 times) would still me a significant 5-digit sum short of the asking price of anything in the Dublin area.

Work harder? I dont think so. I think 60-hour weeks were plenty thanks.

Get a better job? You think everyone can earn into what is currently classed around the top 5% or less??? You think they could do this without inflation?

Anyone who believes that houses in Ireland are still affordable to "the common man" is joking themselves.

jc

flav0rflav

What if I don't want to purchase a house? No crisis?

Maybe we're moving into a new economic model where the majority do not own their home, a la some continental countries.

Beruthiel

Originally posted by flav0rflav
What if I don't want to purchase a house? No crisis?

Maybe we're moving into a new economic model where the majority do not own their home, a la some continental countries.

Yes more people do rent their homes on the continent, they live in places you can call a home, for as long as they live for a reasonable rent which they can afford to pay, the same cannot be said for this country.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by chewy
an autonmous space ahs been opened at 41 parnell sq west,
a building laying derelict for 11 years it to be turned into a free communtiy space by its owners,

read about it on indymedia.ie

thanks

acs

I think this is a good idea. However, if it's on Indymedia.ie, it's not worth reading about.

DadaKopf

A friend of mine got a call from the house a few hours ago. Sounded as if the Gards were just about in the process of evecting them so it looks like the party's over.

Sand

A friend of mine got a call from the house a few hours ago. Sounded as if the Gards were just about in the process of evecting them so it looks like the party's over.

How can they turf them out if it was turned into a community space by its owners? I assume they were beaten savagely by the cackling guards :rolleyes:

As for housing, Im in the process of purchasing an appartment and its not the mortgages that are a problem, but the actual deposits, fees and extra costs associated with getting a place liveable - theyre immense in the short to medium term.

Ireland (i.e. Greater Dublin which is practically in meath by now and still expanding ) needs to and possibly will move to a culture of appartment dwellers rather than suburban homeowners - this assumes of course that rents come down, but that will only happen as mortgages become that bit less costly - highly unlikely.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by bonkey
Get a better job? You think everyone can earn into what is currently classed around the top 5% or less??? You think they could do this without inflation?

Indeed not, and if they did, house prices would simply rise to compensate unless builders ramped up their output significantly.

I read a while back that in Ireland we are underhoused. There are a lot less houses to go around per head of population compared to other EU countries so whether you rent or buy you are always paying over the odds.

JustHalf

Ireland is crazy.

It's very difficult to buy a house these days. And I'd rather not pay rent on from a pension.

Our economic situation is untenable.

Paddy20

Turnip,

I simply can not take you seriously, and I thought the Irish constitution stated that all citizens of the Irish Republic were entitled too a roof over their heads.

sceptre

Originally posted by Paddy20
I thought the Irish constitution stated that all citizens of the Irish Republic were entitled too a roof over their heads.

Nope - closest thing is Article 45 ("Social Policy") and that's nice and vague. It also makes specific reference to the article being a general reference for the Oireachtas only and makes them the sole interpreters of it.

potlatch

Irish Constitution:

Article 41.2.1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without whichthe common good cannot be achieved.
2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that
mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to
engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the
home.

Article 45.2. The State shall, in particular, direct its policy towards securing:

i. That the citizens (all of whom, men and women
equally, have the right to an adequate means of
livelihood) may through their occupations find the
means of making reasonable provision for their
domestic needs.

ii. That the ownership and control of the material
resources of the community may be so distributed
amongst private individuals and the various
classes as best to subserve the common good.

iii. That, especially, the operation of free competition
shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in
the concentration of the ownership or control of
essential commodities in a few individuals to the
common detriment.

iv. That in what pertains to the control of credit the
constant and predominant aim shall be the
welfare of the people as a whole.

v. That there may be established on the land in
economic security as many families as in the
circumstances shall be practicable.

U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

Paddy20

potlatch,

Exactly, and thanks for putting the record straight. Now if only we lived in a Country where our own constitution was respected and adhered too?...;)

sceptre

Originally posted by Paddy20
potlatch,

Exactly, and thanks for putting the record straight. Now if only we lived in a Country where our own constitution was respected and adhered too?...;)

It doesn't guarantee anyone a roof over their head (if you went and looked up art 45 properly as I suggested you'd have seen that).

The UN declaration of human rights isn't a guarantee of anything anywhere so forget article 25 quoted above (it's a nice aspiration, it's one I agree with but you can't enforce it in Irish law in the way you might like)

In the Irish constitution:

Article 41 (quoted by potlatch for some unknown reason) doesn't guarantee anyone a home - it says that chicks are great in the home and shouldn't have to work outside it (lovely).


Article 45 as quoted:

Try including the introduction to article 45 because it's a little relevant:

The principles of social equality set forth in this Article are intended for the general guidance of the Oireachtas. The application of those principles in the making of laws shall be the care of the Oireachtas exclusively, and shall not be cognisable by any Court under any of the provisions of this Constitution

That translates as:
Article 45 is a nice namby-pamby article that legally means nothing unless the Dail and Senate say it does and specify how, when and why so don't be placing any reliance on it whatever because the Courts won't.

No rights to a roof over anyone's head then unless you can find a specific proviso in EU treaties saying so.

I'm not saying it's right - I'm saying it's the way it is. If you feel strongly enough about it, complain that it should be so rather than non-enforcement of a constitutional right that doesn't exist.

Paddy20

sceptre,

I am not claiming too be some sort of housing or Irish Constitution expert. However, I seem too remember reading somewhere that it is illegal* for any Local Authority to leave a family or individual citizen homeless?..

Therefore, I presume this equates too the right of all citizens to a roof over their heads!.

sceptre

Originally posted by Paddy20
I am not claiming too be some sort of housing or Irish Constitution expert.

Ah, I appreciate that - you didn't claim it to be otherwise.

What you asked though was:

Originally posted by Paddy20
I thought the Irish constitution stated that all citizens of the Irish Republic were entitled too a roof over their heads.

... which is why I answered that.

I don't know diddly about local authority regulations (or any Housing Acts that our lords and masters may have passed) - not my field and all that - so I'll leave that question to someone who might.

Sparks

What you've both ignored is that Horgan v. Ireland ruled that the government can treat constitutional articles as "aspirational in nature". In other words, they can say "gee, that'd be nice but it's not feasible" and proceed to ignore it.

sceptre

Originally posted by Sparks
What you've both ignored is that Horgan v. Ireland ruled that the government can treat constitutional articles as "aspirational in nature". In other words, they can say "gee, that'd be nice but it's not feasible" and proceed to ignore it.

Oh, give me some credit:)

I didn't ignore the Horgan case at all.

Article 45 pretty much states that the whole thing is aspirational. It certainly states that it isn't binding. Hence, taken on its own, the Kearns judgement in Horgan isn't relevant as nothing has changed with the interpretation of Article 45 by the ruling in the case.

As opposed to say (picking any one at all) Article 12 which isn't aspirational, is nice and straightforward from beginning to end and won't be reinterpreted at all by any court.

I wrote a long response on Horgan and the possible interpretations of Article 29 - I've dumped it before pressing "submit" as it would throw the thread totally off-topic. Let's just say that the judgement in Horgan is irrelevant to this discussion as it has always been clear that Art 45 is at best aspirational and a guideline, at worst something that can be totally ignored at the whim of the Oireachtas. It's always been that way because there's a paragraph specifically stating that. The Horgan ruling doesn't change that in any way - it wouldn't have changed it if the Horgan judgement had gone the other way either. Hence, Horgan is irrelevant for the purposes of examination of Article 45.

So I didn't ignore Horgan. I left it out because it wasn't relevant to the specifics of Article 45 anyway.

Victor

/me writes to the derelict buildings section in the corpo.